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Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by zelly on Friday December 13, 2019 @12:16PM (#21783416)
A business model based on data hoarding will never last long-term. As soon as one open source player steps up that's 60% as good, it's over. Like Encarta or Britannica vs. Wikipedia.

Lasting value comes from the software in between the database and the view. In the case of encyclopedias or maps, the software is the most trivial part.

I really think Google Maps will die. It's just unlikely that for the rest of history, no one will improve OpenStreetMaps to the point that it is competitive.

You need a massive amount of capital to create a redundant data set that has a death clock, doing nothing good for the world but extracting some small rent created by antitrust laws. No thanks.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by s17n on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:20PM (#21785615)
Traditional encyclopedias didn't lose because of their intellectual property model, they lost because they were trying to charge money for their product, so a free as in beer competitor was able to take all their market share.

A maps data set will require constant updating and the quality of the data set will be determined by the amount of work put into it on an ongoing basis. The question is which number is bigger: the monetary value of the time people are willing to donate making contributions to openstreetmap, or the amount of money that Google makes on map ads and can therefore spend improving the data quality.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by mantap on Saturday December 14, 2019 @12:08AM (#21787938)
There are parts of the world that have much better OSM coverage than Google maps, e.g eastern Indonesia. I don't think OSM is ever going to beat Google in for instance New York City but it absolutely can and does beat Google in parts of the world that are not profitable for Google to map. That's the problem with a for-profit map: consistency.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by codeka on Saturday December 14, 2019 @02:10AM (#21788237)
The exact same problem exists with volunteer-maintained maps. In fact it's even worse there because at least with a commercial map, quality is basically correlated with where the users are. With a volunteer-maintained map, quality is correlated with where the volunteers are, which is not necessarily going to be where the users are.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by carlinmack on Sunday December 15, 2019 @09:04AM (#21796261)
Thousands of volunteers specifically map remote areas they don't live in through the Humanitarian OpenStreetMap team
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by dmihal on Saturday December 14, 2019 @07:17PM (#21793396)
Every local municipality already maintains GIS data, I imagine that some day these systems will automatically integrate into a public, open database like OSM.

Sidenote, the FOAM project is doing some interesting work into geospacial data on-the-blockchain.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by namibj on Sunday December 15, 2019 @03:11AM (#21795102)
At a regular (bi)monthly/quarterly OSM meetup we were joined by representatives from 2 or 3 local municipalities. It seems they might be interested in unification to reduce costs, but I didn't ask for details.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by macintux on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:02PM (#21785994)
> I really think Google Maps will die. It's just unlikely that for the rest of history, no one will improve OpenStreetMaps to the point that it is competitive.

From reading the analyses at https://www.justinobeirne.com/, plus just generally following the tech industry, I'm convinced Google Maps will never die, at least not in any timeframe relevant to this discussion.

Between autonomous vehicles at Waymo and Google's desire to provide intelligent suggestions to their Android and web users, they need to have as comprehensive a data set as algorithmically possible.

I suppose it's possible that OSM could become good enough that Google would only need to supply a proprietary layer on top of it for their own needs, but given that they can collect better intelligence about roads and buildings than anyone else through their unwitting spies, I doubt they'd want to give up control over the full stack.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by minikites on Friday December 13, 2019 @12:33PM (#21783537)
>As soon as one open source player steps up that's 60% as good, it's over.

Does this imply that Linux is <60% as good as Windows because it's not over?

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by zelly on Friday December 13, 2019 @12:59PM (#21783771)
Linux only lags behind in desktop/laptop use. (Dominates servers and smartphones.)

Yes, absolutely, in the case of desktops, it is <60% as good as Windows or macOS. I say this as a nearly lifelong desktop Linux user. The userspace desktop software gets almost no attention compared to the kernel/systemd which actually matters for business. The major DEs like KDE and Gnome3 are full of exploits and memory leaks. The alternative to using a DE is to use a tiling window manager and spend hours a day re-implementing what would have been one-click operations on Windows/macOS. This is not to mention the lack of non-development-related software targeting desktop Linux.

Will this change in the future? I think it is very likely, but the time horizon is key. There are thousands of possible realities where Microsoft or Apple fails--political problems, economic events, bad management, some black swan startup out of nowhere. All it takes is for one of these to trigger for mindshare to shift to Linux (or BSD or Fuchsia--any free one for that matter) and bring it over the threshold.

(But this is kind of irrelevant to the point about data hoarding business models, since Windows/macOS is pure software.)

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by larrik on Friday December 13, 2019 @02:36PM (#21784619)
As someone who dual-boots, I would say Linux is a better OS, today, than Windows or Mac. Sure, there are areas where it sucks more than the others, but the same can be said of either of the other ones for different areas.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by zo1 on Friday December 13, 2019 @05:20PM (#21786140)
As someone who also dual-boots. I would say that Windows is definitely the better of the OSes. I've tried, so hard, to make it work. It's been almost a decade now since I switched to Linux OSes. But, software/package management is absolutely horrible in the OSS world these days. It's so bad that actually downloading + installing MSI/zip files from the software provider is a better experience and more reliable. Linux has lost almost all the benefits from having a package ecosystem.

These days, everything on linux is either random potentially insecure PPA repos, shell scripts loaded from a server via curl and piped to sh with sudo access, or "snaps" (whatever the fuck they are). That all ontop of wildly outdated packages in the supported repos. No wonder everyone rants and raves about "docker", now we know why things moved into that space.

I know, this is my opinion and it's biased. Yes I may not have done things properly, or there are other ways of doing things, etc etc.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by angry_octet on Friday December 13, 2019 @09:29PM (#21787391)
I really can understand how you have gotten to such a bad place with packaging. What are you doing that needs lots of PPAs?!

Snaps are actually a great security and packaging advance that decouples package dependencies from a common library set, while maintaining a mechanism to patch and upgrade otherwise dangling library deps. It also starts down the long road to confining software, because what you run shouldn't automatically assume all your privs. Basically iOS style apps for Linux.

People who pipe web content to a privileged shell are on their own at present. Arguably they should be warned, but that assumes taint tracking at every level of the operating system, and no production OS has that. If the software is a dependency shit show then putting it in docker (and then into a VM) is a better compromise.

Windows is already deprecating the installer model for the app store and cloud concept, they just didn't make it stick the first time round.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by di4na on Saturday December 14, 2019 @02:10AM (#21788241)
Snaps have been the single provider of crash, breaking the machine or killing ny battery i have ever seen on linux. It is to the point that if all i can find is a snap, i prefer to boot windows to deal with it.

Snaps are a good idea in theory but do not work in practice.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by angry_octet on Saturday December 14, 2019 @09:30AM (#21789650)
Well, I'm surprised. Snaps have really simplified things from my perspective. Any you'd like to call out? Particularly they shouldn't be able to 'break the machine'.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by di4na on Sunday December 15, 2019 @03:13AM (#21795108)
I have had multiple time uninstalling a snap that installed its own X stack. And discover that it had been swapped for the whole OS to use this one.

No more graphical stack.

This happened to me with not only X. It seems to me that installing is tested. Removing is not. It was also badly documented last time i checked.

Happened with discord last time.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by angry_octet on Monday December 16, 2019 @11:08AM (#21804059)
Okay that is seriously bad. Looking at https://github.com/snapcrafters/discord/issues they have several unresolved issues like that, seems this is unmaintained.

Ubuntu needs to more clearly explain whether the app is confined, and force apps to use an API to change the system environment to allow rollback, multiple packages of the same function etc.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by mgalgs on Friday December 13, 2019 @06:39PM (#21786661)
You should try something other than Ubuntu. Fedora or Arch are my standard recommendations these days.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by euroclydon on Friday December 13, 2019 @06:17PM (#21786526)
Oh, you think MSIs are sticking around? Package manager insanity is taking over Windows slowly too.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by carte_blanche on Friday December 13, 2019 @11:42PM (#21787865)
> The major DEs like KDE and Gnome3 are full of exploits and memory leaks.

Can you give any supporting evidence for this?

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by protomikron on Friday December 13, 2019 @02:15PM (#21784436)
> The major DEs like KDE and Gnome3 are full of exploits and memory leaks.

Sry, but that is just not true.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by seph-reed on Friday December 13, 2019 @03:05PM (#21784890)
When it comes to an OS, being 90% as good would still mean a 10% drop in productivity.

The margins are a bit different here.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by Armisael16 on Friday December 13, 2019 @12:36PM (#21783571)
I think it implies that Windows is not a business based on data-hoarding.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by thenewnewguy on Friday December 13, 2019 @03:51PM (#21785330)
For the average consumer, (i.e. not the average HN user, where this is far more debatable), yes.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by pgeorgi on Friday December 13, 2019 @12:37PM (#21783580)
For the use case of running whatever win32 executable is promoted on zdnet.com (or pcworld.com or whatever is out there that appeals to computer users that aren't developers) any given day? Yes.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by owl57 on Friday December 13, 2019 @03:32PM (#21785157)
Do they actually promote non-game win32 executables these days? I thought current fashion is mostly services with mobile and web apps, and sometimes Electron ones?
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by yabadabadoes on Friday December 13, 2019 @12:42PM (#21783632)
Windows is not over? I see Microsoft as similar to IBM now. They will make a lot of money from their Rolodex, possibly more than they ever made before, but they no longer own a relevant platform someone would write new software for.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by yabadabadoes on Saturday December 14, 2019 @09:27AM (#21789636)
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, when a platform is dying its owner:

1. Tries to capture all profit from the edges.

2. Extracts value "unreasonably" both to grab what they still can and to create an explanation for the death. This could be high fees, ads, or extraction of market intelligence.

3. Begins embracing the new platform with compatibility layers.

4. Starts making 2 offers on everything. One with their legacy and one with the rising platforms.

5. Treats their nonfounding CEO as significant and someone to listen to.

Plenty of companies make this transition successfully (I chose IBM as the example) and make huge profits from not having to charge uniform prices across the entire market. But the discussion was the windows platform being replaced by Linux, not Microsoft profits.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by hossbeast on Friday December 13, 2019 @08:36PM (#21787201)
Are you aware of the video gaming industry
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by frank2 on Friday December 13, 2019 @09:36PM (#21787416)
Or the enterprise software industry
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by yabadabadoes on Saturday December 14, 2019 @05:59AM (#21788874)
Are you aware of IBM in the enterprise software industry? They manage to do almost all of that with their own software and open source rebundled.. No OS/2, almost no 3rd party programmers who are interested in their platform.

That is the future of Microsoft and the non-future of Windows.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by zimpenfish on Friday December 13, 2019 @10:53PM (#21787688)
Or, to a certain extent, the graphical industry?
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by yabadabadoes on Saturday December 14, 2019 @06:00AM (#21788877)
Yes, windows developers with experience are going to go work in the game industry..
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by thw0rted on Monday December 16, 2019 @07:21AM (#21802517)
This thread seems to be forgetting that Google Maps didn't just replace the atlas (for looking up names of things) and the dedicated GPS (for routing / directions), they also replaced the radar detector (OK that's Waze, but same people and same data), and the phone book.

I don't know about you, but I haven't bothered to look at any of the various "yellow pages" sites (to find a phone number or address), nor at Yelp (to find business reviews) in many years. And to make matters worse, I'm actually one of the volunteers feeding free labor / data to Maps, because I post reviews and make edits to business information. What can I say? They're really good at what they do.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by traderjane on Friday December 13, 2019 @12:31PM (#21783523)
Apple Maps is way more than 60% there in terms of quality but I still don’t find it very compelling for the same reason I won’t switch to DuckDuckGo - a palpable difference in quality gets me paranoid and makes me double check a lot of stuff.

That instinct to double check makes me go “Oh well let’s just use Google.”

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by ncmncm on Friday December 13, 2019 @02:06PM (#21784377)
Fortunately, the quality of Google searches has been declining at such a rate that you will soon be double-checking on DDG, instead.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by incompatible on Friday December 13, 2019 @09:07PM (#21787313)
It has already passed that point for me, given that Google is a) subject to censorship, on a per-country basis b) likes to return search results that don't have much to do with your query, apparently because that's what "most people" want c) records every query you make from your IP address, with no way to turn it off if you aren't logged in to a Google account d) the results I get from DDG are generally what I need.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by andai on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:28PM (#21785689)
Don't they get their results from Google, though?
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by Ndymium on Friday December 13, 2019 @04:59PM (#21785959)
No, I think it's Bing and their own index.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by jakear on Friday December 13, 2019 @10:18PM (#21787578)
It’s pretty much just Bing. Saw posted a bit ago that if you DDG “what is my user agent”, the website preview text will show that it’s Bing. Which means DDG is just whitelabling Bing’s index.

I use bing exclusively. Sometimes I don’t find what I want, and switching to google is as simple as swapping out the authority. The query syntax is the same.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by asdff on Saturday December 14, 2019 @12:27AM (#21787986)
Apple maps has gotten a lot better than release but it still has a long way to go imo. It's probably fine in the bay area at this point, but boy does it do some dumb shit in LA. It's worse than waze, and waze is worthless (an unprotected left across a six lane boulevard is just not happening, among other similar boneheaded moves).

Google also spoils me with multi modal options, although the transit estimates seem to be a complete stab in the dark and there are quirks like invisible buses. The bike timing is also useful, but the routing is usually junk and profoundly unsafe.

Living here has taught me that all these apps generally suck, just google maps seems to suck slightly less.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by biztos on Saturday December 14, 2019 @05:41AM (#21788810)
Last time I was in SF (last August) Apple Maps couldn’t even correctly locate the Walgreens stores downtown. I so much want it to be good, but Apple refuses to take it seriously even in their own back yard.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by seph-reed on Friday December 13, 2019 @03:03PM (#21784873)
I'm currently testing out https://beta.cliqz.com/

If you use Brave, you can easily choose your search engine with `:g` for google. You can also set your own shortcuts for any search box on any website.

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by sm4rk0 on Friday December 13, 2019 @03:57PM (#21785379)
It's all possible with Firefox and DuckDuckGo.
Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by mackrevinack on Saturday December 14, 2019 @01:03AM (#21788088)
you have to use the shift key to type a colon though or if you're in mobile you have to long press. same with duckduckgo's exclamation mark.

I much prefer the Firefox method where you add the search shortcut to a browser bookmark and then if you sync your bookmarks to the mobile app.

I use gg for Google, gi for Google images. dd for duckduckgo and di for ddg images etc

Re:Why Nukemap Isn't on Google Maps Anymore by nyolfen on Friday December 13, 2019 @10:07PM (#21787538)
custom search keywords have been available in firefox for at least 15 years and chrome since it was released