News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by the_duke on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @07:08AM (#21812717)
In today's world of race to the finish (/ bottom) journalism, I think it should be mandatory for all publications to have an addendum to each article, which contains:

* list of sources of information and original research conducted ( including names of interviewees, only anonymized with a justification, links, etc )

* a sign-off by a journalist (note: not supposed to imply responsibility or liability for accuracy of information, only that the addendum is representative of the research done)

* A hash of a archive file containing all collected information (including interview transcripts/notes, etc) with a responsibility to keep this archive for X years and to provide it to regulators on request; info can be anonymized/redacted as deemed necessary

Combine this with a fine for the publication if they failed to verify information with a reasonable effort, and it could do a lot of good for the world of news.

Of course all regulation comes with pitfalls, and there are many with this idea, especially with the fine aspect. Probably enough to make it undesirable.

But it is the only one I have to improve things.

Edit:

Since this has been mentioned: it's possible to allow anonymous sources, but eg with the rule that anonymization has to be justified and may not be abused.

But this feeds into the biggest problem with the whole idea: a fine can give regulators too much power to punish publications arbitrarily.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by ajsnigrutin on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:37AM (#21813271)
I'd be happy just if they were forbidden to change articles after publishing, and not say that.

Because currently, they post some bullshit news and create some random outrage. Then someone points at some bullshit claim in their article, and they just quietly change the article (remove the claim, add "allegedly", etc.), and act as nothing was wrong. Or in worst case scenario, they quietly remove the whole article.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by stoicShell on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:26AM (#21814389)
I think it's the same when we ship beta software to users and then expect the first batch to essentially debug it — then comes the proverbial ".1" patch which fixes most glaring issues. (as if they weren't obvious in the first place)

Now why do we do that in software? because "agile", cost, "let's ship and risk breaking some things and see what happens? We'll fix things later in some update, on a need-to basis"

Well I think journalism has gone the same road: "let's publish first and risk breaking some truths and see what happens? We'll fix things later in some update, on a need-to basis"

Can't really blame the business entities themselves. I wholeheartedly agree with GP though, there definitely needs to be more regulation and parent's point is one of the most salient target for that — it's disingenuous at best to silently update/remove, not to mention actually false from a documentation standpoint, it skews history basically. Very dystopian. News articles should be versioned exactly like git, we should be able to diff each public update.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by trickstra on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @11:49AM (#21815425)
Yes, but you can still find the .0 version in the github. I'd be totally OK if the news were on github and I could easily see how the article looked a while ago (extra credits for git blame feature).
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by davvolun on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:00PM (#21815575)
It immediately irks me that I'm defending agile here, but part of the point of agile is that the developer doesn't really know what the end user needs, so it's, in theory, better to get a minimum viable product out that meets the user's need, then refine on subsequent releases, rather than spend years working on releasing something perfect that it turns out doesn't fill the user's need.

From a similar perspective for journalism, I think there's an argument that can be made that it's better to get most of the information out right away, even if some of it is inaccurate, and then correct the inaccuracies later, rather than wait until every piece is confirmed and edited perfectly to release the information. Argument to extremes, think of a hurricane or volcano explosion.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by stoicShell on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:42PM (#21816173)
You make great points and I agree with your take on agile — I actually mentioned "cost" to indicate that reality was deviating from the 'ideal' agile approach, when it stops being "the right thing to do" — buggy, etc. — because you're trying to meet some arbitrary deadline or favor marketing, please mgmt, etc.

Likewise, I think it's fair to assume the economic competition between news outlets may push some to be too aggressive in shipping fast, too fast.

And you know what, deep down I think it's OK, as long as you don't falsely advertise what you're doing. "We want this <content> (whether code, news) in the hands of our customers asap, so we're releasing it now; but be aware it's not 100% guaranteed until scrutinized by the crowd and corrected accordingly."

I'd love to have a choice between some "fast news shippers" and some "slow, vetted pieces". I think there's room for both and everything in between. Just don't be disingenuous about it, and if it takes regulation to enforce that, then so be it — every legitimately regulated activity pretty much brings it on themselves, give or take some political latency.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by TeMPOraL on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:33PM (#21816902)
> I think there's an argument that can be made that it's better to get most of the information out right away, even if some of it is inaccurate, and then correct the inaccuracies later

But parent's aren't really talking about mistakes, like errors in software. They're talking about lies.

Sure, go ahead and get all the information you have out right away. But qualify their accuracy level. There's a difference between "Foo frobnicated a Baz", vs. "a certain quux told us[0] that Foo frobnicated a Baz" (with [0] leading to details like the top post mentions). The former is stating a possibly inaccurate information as if it was a sure fact. Essentially, it's lying. The latter form lets the reader understand the degree of uncertainty involved, and choose how much they're willing to believe it.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by JadeNB on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:48PM (#21816271)
> From a similar perspective for journalism, I think there's an argument that can be made that it's better to get most of the information out right away, even if some of it is inaccurate, and then correct the inaccuracies later, rather than wait until every piece is confirmed and edited perfectly to release the information. Argument to extremes, think of a hurricane or volcano explosion.

Following the argument to the same extreme, it's a bad idea to get out the information "there is a hurricane or volcano explosion due south of you" immediately, and to wait until the flight north begins to issue the correction "actually, it's due north of you."

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by davvolun on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @04:29PM (#21819071)
But I don't think you would disagree the following is worthwhile:

"There is a hurricane, and we're hearing initial, unconfirmed reports that it's to the south. We want to stress these are unconfirmed at this time, etc etc"

Which is something that would traditionally be broadcast in an emergency.

Obviously, we're really talking about an extreme hypothetical, but as long as it's clear the information may not be complete or accurate at the time of reading, I see no problem (as long as it is eventually accurate).

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by blackflame on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:02PM (#21816459)
No, Journalism and Software are not the same. Would you make the same argument that software on the 737 Max should be shipped and then fixed later? Absolutely not. Journalists need to understand that what they write has real-world impact and can actually lead to lot of unnecessary anguish if they publish things that are not true. Truth should always be paramount to speed in journalism. You can't always correct your mistakes as a journalist because most people only see 1 version of your draft and don't wait around for later corrections before jumping to conclusions.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by davvolun on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @04:22PM (#21818988)
> Would you make the same argument that software on the 737 Max should be shipped and then fixed later?

No, I wouldn't, but that goes to why not ALL software should be agile, not that it's best to have some journalism be "agile."

I was going to mention space flight regarding software mistakes (https://itsfoss.com/a-floating-point-error-that-caused-a-dam...), but figured it was more of a digression than it was on-topic.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by blackflame on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @05:37PM (#21819712)
But all journalism has the potential to become viral and once that happens you will never be able to fix the damage you've already done.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by blackflame on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:22PM (#21820884)
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Winston S. Churchill
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by stoicShell on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @08:08AM (#21824405)
Allow me to reply, I think you've misunderstood parent's point:

- there is a spectrum of "importance" to software: a shopping app crashing is generally less critical than medical software crashing during surgery.

- there is a spectrum of "importance" to the news: surely the benefit and damage of reporting on Netflix's latest show is lesser than reporting on an incoming tsunami.

If you are warned upon fast release of a piece of news of "lesser impact" that it's "unverified", "untrusted source", etc., then you get to choose the impact: you either wait for further confirmation or act now, that's on you.

Conversely, for the "important" part of the spectrum, then we all agree that like critical software, it must be vetted and validated before release. There's no question about that.

As for where to draw the line, it's anywhere each particular new outlet feels it should be; but the mention of where we are on that spectrum should be at least industry-wide ethics for the Press, and enforced by regulation if necessary (see other comments for great suggestions about how to indicate trustworthiness of information, extent of research, sources, etc).

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by blackflame on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @12:30PM (#21827158)
As a journalist, you don't get to determine importance because you don't what people value, who is going to read your stuff, and who they are going to tell about it. A large number of people think Kim Kardashian is the most important news. I think it's you who misunderstands.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by EpicEng on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:16PM (#21815790)
>Can't really blame the business entities themselves.

Why not? Why is it acceptable that the profit motive trump everything else? These people play a critical role in our society. Obviously they have to stay in business, but I'm not going to give them a pass on foregoing their duty just because they want to make more money.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by ryanmercer on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:18PM (#21815814)
Or better, make them leave the original text and include the correction. Publications that were repeat offenders would quickly build a bad reputation.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by logfromblammo on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @11:49AM (#21815413)
It'd be fine if published journalism had source control.

Just look at the revision history.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by fauigerzigerk on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:24AM (#21814370)
This could be an area where the much hyped block chain technology actually makes sense.

But don't ask me what the incentives would have to be for journalistic organisations to adopt the technology.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by stoicShell on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:35AM (#21814496)
First thing would be to de-correlate this 'news blockchain' entirely from any sort of 'coin', 'token', whatever 'currency' thing — a blockchain is a distributed database, period, 'crypto-coins' being just one application for this storage.

There are several ways to do it then but a standard would likely emerge, as in: "we <publisher> commit to mirror-publish our content to ThePressChain."

You'd likely store only text (say the raw html) on the blockchain though, so using links for pictures etc; which implies your CDN is archived publicly for later retrieval (I suppose a deal with archive.org or equivalent is in order to bolster such a paradigm).

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by DSMan195276 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:54AM (#21814731)
What you're describing already exists - just have news groups publish to `github` or some other `git` server (They could even host their own), and then anybody who wants can clone it.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by trickstra on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @11:52AM (#21815465)
They are not really eager to provide such searchability, but we can always scrape them and save in a git repo ourselves.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by blawson on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @11:12AM (#21814964)
Agree with this!

I’ve been thinking it would have to start with publications that aren’t the massive sources, using this as an advantage, and see the reward of subscribers as big publications get caught for these sorts of practices.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by lbenes on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:23AM (#21813663)
I've seen this accusation thrown out there on social media a few times now. When I've asked for examples, no one been able to provide a list showing that this is actually a systemic problem. With resources like the Internet Archive it should be trivial to prove that this really a problem. Can you back up your claims?

Journalists are people and make mistakes. But overall, respected institutions like NYT, WSJ, WaPo, and Bloomberg show good journalistic integrity and print retractions in both print and online.

If you really are seeing this problem regularly, i suggest you find better sources for your news. Above all avoid getting it from social media. The actual fake news that is rampant there is a much, much bigger threat to our society than the few bad apples or mistakes behind the problem you are describing.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by viridian on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:07AM (#21814137)
You cite the Wall Street Journal as a respected institution, but I know I've seen them do this. Part of the problem with this type of thing is that publications often go out of their way to erase the existence of an aritcle if they intend to delete it.

Here's an example of an articles scrubbed from existence, including from the internet archive:

https://web.archive.org/web/20170301000000*/http://www.wsj.c...

http://www.wsj.com/article_email/hillary-clinton-vs-foia-144...

It's also unavailable, but searchable via google. Google simply shows a 404 page from the WSJ as the top result. The WSJ has never formally retracted this either.

Now since this is the WSJ, obviously the article was copied wholesale and pasted into blogs and the like regardless, so it can't be completely scrubbed. As a matter of fact, a search for:

"The filing was a response to a FOIA lawsuit brought in March by conservative organization Citizens United" will bring up many blogs with the full text of the article, but that doesn't change the fact that WSJ silently scrubbed the article from the internet archive, their own website, and the google cache.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by datashow on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:27AM (#21814396)
Funny, I searched "The filing was a response to a FOIA lawsuit brought in March by conservative organization Citizens United", and the first result in google is from here: https://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clinton-vs-foia-1443136...

Aslo, if you search "url:http://www.wsj.com/article_email/" , you won't find any active link at all. It seems they have changed their website structure.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by viridian on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @11:59AM (#21815566)
Strange, the first result for me is the one I linked. Same if I search the name of the article. Google doesn't show me yours at all.

Happy to admit I was wrong about this though. I only remember this article because it came up in a thread about Internet Archive removing content sometimes without any explanation.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by fredophile on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:40AM (#21813840)
Check out this twitter account for some examples.

https://mobile.twitter.com/nyt_diff?lang=en

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by ramblerman on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:56AM (#21814011)
Those institutions are not the ones they were 10-20 years ago. And with less and less revenue streams they have resorted to clickbait like the rest.

I suggest you wake up to the reality of modern 'journalism'.

WaPo just recently messed up completely with the death of Baghdadi (the isis leader). Titling the article about his assassination as "Austere religious scholar dies at 48"

They had to change it 3 more times till they actually mentioned that he was assassinated. And that was just a mistake.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by Clubber on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:21AM (#21814330)
This is absolutely correct, it's shitty that people are downvoting you for it. Matt Taibbi even said as much on Joe Rogan.

Journalists aren't some deity to be put on a pedestal. They are employees that work for a corporation, usually a really big one. That corporation's business model is dying and they are cutting costs to survive and have been for 20 years.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by ht85 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:03AM (#21814073)
What about this [1] ? It is from "respected" WaPo, and this is one of the most mind blowing examples.

You might not want to go through the 1h30 rant from Richard Lewis, so feel free to skip to 31:00 and 34:30 for the content of the original article.

I really don't know what to make of this. I just can't imagine what would prompt people to write and then actually publish this.

You can read the comments on the article [2], there is no errata on the article and I haven't seen any official response from the Washington Post.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fay_X1Cu9Uc

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/abu-bakr-al-...

Edit: Actually there is an official response, at 39:20, a tweet (sigh) which might be even more scandalous than that headline

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by bragh on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @11:49AM (#21815422)
Retractions are kind of a bandaid. They should not even be needed if journalists did their due diligence. Worst case I personally saw was a claim by a journalism lecturer that a small news site was alt-right from its inception and wrote a long screed lambasting the site - no, it wasn't, it got sold to a different owner a couple of years after creation because the original owners could not monetize it.

They even got the year of the creation of the site wrong. So, a person teaching journalism didn't even bother running a WHOIS query and spending 2 EUR to run a query against business registry. If that is the level of the teachers, then what can you expect from the people they taught?

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by excursionist on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:21AM (#21814321)
I see this happening pretty much every day for political news. I don't keep track of a list, but here is a recent example:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/13/us/politics/bernie-sander...

> Mr. Uygur, a longtime supporter of Mr. Sanders, has also disparaged former President Barack Obama on his show, argued that bestiality should be legal and hosted white supremacist figures, including David Duke. In one clip that circulated on Twitter, Mr. Duke ends an interview by saying, “I am not, what you call a racist,” to which Mr. Uygur replies sarcastically, “No, of course not.”

They added the word 'sarcastically' and also added this after:

> Mr. Uygur called the clip a “complete smear” that had been taken out of context from a combative one-hour interview in which he pushed back on Mr. Duke.

In reality, NYT published a smear about Cenk Uygur, claiming he was supporting and agreeing with this white supremacist David Duke. This was a straight up lie, since Cenk spent the entire interview criticizing and arguing with David Duke, not agreeing with him at all. This caused an outrage among Cenk's supporters, and NYT quietly updated their article so that now it says almost the opposite of the original! Also, note that the smear was published after Cenk decided to run for Congress and the reporter knew that the clip used to support the 'Cenk agrees with David Duke' smear was out of context. [1]

[1] https://www.mediaite.com/news/ny-times-corrects-report-on-ce...

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by manfredo on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @03:02PM (#21818093)
The Cenk Uygur situation is part of a broader trend I observe where traditional media outlets have a highly negative bias, to the point that it often ventures into the realm of fabrication, towards news and people in new media. News distributed via YouTube and social media and similar are an existential threat to the traditional news publications, and the thus there exists a fundamental conflict of interest when the latter covers the former.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by Defenestresque on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:15PM (#21816662)
You mentioned WaPo. Here is an article[0] about WaPo publishing a story about "Russian hackers infiltrating a US electrical grid." In addition to the article being inaccurate, WaPo edited the copy several times to correct major errors of fact without adding an editorial note and refused to explain what led them to their incorrect conclusions.

The article is a bit too long to accurately summarise, but essentially WaPo published a story under the following headline: “Russian hackers penetrated U.S. electricity grid through a utility in Vermont, U.S. officials say.”

>The lead sentence offered “A code associated with the Russian hacking operation dubbed Grizzly Steppe by the Obama administration has been detected within the system of a Vermont utility, according to U.S. officials” and continued “While the Russians did not actively use the code to disrupt operations of the utility, according to officials who spoke on condition of anonymity in order to discuss a security matter, the penetration of the nation’s electrical grid is significant because it represents a potentially serious vulnerability.”

This is at best a deeply misleading intro. The malware was found on a laptop not connected to the grid. The allegation that "Russian hackers penetrated the electrical grid" because they found tools which once may have been developed by Russians is about as accurate as me concluding that a hypothetical murderer was American because the murder weapon was an American-made AR-15.

There are several more concerning parts to the story but alas, I'm on mobile and have slacked off long enough.

I don't buy into the "MSM are knowing purveyors of fake news because profit!" but humans make mistakes and the desire of mainstream newspapers to beat bloggers in timeliness and pageviews can ultimately lead to standards slipping even among writers who would never knowingly publish a false story.

[0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevleetaru/2017/01/01/fake-ne...

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by caseysoftware on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @02:12PM (#21817443)
I'll suggest an alternative theory.

You know how absurd and wrong the Russia/powergrid story is specifically because this is your industry. If this wasn't your industry, you would read it, not have the understanding and experience to critique, and therefore probably believe it.. even if it was later retracted. The same applies to us reading about other fields.

My wife was a Capital Hill reporter in DC. Quite often, she had an hour or two to turn around a story on a hearing that just occurred on a topic she didn't know. Now multiply that by 4, 5, or 10 times each day.

It doesn't take maliciousness, just incompetence and/or ignorance at scale.

Michael Crichton named this:

"Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them."

Ref: http://larvatus.com/michael-crichton-why-speculate/

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by blackflame on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:17PM (#21816690)
Here is an article from CNN criticizing NYT on their terribly botched Kavanaugh story recently. https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/16/media/new-york-times-kavanaug...
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by danso on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @02:32PM (#21817700)
I am as journalist-sympathetic as anyone on here, but even I would agree with the previous commenter's sentiment. Minimization of errors is an old and persistent problem in journalism, and the reasons for this can be relatively innocuous – e.g. general incompetence and complacency; not only in making the error, but also not having a system in place to collect and evaluate feedback/complaints from readers, nor to adequately disseminate a correction if one has been made – to outright dishonesty and cowardice (errors are generally a stain on a journalist's professional career).

The best argument that this is a systemic problem is to simply point out the lack of systemic accountability: as people have pointed out, no major news site has a diff/version history (even though most content management systems have some kind of version tracking), which would be the bare minimum (and best return on value) for digital publishers who prioritize accountability.

(The closest thing is newsdiffs.org, but that's an independent site [0])

If you want a real, recent error that illustrates the low importance of media corrections, I can give you one from this past week: when the New York Times erroneously reported that the Trump administration issued an executive order that would "define Judaism as a nationality". Here's a relevant excerpt from the earliest Internet Archive version of the article [1]:

> Mr. Trump’s order will declare that Judaism may be considered a national origin.

To say that this article caused a violent orgasm of Twitter fury and shock would be a vast understatement; you can search for tweets quote-tweeting the original @nytpolitics tweet to see for yourself. [2].

A few hours later, the NYT article had been significantly updated [3], with no correction or comment by the main NYT social media accounts, or by the individual reporters' Twitters (which are both very active). This is how the aforementioned excerpt was changed (and how it currently is as of today):

> Mr. Trump’s order will have the effect of embracing an argument that Jews are a people or a race with a collective national origin in the Middle East, like Italian Americans or Polish Americans

If the significance of the change isn't self-evident, then this tweet thread+article goes into detail about how big of a clusterfuck the original NYT article was [4].

To my knowledge, the NYT has said nothing about the mistake or the silent correction. Neither have the reporters. And as much outrage as the original article caused, it was all quickly forgotten (even faster than usual) because the mass shooting at the kosher market [5] and the UK elections the next day.

To me, this incident is emblematic of how their accountability is systemically lackadaisical. It's undeniable that the NYT does make corrections, but we only know of the errors that were noticed and were officially corrected. By definition, we can't easily know the errors that were never noticed, or were silently fixed.

In this situation, we have an error that is as egregious and infuriating as one can imagine in today's politics (Trump + executive authority + anti-Semitism + Israel v. Palestine). But also, this is a serious error that ultimately had no consequences, because the original report was attributed to anonymous sources (i.e. no reputation damage) and the error involved matters of abstract policy and political grandstanding.

If the error did cause damage, such as defaming a public official, or causing an angry protest that turned into a riot, then I'm certain the NYT would issue a correction, just as it did recently with its misleading report re: Cenk Uygur and David Duke (albeit after 3 days of complaints from Uygur and his supporters) [6]. But regardless of whether there are aggrieved parties, news organizations should be making corrections solely because they value truth and accountability. That the NYT has so completely and brazenly refused to acknowledge its massive, noticeable fuckup (which, besides the error, indicates a real flaw in sourcing) means that their correction policy should be regarded as arbitrary and unserious.

tl;dr: if they didn't make a correction for an error this big and noticeable, imagine how reluctant they are to issue corrections for errors much less noticeable and/or controversial.

[0] http://newsdiffs.org/

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/opinion/sunday/article-ch...

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20191210221006/https://www.nytim...

[2] https://twitter.com/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fnyt...

[3] https://web.archive.org/web/20191211010003/https://www.nytim...

[4] https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/120483406506251468...

[5] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/12/12/jersey-city...

[6] https://twitter.com/nytpolitics/status/1206722302416687110

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by gamblor956 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @04:12PM (#21818898)
The NYT article was correct.

Title VI of the Civil Rights Act applies to discrimination on the basis of nationality, color, or race.

By using Title VI, the Trump administration defined Jews as a race, color, or nationality. However, as Jews come in many races and colors already, the logical conclusion was that the Trump administration was defining Judaism as a nationality.

Additional support for this comes from the fact the order adopts the IHRA definition of what it means to be anti-Semitic, which includes among other things, criticism of the state of Israel.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by danso on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @04:42PM (#21819208)
No, it was not correct. You can read the executive order for yourself: https://jewishinsider.com/2019/12/exclusive-a-first-look-at-...

And I again recommend this thread from Yair Rosenberg: https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/120457682761800499...

I posted the relevant original excerpt and what it was changed to. It is unequivocally different, and such a substantive change almost always necessitates a clarification if not a correction.

That was only one part of the article that was changed. The article's subhed/deck was also completely changed:

https://web.archive.org/web/20191210221006/https://www.nytim...

> The president’s action will define Judaism as a nationality, not just a religion, and empower the Education Department to withhold money from institutions that tolerate anti-Israel movements.

https://web.archive.org/web/20191211010003/https://www.nytim...

> The president’s action will protect Judaism under civil rights law and empower the Education Department to withhold money from institutions that tolerate anti-Israel movements.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by gamblor956 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @11:33PM (#21821825)
I did read the executive order. It refers to Title VI, which works the way I described in my comment.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by smt88 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @07:27AM (#21812799)
Well-respected publications have internal checks and balances that do all these things for investigative stories already. You seem not to know enough about how the journalism industry has solved these issues to make a proposal.

The system does work fairly well. Screw-ups of investigations and scoops are big news because they're rare among serious journalistic outfits.

No individual journalist wants to be known for getting a story wrong, so incentives are pretty strong to begin with.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by joshlegs on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:03AM (#21814072)
I like how OP commenter is essentially arguing that the government should regulate journalism, which fundamentally misunderstands the role of journalists -- that is, it is a direct check and balance on the government, except that it relies on the free market for competitive regulation. A journalism outlet which consistently gets things wrong SHOULD fail. Trying to regulate journalism massively fails not only in its intent to reduce errors, but also in its implementation.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by Karunamon on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:32AM (#21814466)
One avenue that I think hasn't been fully explored/exhausted yet is false advertising regulation. Calling your product "news" carries a an entirely reasonable expectation that the product is free of falsehoods. (I'm not getting into bias, just absence of lies)

What would happen if we made that term (or synonyms like "journalism") protected advertising terms, so that you're required to either live up to it, or call yourself something else?

Another idea under this hypothetical law would be to have retractions/corrections carry the exact same amount of publicization as the original story. In other words, if you spend 10 minutes during primetime talking about something that turned out to be a lie, you get to spend 10 minutes on primetime about how you screwed up. You lie on a front page article that was up for a week? Your correction features in the same place for a week.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by gnopgnip on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:53PM (#21817169)
Lies are still protected free speech in most circumstances. Additionally you have the problem of policing who decides what is illegal
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by Clubber on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @02:35PM (#21817731)
As is the press. Outside of libel laws, the press is constitutionally exempt from any type of regulation. As impotent as the press is today, I wouldn't want any political party to be able to decide what it can and can't say.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by Karunamon on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @03:00PM (#21818065)
I'm not advocating that they can't say whatever they want.. only that they can't call it news if outright falsehoods are being passed. The same way you can't market your product as beef unless it meets certain standards, or your Bitcoin company as a bank, and so on.

This is a labeling/marketing law, nothing more. You are not excempt from those by way of being a media organization. Certainly it is not a speech restriction. As a bonus, it would allow competitors to market on that label since now it actually means something.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by the_duke on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:04AM (#21813054)
Especially the online versions of those "well respected publications" publish unverified things all the time. Often they get taken down or completely rewritten within half an hour, and of course are worded in a very speculative way from the start.

There are also countless of "articles" in those (like the NYT, WaPo, WSJ) that are nothing more than a press release with some shallow context sprinkled in, without any independent verification or actual journalistic work.

This doesn't provide a risk of publishing false information ("we are just reporting on the press release"), but is often misleading and of little value to the reader.

At the minimum a list of sources with a link to the press release (and probably nothing/little else) would make it easy to see that a article is nothing more than a shill PR.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by smt88 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:12AM (#21813572)
Since NYT, WaPo, and WSJ publish unverified info "all the time", perhaps you could prove your point by pulling examples of false info they've published in the last month without a correction?

Since it happens so frequently, it should be easy to find one or two, maybe even for each publication.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by tarcyanm on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:32AM (#21813761)
The deafening silence regarding the fudged OPCW reports is an indictment on most outlets (WP is mentioned explicitly): https://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/07/syria-many-media-lie-a... https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2019/12/15/deluge-of-new-leaks-...
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by VBprogrammer on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @07:54AM (#21812988)
> No individual journalist wants to be known for getting a story wrong, so incentives are pretty strong to begin with.

I think in a lot of places this isn't nearly as true as maybe it once was. The top selling newspapers in the UK pretty much habitually print anything that drives sales / their agenda and when they get a slap on the wrist they just print a minimal viable retraction.

When that occasionally lands them in court they treat it basically as a cost of doing business.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by conistonwater on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:05AM (#21813055)
The top selling newspapers in the UK are tabloids though, rather than well-respected publications. I don't think that contradicts smt88's point.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by freeflight on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:12PM (#21815724)
> I don't think that contradicts smt88's point.

Imho it perfectly contradicts the point, because the UK isn't alone with that issue, BILD is also a tabloid, the most circulated one in Germany.

Of course, a lot of that hinges with the definition of "tabloid" [0] and how different Overton windows for these societies. For example, both UK and German tabloids heavily relied on "Page X" girls for their popularity.

While the same in the US was it's very own niche with the Playboy, as selling sexuality that openly in the mainstream was always more controversial in the US compared to Europe.

But US outlets also ain't above sensationalized headlines and leaving out a bit of context to justify them, some would argue that's something the US actually championeered with the marketing industry.

It's the same with the public shaming and privacy of people; In Europe, that's considered a very tabloid thing to do, meanwhile, in the US it's often standard to show uncensored pictures of people with their full names.

Does that really help to surface the truth? Or is it merely just another manifestation of the flaws of the "free market" at work? If the market only wants what sells best, and not what's actually true, what's the most likely outcome?

[0] https://www.agilitypr.com/resources/top-media-outlets/top-15...

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by pathseeker on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:00PM (#21815571)
smt88's point was that the industry has solved this problem, which is clearly wrong. He/she didn't say anything about "well-respected publications", whatever that even means these days.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by tristor on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @11:25AM (#21815122)
Well, at this point the NY Times is basically a tabloid too, so...
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by codetrotter on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:11AM (#21813554)
New publications that pop up would benefit from better citing the sources of their articles, because then when an article they write is shared and someone says "I have never heard of that publication, I don't trust it", the person that shared the item could refer the other person to the sources that were being cited instead of arguing about the trustworthiness of the publication itself.

As for established publications; from their point of view they can probably manage fine because they have a good reputation already, but I think it would benefit society at large if they too got better at citing sources so that we can rely less on reputation alone.

Reputation is a proxy for trustworthiness, but greater source transparency allows for the trustworthiness of individual articles to be judged with less work and thus less time needed, which means that deliberately misleading articles, factually wrong information and honest mistakes can all be caught sooner.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by pathseeker on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @11:58AM (#21815539)
I'm having trouble reconciling how woefully out of touch your comment is with the state of journalism as an industry. Claiming that it "has solved theses issues" is pretty tone-deaf given the article these comments are on.

>No individual journalist wants to be known for getting a story wrong, so incentives are pretty strong to begin with.

For some altruistic ones sure. However, for each one of those, there are 10 writing click-bait articles to generate traffic to questionable orgs and they don't care at all about being wrong.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by wilg on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:26PM (#21816793)
Even if that is true, there is clearly a trust problem with journalism, and the list of "well-respected" publications is dwindling, and there's no real way to audit whether they are trustworthy. I don't support the type of government regulation the OP proposes, but I do like the transparency ideas.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by 72deluxe on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:28AM (#21813205)
I wish I could find a link but wasn't there a guy who went round editing wikipedia articles for elderly "famous" people, and then when they died he waited to see which publications' obituaries for said individual matched his wikipedia falsehoods?

It just proved that "journalists" weren't doing any research and were just scraping wikipedia. And getting paid to do it.

I remember when Michael Jackson died and channel Five here in the UK had a hastily arranged "Michael Jackson Special" with library shots telling his life story. The narration was word-for-word the Wikipedia article. Disgusting.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by smt88 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:11AM (#21813550)
Failing to verify a celebrity birthdate is not the same as failing to vet a source for an impactful investigative piece. There are people paid to write fluff who don't do much research, but the stakes are low.

You still haven't refuted anything I wrote. Clickbait and low-effort articles are pervasive. Everyone knows that. But you can generally trust publications with known journalistic standards and a good record.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by makomk on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:52AM (#21814717)
Well-respected publications should have internal checks and balances. They don't. My favourite spectacular failure was when NPR, of all organisations, falsely claimed that Michael Cohen's guilty plea showed Donald Trump Jr. had lied to Congress. It was a very convincing article which rapidly went viral - Cohen had said that specific negotations were ongoing in 2016, and they had a quote from Trump Jr's testimony which seemed to say they weren't. Except that quote was from his reply to a question specifically about negotations other than those ones, which he had already told Congress about. Even the slightest scrutiny of the key quote the entire accusation revolved around would've given the error away. They didn't give it that scrutiny.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by mar77i on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @07:20AM (#21812761)
Only because there doesn't seem any way to fuck this up right now, doesn't mean there, in fact, isn't. The ongoing pattern is that "at the time it seemed like the right thing to publish", when in fact it's just about spinning the spin. You can't prove how certain the publishers were about their spin at the time of publishing, not even with your suggested solution, that I guess, would only get more journalists fired, and last time I checked there's already plenty of that.

Like how Snopes' fact checker seemed like a good idea, before they started getting things wrong too now and then. I mean, of course, it's not likely there's a holy grail solution and we're stuck in having to evaluate every day anew, which sources we trust and which we don't.

Regarding the part where spinning the spin is at least followed up by corrections and apologies - which few people read, anyway, after the damage is done, but there's NewsGuard, which does fairly technical editorial rating, which i find a very good idea.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by datashow on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:07AM (#21813072)
> The ongoing pattern is that "at the time it seemed like the right thing to publish", when in fact it's just about spinning the spin.

This reminds me something I read recently: The Court concluded that "because the articles in their entirety were substantially true at the time they were published—even though the investigators' suspicions were ultimately deemed unfounded—they cannot form the basis of a defamation action.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Jewell

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by skinkestek on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:57AM (#21813422)
You are onto something.

I very much respect journalists and some of them are really brave, on par with ambulance crews, firefighters and police officers who put their lives on the line to rescue others.

Sadly, like how a very few police officers abuse their positions to punish random teenagers etc certain journalists are extremely harmful.

I've seen cases were journalists have done untold damage to individuals and communities because they couldn't be bothered to verify their sources before going out, guns blazing, to tell that someone is an abuser/fraud/racist etc.

This can go on for weeks and months but when the evidence finally piles up they publish one small retraction notice :-/

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by iagovar on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:12AM (#21813567)
I'm not sure. While it's true that some reporters/journalists do a respectable job, I feel that the the field is overall lacking in respect for their job, care, etc. The amount of directly false or misleading information that piles up every day is staggering, and by very well known newspapers an TV channels.

If your job, or something you have direct experience of have been affected by the news cycle then you know how much BS reach eyeballs.

But not only that. Try to read the twitter profile of the journalist you found writing a poor piece. This exercise didn't help me appreciate the field, quite the contrary.

Such experience made me laugh when spanish media panicked about fake news and social media a while ago. They are the primary source. And I guess such behavior can be translated to other languages. I can see the pattern in the US newscycle for example.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by markstos on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:20AM (#21814301)
So name some names with specific examples.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by ken on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:29AM (#21813213)
I was once told (and I've long since forgotten where I heard this) that the three most important aspects to include in any news story are (1) what do we know, (2) how do we know it, and (3) what do we not know. I'm not sure I've ever read any news story that has hit all of these.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by markus_zhang on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @02:08PM (#21817384)
Journalism in a large part is just propaganda tool of different factions. Regulation is applied by humans and humans are biased by their investment in different interests. Citizens should realize that every piece of news that they read are biased and need to do their own home work carefully. If they cannot or are not willing to do proper homework the next best idea is to trust no oneone and only care about local issues.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by arianestrasse on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @07:22AM (#21812773)
As you already mentioned, there are many pitfalls. I think the biggest one is that the journalism source protection would not work if sources have to be public and all the information available to regulators on demand.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by jacquesm on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:03AM (#21813480)
I'd love to see this for politicians. Lie and you're automatically removed from office and fined/jailed.

Also, I never understood why a vote is a one way street, why can't I recall my vote if the politicians that gained my vote with their programs and promises then end up breaking those promises and not implementing their programs.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by zentiggr on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:14AM (#21813586)
Term limits. Or vote them out next time. Part of the reason the Constitution writers made 2 and 6 year terms, to try to force the House to be responsive to public opinion and the Senate resistant to GIGO cycling of proposed bills.

Of course that's all moot with the current 'ideology above sanity', but that's the game today.

Term limits.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by enraged_camel on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @11:01AM (#21814808)
Term limits is one of those ideas that sound good, but is actually bad.

Think about it: why would you want to have lawmakers automatically removed from office after they have gained significant experience in writing and lobbying for legislation and serving in various committees? Terminating someone when they are at the height of their productivity doesn't make any sense, either for business or for government.

Furthermore, the only thing term limits would do is further encourage the "revolving doors" pattern. Every politician would optimize their legislative careers for their post-term private sector gigs, rather than try their hardest to continue doing a good job so as to get re-elected.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by pathseeker on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:07PM (#21815663)
>why would you want to have lawmakers automatically removed from office after they have gained significant experience in writing and lobbying for legislation and serving in various committees?

Because passed laws should be about the will of the people. Not how deep the tentacles of a particular politician go. The only reason it takes so long for politicians to climb those ranks and gain power is due to the long line of lifers in front of them. 8 years is more than enough for Presidents to significantly impact the country. There is no reason a senator or a representative needs more than that.

>Every politician would optimize their legislative careers for their post-term private sector gigs

They do this already. The lack of term limits just allows them to continue amassing power and favors to make it more lucrative.

>rather than try their hardest to continue doing a good job so as to get re-elected.

You fundamentally misunderstand what the point of a member of congress. They aren't supposed to be professional politicians. They are supposed to be normal people from each state doing their duty representing that state. It's why congress isn't a full-time position.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by zentiggr on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @02:40PM (#21817807)
> Terminating someone when they are at the height of their productivity

Unfortunately for that rosy abstract view, 'gained significant experience' usually means 'entrenched in the party leadership and completely sold to special interests'. When votes wield less influence over a legislator than those who have bought them, they need to go and make room for someone less likely to get bought.

Let the people make examples of the most heavily bought, and there's a snowball's chance we could get back to having representatives again, instead of corporate interest peddlers.

And shorter terms, with less chance to get entrenched in influence peddling, makes that revolving door less enticing for all sides.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by notatoad on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:43PM (#21817035)
Representatives don't write legislation, that's what their staff is for, and experience is a valuable assent in a staffer. The longer a poltician's term lasts, the more they trend towards being the governments representative to the people instead of the people's representative in government.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by dmos62 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:08AM (#21813520)
I sympathize, but the ability to recall your vote, i.e. unelect, at any time would make your attitude towards your initial vote less serious and elections/unelections would cycle too fast to govern. Sometimes a bad government can be better than no government. Burden of citizenship.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by jacquesm on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:11AM (#21813561)
> the ability to recall your vote, i.e. unelect, at any time would make your attitude towards your initial vote less serious

How do you know that about me?

> elections/unelections would cycle too fast to govern

Ok, that may be so, but without trying it we'll never know. You could implement this at the municipal level first, see how it works, iron out the kinks if any are found and then scale it up bit by bit. The whole idea that a politician can say anything and only be held accountable many years later is a pretty big flaw, possibly bigger than the flaw of having multiple election cycles until we find people that do keep their word.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by pathseeker on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:10PM (#21815705)
>How do you know that about me?

Presumably you are human, no? The ability to undo a decision at any time significantly reduces the impact of the decision. How much effort do you spend deciding what to eat for lunch? How much effort would you spend if it's what you're going to eat for lunch every day for the next 4 years?

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by pc86 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:15AM (#21813597)
> Ok, that may be so, but without trying it we'll never know

Of course we can. Take the US dominant two-party system, and look at the approval rating for politicians. Look at how many times it crosses the 50% line. Some would only be in office for a few weeks before being replaced, but then who would replace them? What if the previous candidate has a better job already? Does The Party now get to pick someone? How about when approval ratings move back and forth between 48% and 52% over the course of just a few weeks, multiple times?

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by jacquesm on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:19AM (#21813633)
You've got that backwards. With the people that voted for them the bulk of the politicians are still happy. A recalled vote would simply deduct one from the result as set and would leave the rest of the results in place until the balance point was reached. That would not be something that would 'go back and forth', you could only do that once and when the withdrawn votes balance out (which typically for both parties would normally happen at roughly the same rate) would you call a new election.

So that would not happen nearly as often as you might think, and would likely require a fairly major turn of opinion before it would have any effect.

The two party system by the way is very much broken, as is the influence of money in American politics but that's a completely different - and local - affair.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by bovermyer on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:11AM (#21813558)
What distinguishes involuntary falsehoods (e.g., misquoting someone unintentionally, or basing an argument on data later proved to be false) from lies in this case? How would you go about enacting this? I think this is a pipe dream, and not something that can (or should) be implemented.

And as for "one way street" voting... that's because voting is an ephemeral act, not a sustained one. Your vote happened in the past and had an effect. You can't change your vote later and suddenly someone else is elected.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by jacquesm on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:16AM (#21813602)
> What distinguishes involuntary falsehoods (e.g., misquoting someone unintentionally, or basing an argument on data later proved to be false) from lies in this case?

Nothing, so therefore you would have to do some homework. The news cycle might slow down a bit and I'm not sure that would be a bad thing.

> How would you go about enacting this?

A law would be a good start, possibly one with a bunch of criteria that would make 'false positives' a rarity so that at least initially the stick would be reserved for the most offending cases. If that works well then you can adjust to taste.

> I think this is a pipe dream, and not something that can (or should) be implemented.

That's ok, it is perfectly ok for different people to have different attitudes towards such ideas. But it's novel in the sense that it would create a strong incentive for the press to be cautious rather than jumping on every hype wagon that rolled along.

> And as for "one way street" voting... that's because voting is an ephemeral act, not a sustained one.

Yes, and I propose to change that.

> Your vote happened in the past and had an effect. You can't change your vote later and suddenly someone else is elected.

Not right now, but that too is not set in stone and in theory could be changed. A lot of the things we do and find normal are only that because they are how things are done today. That does not mean they can't be changed.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by pc86 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:17AM (#21813615)
> What distinguishes involuntary falsehoods (e.g., misquoting someone unintentionally, or basing an argument on data later proved to be false) from lies in this case?

For the vast majority of people (even those who consider themselves apolitical), it will be how much they like the politician in question. My side? Definitely just being misquoted, or taken out of context, or an honest mistake. The other side? A crazed partisan intentionally manipulating the system, a terrible excuse for a human being, and should be jailed before being summarily executed.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by kevinmchugh on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:33AM (#21813240)
Seems like this would further accelerate the trend of news outlets being vanity or ideological projects for the most wealthy. Fewer outlets, less local news coverage, less competition in markets. It's not like they're raking in cash as is.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by panarky on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:38PM (#21816116)
Would your rules only apply to traditional news orgs like Reuters and Bloomberg, or would it also apply to Infowars and influential YouTube channels, Twitter feeds and Facebook groups? Would it apply to comedians who report the news?
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by rogerkirkness on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:45AM (#21814638)
If you don't trust it, don't consume it. Eventually trust either wins, or you don't care about it very much. The government, fines and aggressive rules won't fix it. Media is a product, not some kind of right.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by alexis_fr on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:50AM (#21814688)
I would like the ability of pointing out journalistic bias in other media so customers stop listening to them, and this requires source materials to compare to the way the article is written. Our problem is not how we consume media, but how others do; Enabling a sane discussion to highlight that the article misinterpreted the source is part of the discussion. As long as we live in the same voting space, I want entry points to criticize their articles.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by zepto on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:52AM (#21814711)
Try that logic with tap water in flint Michigan.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by rogerkirkness on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:40PM (#21816134)
Are you saying that water service is a right as opposed to a product? Water being a right != water service.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by zepto on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:53PM (#21816324)
Thanks for the clarifying question. I’m not saying anything about rights at all - I think that’s a false dichotomy.

My comment is focussed on the rest of the logic.

People who trust the product end up with children with brain damage.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by vectorEQ on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:51AM (#21814705)
you are correct. if people don't consume bullshit, no one will sell it. easier said than done though.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by londons_explore on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:17AM (#21813609)
I wonder why journalists don't voluntarily to this? It seems obvious to me that high quality journalism should cite sources and methods, if only to protect themselves from future criticism if their news reporting turns out to be wrong. At least then they can point at the fault publicly, explain how it happened, and what they are changing to make sure it doesn't happen again.

In some cases, they might deliberately not want to give certain sources, but in that case I'd like them to explain their reasons as a footnote of each article.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by londons_explore on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:19AM (#21813637)
I suspect citing sources and methods in detail might be considered 'boring' for the average reader if done within the prose of the article.

Perhaps what is needed is a new normal that articles online will have footnotes which are only shown to those who want to see them - that way the body of the article can be short and succinct, with the 'borig' citations in the footnotes.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by enobrev on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:44AM (#21813891)
If they're footnotes, they're already at the bottom of the article. No need to hide them further.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by indymike on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:19AM (#21813131)
This assumes the goal of news is to be accurate. It is not. News exists to sell advertising and media advertising is presented in (i.e. TV, Newspaper, Website subscriptions). Funny thing is the news industry gets it right a lot more than state-controlled news agencies. The incentive is there - selling more - to take some huge risks to find big stories and report on the powerful, rich and elites bad behavior.

If you inject personal liability to journalism, the news industry is dead in six months.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by lexs on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:23AM (#21813163)
Any source on the claim that private news is more accurate than state-controlled ones? Seems like a bold claim if I'm looking at the yellow papers in most countries.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by feb on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @07:22AM (#21812771)
All that sounds well, but it also has some nasty side effects. Anonymous sources and whistle blowers would not be possible anymore while very much needed.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by willyt on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:01AM (#21814051)
And make journalism a registered profession like doctors, dentists, structural engineers, architects etc with a legally enforced professional code of conduct. Every article should be cryptographically signed by the journalist in a way that links to their professional registration. If a story is found to be inaccurate then this gets noted on the journalists professional reputation page at the 'institute of journalists' or whatever you call it, a whole bunch of stories with major inaccuracies would lead to them being struck off, to be judged by a jury consisting of other journalists, lay representatives and representatives of the legal profession[0]. If you want to use the word 'News' anywhere to describe your newspaper or website, then you must use a registered journalists and their reputation badges would need to be displayed by every article.

[0]This is how it works for Architects, I don't see why journalists should be any different given that they can influence the direction of whole democracies.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by humanrebar on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:04AM (#21814082)
Because some bully will decide that his opponents are all liars, revoke their credentials, and ban their speech. This happens all the time around the world.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by lordlimecat on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @02:02PM (#21817316)
>And make journalism a registered profession like doctors, dentists, structural engineers, architects etc with a legally enforced professional code of conduct

Here I'm thinking, "If i were a dictator, this would be a really fantastic way to control the narrative".

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by scarejunba on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:03AM (#21813048)
Fascinating. So that’s how well-intentioned people kill the free press.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by nickpp on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:40AM (#21813297)
Regulations. How well-intentioned people kill every free thing.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by auiya on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:52AM (#21813403)
You don't need all that, you only need legal repercussions for inaccuracy. I understand there are European and Asian countries with laws like this? Is anyone familiar with how often such incursions are prosecuted?
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by erk__ on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:09AM (#21814157)
In denmark we have something called Pressenævnet (Danish Press Council), they can not fine companies but they can force them to have a have an article that says that there were an error in their article, they can also send them on to other institutions if they think that it was criminal negliance. They also post all the cases publicly after they are done. What they can do is defined in the "The Media Liability Act", and what they see as pad jounlalism is defined in the "The Press Ethical Rules" both are linked below if you are interested.

Example of case [english]: https://www.pressenaevnet.dk/case-example/

The Media Liability Act: https://www.pressenaevnet.dk/media-liability-act/

The Press Ethical Rules: https://www.pressenaevnet.dk/press-ethical-rules/

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by crispyambulance on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @11:22AM (#21815079)
> Combine this with a fine for the publication if they failed to verify information with a reasonable effort...

Ain't gonna work, ever.

Who is going to impose and collect "the fine"? Who will judge what is a "reasonable" effort? How?

The only mechanism we have that is even close is libel lawsuits, and that's only when actual damage is done and demonstrable (sort-of, depending on if you can afford to retain an entire wing of lawyers, like Peter Thiel).

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by danso on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @07:26AM (#21812797)
> list of sources of information and original research conducted

This is something that is ostensibly already in a typical article. Or are you suggesting that the reporter list everything that was researched, and every one who was talked to, regardless if it made it into the published version of the article?

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by the_duke on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @07:42AM (#21812909)
> This is something that is ostensibly already in a typical article.

It really isn't though. Most sources are not mentioned in a typical article. Prominent interviewees are mentioned by name, but more often then not information comes from a quick Google search, someone not established enough to be mentioned (eg you would mention a professor, but not a young research assistant/secretary), or even Reddit.

Not to mention that a large amount of articles contains no original research at all. Often it's a press release, a rewrite of a press agency release, or just a copy/paste and rewrite of some other website.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by danso on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:08AM (#21813075)
> but more often then not information comes from a quick Google search

Sure, and this info should be attributed to the reporter, who gets full blame when it's wrong. Though I do agree it'd be nice (in a world where the First Amendment didn't exist) if there were a rule banning such weasel phrasing such as "Some say that" and "according to several experts [who are never named or specifically referred to]"

As for articles being a rewrite of press releases or other articles; yes, that's obviously an issue, and one that many journalists get irate about. But even in most of those cases, the sourcing is clear: "[Regurgitated rewrite of news lede], as first reported by the New York Times [link to original article]".

But for the archetypical article containing original reporting, here's an example of how a source involved in an article might not get listed:

Original article: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/03/business/drunk-driving-br...

Behind-the-scenes writeup that acknowledges an expert who isn't named in the article: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/03/reader-center/breathalyze...

The reason why the expert wasn't named, even though he was very helpful throughout the reporting process, was because the article's ultimately relied on the content of original documents. The expert helped lead the reporters to those documents, but his expert opinion was not needed and thus not cited for the article's authoritative conclusions.

It's true that reporters often won't credit where they first got a tip or where they saw something. But if they do their own parallel reconstruction – e.g. they first read an anecdote from a viral tweet/Reddit thread, but then they track down the original source themselves – as a reader, I ultimately care who the reporter and their editor explicitly say they vetted/vouch for, when it comes to the published version of the info.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by simion314 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @07:41AM (#21812892)
I think providing only the used sources is enough and the journalist should do all what is reasonable possible to find the original source of a news, so avoid speaking about something they read/heard from X and X said he read/seen from Y and Y from Z , the journalist should try to find the original source(if possible). For things that should remain anonymous they should describe how credible is the source and content.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by thrower123 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:40AM (#21813841)
It would be really nice if there was a commit history on all news articles that are published. So many stories these days get silently updated or even rewritten with no acknowledgement.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by SN76477 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:57AM (#21813423)
Freedom of press is a great thing. Unfortunately we do not see enough journalists earning authentic trust. It has indeed become a race to the bottom.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by dependenttypes on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:25AM (#21813178)
Why regulate it? Why not let the people judge for themselves?
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by ComodoHacker on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:20AM (#21813140)
So another problem market can't solve?
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by humanrebar on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:06AM (#21814120)
This opinion presumes anything can adequately solve the problem without significant downsides.