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Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by smt88 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @07:27AM (#21812799)
Well-respected publications have internal checks and balances that do all these things for investigative stories already. You seem not to know enough about how the journalism industry has solved these issues to make a proposal.

The system does work fairly well. Screw-ups of investigations and scoops are big news because they're rare among serious journalistic outfits.

No individual journalist wants to be known for getting a story wrong, so incentives are pretty strong to begin with.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by joshlegs on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:03AM (#21814072)
I like how OP commenter is essentially arguing that the government should regulate journalism, which fundamentally misunderstands the role of journalists -- that is, it is a direct check and balance on the government, except that it relies on the free market for competitive regulation. A journalism outlet which consistently gets things wrong SHOULD fail. Trying to regulate journalism massively fails not only in its intent to reduce errors, but also in its implementation.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by Karunamon on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:32AM (#21814466)
One avenue that I think hasn't been fully explored/exhausted yet is false advertising regulation. Calling your product "news" carries a an entirely reasonable expectation that the product is free of falsehoods. (I'm not getting into bias, just absence of lies)

What would happen if we made that term (or synonyms like "journalism") protected advertising terms, so that you're required to either live up to it, or call yourself something else?

Another idea under this hypothetical law would be to have retractions/corrections carry the exact same amount of publicization as the original story. In other words, if you spend 10 minutes during primetime talking about something that turned out to be a lie, you get to spend 10 minutes on primetime about how you screwed up. You lie on a front page article that was up for a week? Your correction features in the same place for a week.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by gnopgnip on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:53PM (#21817169)
Lies are still protected free speech in most circumstances. Additionally you have the problem of policing who decides what is illegal
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by Clubber on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @02:35PM (#21817731)
As is the press. Outside of libel laws, the press is constitutionally exempt from any type of regulation. As impotent as the press is today, I wouldn't want any political party to be able to decide what it can and can't say.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by Karunamon on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @03:00PM (#21818065)
I'm not advocating that they can't say whatever they want.. only that they can't call it news if outright falsehoods are being passed. The same way you can't market your product as beef unless it meets certain standards, or your Bitcoin company as a bank, and so on.

This is a labeling/marketing law, nothing more. You are not excempt from those by way of being a media organization. Certainly it is not a speech restriction. As a bonus, it would allow competitors to market on that label since now it actually means something.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by the_duke on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:04AM (#21813054)
Especially the online versions of those "well respected publications" publish unverified things all the time. Often they get taken down or completely rewritten within half an hour, and of course are worded in a very speculative way from the start.

There are also countless of "articles" in those (like the NYT, WaPo, WSJ) that are nothing more than a press release with some shallow context sprinkled in, without any independent verification or actual journalistic work.

This doesn't provide a risk of publishing false information ("we are just reporting on the press release"), but is often misleading and of little value to the reader.

At the minimum a list of sources with a link to the press release (and probably nothing/little else) would make it easy to see that a article is nothing more than a shill PR.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by smt88 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:12AM (#21813572)
Since NYT, WaPo, and WSJ publish unverified info "all the time", perhaps you could prove your point by pulling examples of false info they've published in the last month without a correction?

Since it happens so frequently, it should be easy to find one or two, maybe even for each publication.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by tarcyanm on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:32AM (#21813761)
The deafening silence regarding the fudged OPCW reports is an indictment on most outlets (WP is mentioned explicitly): https://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/07/syria-many-media-lie-a... https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2019/12/15/deluge-of-new-leaks-...
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by VBprogrammer on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @07:54AM (#21812988)
> No individual journalist wants to be known for getting a story wrong, so incentives are pretty strong to begin with.

I think in a lot of places this isn't nearly as true as maybe it once was. The top selling newspapers in the UK pretty much habitually print anything that drives sales / their agenda and when they get a slap on the wrist they just print a minimal viable retraction.

When that occasionally lands them in court they treat it basically as a cost of doing business.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by conistonwater on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:05AM (#21813055)
The top selling newspapers in the UK are tabloids though, rather than well-respected publications. I don't think that contradicts smt88's point.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by freeflight on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:12PM (#21815724)
> I don't think that contradicts smt88's point.

Imho it perfectly contradicts the point, because the UK isn't alone with that issue, BILD is also a tabloid, the most circulated one in Germany.

Of course, a lot of that hinges with the definition of "tabloid" [0] and how different Overton windows for these societies. For example, both UK and German tabloids heavily relied on "Page X" girls for their popularity.

While the same in the US was it's very own niche with the Playboy, as selling sexuality that openly in the mainstream was always more controversial in the US compared to Europe.

But US outlets also ain't above sensationalized headlines and leaving out a bit of context to justify them, some would argue that's something the US actually championeered with the marketing industry.

It's the same with the public shaming and privacy of people; In Europe, that's considered a very tabloid thing to do, meanwhile, in the US it's often standard to show uncensored pictures of people with their full names.

Does that really help to surface the truth? Or is it merely just another manifestation of the flaws of the "free market" at work? If the market only wants what sells best, and not what's actually true, what's the most likely outcome?

[0] https://www.agilitypr.com/resources/top-media-outlets/top-15...

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by pathseeker on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @12:00PM (#21815571)
smt88's point was that the industry has solved this problem, which is clearly wrong. He/she didn't say anything about "well-respected publications", whatever that even means these days.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by tristor on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @11:25AM (#21815122)
Well, at this point the NY Times is basically a tabloid too, so...
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by codetrotter on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:11AM (#21813554)
New publications that pop up would benefit from better citing the sources of their articles, because then when an article they write is shared and someone says "I have never heard of that publication, I don't trust it", the person that shared the item could refer the other person to the sources that were being cited instead of arguing about the trustworthiness of the publication itself.

As for established publications; from their point of view they can probably manage fine because they have a good reputation already, but I think it would benefit society at large if they too got better at citing sources so that we can rely less on reputation alone.

Reputation is a proxy for trustworthiness, but greater source transparency allows for the trustworthiness of individual articles to be judged with less work and thus less time needed, which means that deliberately misleading articles, factually wrong information and honest mistakes can all be caught sooner.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by pathseeker on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @11:58AM (#21815539)
I'm having trouble reconciling how woefully out of touch your comment is with the state of journalism as an industry. Claiming that it "has solved theses issues" is pretty tone-deaf given the article these comments are on.

>No individual journalist wants to be known for getting a story wrong, so incentives are pretty strong to begin with.

For some altruistic ones sure. However, for each one of those, there are 10 writing click-bait articles to generate traffic to questionable orgs and they don't care at all about being wrong.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by wilg on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @01:26PM (#21816793)
Even if that is true, there is clearly a trust problem with journalism, and the list of "well-respected" publications is dwindling, and there's no real way to audit whether they are trustworthy. I don't support the type of government regulation the OP proposes, but I do like the transparency ideas.
Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by 72deluxe on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @08:28AM (#21813205)
I wish I could find a link but wasn't there a guy who went round editing wikipedia articles for elderly "famous" people, and then when they died he waited to see which publications' obituaries for said individual matched his wikipedia falsehoods?

It just proved that "journalists" weren't doing any research and were just scraping wikipedia. And getting paid to do it.

I remember when Michael Jackson died and channel Five here in the UK had a hastily arranged "Michael Jackson Special" with library shots telling his life story. The narration was word-for-word the Wikipedia article. Disgusting.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by smt88 on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @09:11AM (#21813550)
Failing to verify a celebrity birthdate is not the same as failing to vet a source for an impactful investigative piece. There are people paid to write fluff who don't do much research, but the stakes are low.

You still haven't refuted anything I wrote. Clickbait and low-effort articles are pervasive. Everyone knows that. But you can generally trust publications with known journalistic standards and a good record.

Re:France's AMF watchdog fines Bloomberg €5M over Vinci hoax by makomk on Tuesday December 17, 2019 @10:52AM (#21814717)
Well-respected publications should have internal checks and balances. They don't. My favourite spectacular failure was when NPR, of all organisations, falsely claimed that Michael Cohen's guilty plea showed Donald Trump Jr. had lied to Congress. It was a very convincing article which rapidly went viral - Cohen had said that specific negotations were ongoing in 2016, and they had a quote from Trump Jr's testimony which seemed to say they weren't. Except that quote was from his reply to a question specifically about negotations other than those ones, which he had already told Congress about. Even the slightest scrutiny of the key quote the entire accusation revolved around would've given the error away. They didn't give it that scrutiny.