I was going to just disagree with you without downvoting, because I specifically was looking for cross device sync and mobile support (and specifically looked for a mobile app that supported using FIDO as a second factor to protect the vault.

However, attributing downvotes to employees/shills shows an inability to consider that there may be a good counter argument.

A SaaS model works well for both sides, I think - consumers always have the latest version and their data is highly available and safe against local events (storage failure, fire, flood etc); the business has (relatively) reliay income stream.

Hmm, thinking about it, for simple image editing stuff I still use a version of Paint Shop Pro from something like 10-15 years ago, and it still works great.

I think then that it depends on the kind of software, and the expectations of the user: is it beneficial to store data in the cloud for easy access from multiple devices?; do you want security updates? do you want new features?; do you want support?

I also use Keepass, with passwords stored on a cheap VPS using SFTP. Works great on Android with Keepass2Android too. But of course, this is not something a general comsumer is going to setup.

I agree completely. I never want to pay more than once for Photoshop/Illustrator/etc. -- and the fact that Adobe has turned those into SaaS products really annoys me.

But products like an OS, browser, cloud-synced password manager, mail client, online git hosting, etc. -- for those, I would prefer to pay a subscription fee (to a company I trust to use it well).

When I first posted this, I had multiple down votes in the span of a few seconds with barely enough time for someone to read or even process my comments. It just seemed very suspicious.

> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

> The only reason they went to the cloud is because most people were buying one copy and sharing it with multiple people.

It’s cloud-based because the majority of password management users want automatic cross-device updates without setting up their own server.

I’d it was simply storage, the. It would be an add on, but it’s not. It seems like it’s more of a strategy to increase cash flow by converting to ongoing subscriptions instead of one time purchases. This is the same motivation that switched MS Office and Photoshop over to subscriptions. There’s no compelling reason to upgrade, so you get people to fork over a credit card and forget about their reoccurring charge. Cash flow becomes more predictable and possibly increases as well. This why service contract / subscription businesses are popular among investors.

I don’t blame them for trying it, but let’s not pretend this is good for users.

The truth is that my grandmother needs a password manager and she barely understands what minimizing a window does. "Just store your vault in dropbox" is friction and that matters much more to the huge majority of users than the fact that the vault is stored on a cloud service.

Yes, completely agree. Dropbox sync has lots of gotchas and edge cases, and was particularly bad if you edited files on multiple systems (my workstation and laptop, for instance -- I use both interchangeably depending on what I'm doing).

I can understand why 1Password built their own sync service instead of playing whack-a-mole with different cloud storage providers' quirks.

Anyways all of that said, the 3rd party sync solutions all suffered from varying degrees of funkiness that just don’t exist with the native solution. Their switching to monthly pricing was, objectively, very successful and didn’t cost majority of users more money. But there are a small number of people who it rubbed the wrong way, clearly, but any business action is bound to piss some small number of people.

So? You can put the database on gdrive, icloud, dropbox, or any cloud service you want. I think most users understand the concept of creating a file, putting stuff in it, and putting it on a file syncing service (or usb drive).

Many do, many don't.

Even for those that do, there is a significant hassle in getting a file sharing service (gdrive, icloud, dropbox) etc onto every possible device they have.

I mean, I'm with you in that I'm personally pretty skeptical of the cloud-based pw solution. But I can absolutely understand the story about a much simpler user-experience that it offers.

What is this "significant hassle"? Surely it's not that much harder to install [sync app] + [password app] than it is to install [password app]?

>Many do, many don't.

I suspect the intersection between "people who don't know how to manipulate files" and "people who care enough about passwords and are willing to fork over $36/yr" isn't big.

It's literally twice as much work. Often more, because I need the password to the sync app's service. Where's that stored?

How many characters is it? Oh, it's a secure, 20-32 character password. What a pain to re-type it. Good thing it uses a ton of symbols which are a pain to type on my mobile keyboard.

> I suspect the intersection between "people who don't know how to manipulate files" and "people who care enough about passwords and are willing to fork over $36/yr" isn't big.

It's not "people who don't know how to manipulate files", it's "people who don't _like_ to manipulate files, and external services, and get them onto all of their devices".

Further, I expect the proportion of the first circle is constant and relatively small (<10%).

I expect the proportion of the second circle _was_ small, but is growing extremely rapidly.

Or no app, just add the browser extension and you're done. Seems a lot easier to me than downloading two other apps, one I have no use for other than syncing the other one.

Some people don't want to roll their own. You may, or may not agree with the concept of a fully managed solution, but for any non technical user, they want it to (borrow a phrase) "just work".

It's the majority of the addressable market.

The cloud synced updating features you're talking about work fine for me already with 1Password's iCloud-backed syncing, which is how most Mac and iOS apps sync data, it's just in that model Apple has control of my data, not 1Password (and I don't pay a subscription fee), so they make it incredibly difficult to configure that way.

Yes.

Note also I'm replying to this comment "It’s cloud-based because the majority of password management users want automatic cross-device updates without setting up their own server." Seems relevant that "cross-device updates" don't require a server (at least among Apple devices)?

[1]: https://support.1password.com/sync-with-icloud/

The whole point of using a password manager is that the passwords I create and use on my {desktop, laptop, work machine, phone} are immediately and seamlessly available to me on all of the other platforms.

As far as I know it is Cloud integration which enables this absolutely necessary and table-stakes functionality. Is that not true? Does e.g. Keepass provide this essential functionality without a Cloud integration of some kind?

IMO this was the more secure implementation (assuming 1password was only storing fully encrypted files on your 3rd party cloud preference) - even if someone broke in your Dropbox, they can’t decrypt your passwords without your master pass.

An end-to-end cloud solution provided natively by 1pass is much more user friendly and easier, but requires putting an order of magnitude more trust in 1password’s security architecture (which of course is closed source).

As an end user, it’s abundantly clear that all encryption/decryption is done locally when using the Dropbox integration since you can see the files directly in your Dropbox. I guess I didn’t make the same assumption about the 1pass cloud service for some reason.

1. 1Password Cloud

2. iCloud

3. Dropbox

And at least 2 and 3 can be used simultaneously, which is what I do, with my main vault in iCloud, and temporary vaults, e.g., passwords for a particular job, in Dropbox.

It's not as seamless as having the functionality built-in. You have to deal with logins, authorizations, etc. I wish it could be as easy as "Do you allow 1Password to use Dropbox? (Y/N)".

That isn’t the whole point of 1PW though, or at least it wasn’t at the beginning, as I saw it. It was a way to avoid having to remember a unique, secure (read: probably hard to remember) password for every service that requires one. A place to store them all so you don’t have to remember, or worse, reuse the ones you can remember, and/or use easy-to-remember ones (read: less secure). It’s in the name: one password gets you access to all your passwords. Automatic form filling and cloud sync are definitely selling points and certainly convenient, but they are also risk vectors. I’d not call cloud sync essential; I get by fine without it. I just use the WiFi sync option.

Password managers without transparent sync and autofill UX are a half-product at best.

Also like I mentioned elsewhere, I do sync my vaults, but only using the local WiFi option.

There is only one way to exfiltrate information from a notebook, it requires physical proximity, and it's very likely that you would notice.

Every rational threat model for almost every human on the planet (excepting perhaps major political, cultural, or economic figures) would conclude in the paper journal being the better (safer) choice.

For what it's worth, I use it with an ssh plugin, so I only store the database on one machine, and connect using ssh on desktop/Android.

It's also pretty straightforward to set up something like syncthing, making it easier for average person.

Something like 80% of the value prop of my password manager use is one-tap login (with FaceID) on mobile.

Handwaving this away is failing to understand the product and market at a fundamental level.

edit: literally a paper notebook with my passwords written in it is a better solution in essentially every dimension than a non-syncing password manager.

Just store it in your regular sync solution. Syncthing works great, and I don't remember any issues with Dropbox back when I used that. I'd imagine that iCloud or SkyDrive would work fine too, for the masochistically inclined.

This seamlessness is also critical for my less-technical family members on my plan. They want the better security, and recognize that a password manager is necessary. But if it was a pain to use they wouldn't put up with it.

I had to Google a workaround (creating a dummy secure note was one workaround) for the times the sync wouldn't work.

I asked why there was no Force Sync button on their support forums, and was told that they took it out because they want their paying customers to report sync issues with an error report instead of giving them an instant fix via the button.

Needless to say, as someone who has been using and paying for 1PW (upgrades and subs) since around 2008, I was not impressed with that response.

To me, the Windows and Android clients seem to be second-class citizens compared to their Apple counterparts.

They don't have a proper Linux client

You can use the pay-one-price license if you already have the motivation to use DropBox.

But on the other hand, for users who have DropBox already—possibly because they aren't using Linux—this does allow them to sync passwords without paying another $40 a year.