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Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by beat on Friday November 01, 2019 @11:39AM (#21419954)
So why do they stay at these awful jobs?

Health insurance. Fear of losing, or even changing what they have (sometimes accompanied with some very real and not just anxiety out-of-pocket costs running into the thousands of dollars).

Decoupling health insurance from employment is the #1 thing we could do to improve quality of our work. But in the long run, I dream of a day when wage labor is looked back on as nearly as terrible as chattel slavery.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by olyjohn on Friday November 01, 2019 @01:56PM (#21421836)
Also looking for a new job in a pain in the ass. First, you have to make or update your resume... which for me is like facing all of my self-hatred. As I make my resume, I spend hours trying not to feel shitty about all the things that I haven't accomplished, and feel shitty about how I don't really have the requirements for the job I want. I compare myself to everybody else in the field as I look for example resumes, realize I don't have the same kinds of accomplishments, and I have just been grinding away for the past 10 years. All this is despite the fact that I know I'm good at my job, and I've never been reprimanded or fired.

Then, I get so sick of going to 6-hour interviews where you go with each member of the team one-on-one. Then wait weeks, get a call back to come in again... Take more time off the current job, lie to your boss again... Spend an hour each time figuring out how to get there and park, and find your way around the completely unmarked campus... Then half the people apologize that they forgot you were coming. Study before hand, writing cover letters, tweaking the resume for each job... I get sick of answering the same questions over and over, when we could have just had a group interview and gotten it over with.

And if you're quitting because you're stressed and burnt out, last thing you want is another thing on your plate to be stressed and burnt out about.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by beat on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:35PM (#21422266)
Totally different perspective from mine, but certainly valid. If you're familiar with spoon theory, the spoons you spend just working are spoons you need in order to look for a new job.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by wonderwonder on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:38PM (#21420753)
I agree on the health care aspect but in addition I think people stay at these jobs because it is the norm. The grass is not assumed to be greener on the other side. We will leave a job for more money but we assume it will come with the same soul crushing workload and nonsense.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by andrei_says_ on Friday November 01, 2019 @11:57AM (#21420167)
Employee provided health insurance guarantees cheap labor and easy to abuse employees who must make a very hard choice if they are to lose health insurance.

Who would lobby for changing that balance and who would finance the campaigns of politicians that support such a reform?

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by rhcom2 on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:03PM (#21420245)
Most of the Democratic primary candidates.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by spking on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:12PM (#21420373)
It's probably time to stop expecting politicians to solve these problems for us, regardless of what they claim on the campaign trail.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by vsskanth on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:25PM (#21420572)
yeah but only they can write the law and nominate judges to enforce it.

IMO getting rid of the tax subsidy for employer sponsored insurance, enforcing anti-trust law on health providers (insurance, hospitals, etc.) by forcing them to disclose prices and getting rid of onerous licensing regulations will achieve the intended decoupling between health insurance and employment.

However, you need to pass laws for all that.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by notfromhere on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:18PM (#21420475)
medical insurance is a political problem, so the only solution is also political.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by andrei_says_ on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:06PM (#21421950)
Which is indeed very hopeful. The level of institutionalized corruption including in how money selects who appears on ballots makes this a difficult process.

This is a great reminder of the root issues we need to deal with.

https://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_...

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by beat on Friday November 01, 2019 @03:38PM (#21422875)
After having looked at it for a long time, I'm convinced that "institutionalized corruption" is a pleasing myth with no grounding in reality.

Money in politics flows to candidates who already agree with those who control the money. It doesn't go to change the minds of those who disagree.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by andrei_says_ on Sunday November 03, 2019 @12:56PM (#21435410)
please take a look at Lessig’s talk if you have 15 min
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by hiram112 on Friday November 01, 2019 @03:48PM (#21422966)
Be careful what you wish for here. Since Obamacare, most white collar workers will admit that their insurance is worse and simultaneously more expensive. That's to be expected, because those who pay insurance and are healthy are now paying for many people who previously had less of a safety net. No free lunch and all.

Obamacare has twisted some of the incentives of actually working, though. Many of us in groups like /r/financialindependence have calculated that it is now to our advantage to eventually quit work altogether, structure our investments and distributions to ensure we are right below the line where subsidies (from those who continue to work) will pay our way, while we just exit the game itself.

It will do nothing but screw those who continue to work themselves ragged as they are now subsidizing many people, like my possible future self, who have many dollars hoarded away, but refuse to be forced to work for everyone else any longer without the extra renumeration that is now sucked out by the government. And this is one of the problems with socialism.

If things move to a single payer social system under a Warren or Sanders presidency, I'd probably quit my job tomorrow. Those who continue to play the game will be working more and more for less and less.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by ThrowawayR2 on Friday November 01, 2019 @07:38PM (#21424832)
Bingo. The problem with healthcare-for-all is it's impossible to pay for without raising taxes across the board eventually, regardless of how much the candidates swear that it won't, and the voters know it. If you want European-style healthcare systems, you'll need European-level taxation.

(This is also why UBI won't ever get off the ground; voters aren't stupid. All that money has got to come from somewhere.)

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by andrei_says_ on Sunday November 03, 2019 @02:05PM (#21435847)
Raising taxes while eliminating healthcare premiums.

Replacing a system designed to extract as much as possible from people needing medical help in order to enrich corporations with a system optimized for cost and efficiency.

Insurance is already based on paying for other people’s expenses except that it’s optimized for the profit of the ones running the scheme.

So how do we pay for Medicare for all?

We take 80% of the money, return it to the payers, and pay with the rest, in the form of taxes.

I wouldn’t mind a slight increase in taxes in exchange of knowing that I and nobody else has to ever be afraid to go to the doctor because they can’t afford it.

Ambulance rides don’t need to cost $3000, or a night at the hospital $1000.

Once we have one huge entity to negotiate pricing for everyone (about the only thing insurance companies have going on for them), we won’t have to be paying 10x to 100x what the services cost to provide.

Or should we continue sacrificing human lives and health to the altar of quarterly profits for a handful of people?

Healthcare is a solved problem in all first world countries. Trying to spin it into something else is insulting.

People are not stupid and propaganda has its limits.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by jodrellblank on Friday November 01, 2019 @07:22PM (#21424735)
That's to be expected, because those who pay insurance and are healthy are now paying for many people who previously had less of a safety net. No free lunch and all.

Not necessarily to be expected, part of the goal of access to healthcare for all is that people can get treatment sooner, before problems get so bad, and get healthier, sooner. Over time if that was effective, medical costs would trend down. America doesn't seem to do that, paying more for the same treatment than other countries, but high healthcare costs are not caused by workers paying them.

But let's say that is expected, healthy people are now paying more to cover the needy. It's a kind of forced charity, and there are good reasons for personally disliking being forced to cover others expenses, sure.

But then your answer to this is to quit your job, and live off your investments? "Making your money work for you" is a polite way of saying "live off the work of others". The dividends and investment growth in that lifestyle come directly from the work done by the still-employed. Your future dream life will send you in the direction of being a shareholder squeezing and extract maximum money from the still-employed, because your survival depends on their work. In a world where everyone saved for financial independence and the pool of workers was ever shrinking, your income would dry up, so the incentives will be upon you to stop the still-employed from doing do what you did - pulling up the ladder after you.

That is, while it won't be outright legislated in a single bill in plain terms like Obamacare was, you will be all-but mandating that other people work to keep you alive, or supporting systems and legislation which has that effect. The very thing you are complaining about, being forced to help others, in your opening paragraph, will still be a system you take part in and support. You're saying "if I am compelled to pay for others, that's evil Socialism" and "if others are working themselves ragged supporting me that's great, self-interest individualism at its best".

screw those who continue to work themselves ragged as they are now subsidizing many people, like my possible future self, [..] while we just exit the game itself.

You aren't exiting the game. You can never exit. The moral answer is to not be the leech you think is so deplorable, and keep working to keep yourself alive. When you can survive on your savings without growth beyond inflation, without dividends, and with spending the principle, then maybe retire. If everyone pitches in, with more people working, there won't need to be screwed over employees working themselves ragged. That ought to benefit society collectively, which will benefit you in roundabout ways.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by Mountain_Skies on Friday November 01, 2019 @01:30PM (#21421452)
Most companies would love to do away with the expense of health insurance and all of the administrative headaches and costs that come with it. But since most full-time white collar jobs offer health insurance, changing jobs might change your coverage some but won't leave you insuranceless. Now if you want to go out on your own or create/work at a startup, health insurance can be a big issue.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by lotsofpulp on Friday November 01, 2019 @03:34PM (#21422836)
Big companies already have the HR staff to deal with health insurance. It’s in their interest to keep health insurance tied up with employment, as it gives them an advantage over small business and individuals, because individuals who work for small businesses that don’t offer health insurance have to pay for it with post tax dollars.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by beat on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:13PM (#21422014)
The worse the job, the worse the insurance, in most cases. Not all jobs are full-time skilled white collar jobs.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by aantix on Friday November 01, 2019 @11:47AM (#21420039)
How will people be compensated relative to their work value?
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by beat on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:04PM (#21420258)
Why do we need to work?

edit: I am 100% serious about this. It is already economically viable, if society chooses to do it, to simply guarantee food, decent housing, and health care to everyone, whether they work or not. At that point, what we do with our time becomes a choice, more than the choice of "work or go homeless and starve". People could still choose to exchange their time and skills for money, and most would, I think. But the coercion of the current system, and the "safety net" holes in that coercion, would disappear.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by rayiner on Friday November 01, 2019 @01:18PM (#21421309)
Why should people who work support those who choose not tow work (as opposed to people who cannot work)?

Work is an important value. Whatever economic viability the U.S. has to experiment with weird social ideas, it's because of generations of people who believed in work as a moral imperative.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by beat on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:15PM (#21422044)
This is the trap of equating "work" with "make money". Not all work is economically lucrative, even if it may provide real human value. Consider artists, for example. The arts don't pay very well, to the point that lots of people who would like to be full time professionals cannot afford to do so. But it adds tremendously to our social wealth.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by aantix on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:56PM (#21422491)
>But it adds tremendously to our social wealth.

All art adds to our social wealth?

Like anything else, some art does, lots probably doesn't. And how do we decide what is bringing us value? Which art should be promoted and which is just a scam, a big pile of poop put in a mason jar?

We circle right back to capitalism. Giving the populace a mechanism to vote for what has value and what doesn't. Money. Attention. Time. Esteem. Fame.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by beat on Friday November 01, 2019 @03:40PM (#21422899)
Capitalism has a built-in failure mode. As Peter Thiel (not exactly a commie, him) points out, capitalism only functions in its failure mode. The ideal world that all the economists and conservative politicians argue for, where pure competition sets the price, is a race to zero. In ideal capitalism, profit is impossible. Profit only happens where there is friction that prevents the market from working fully.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by aantix on Friday November 01, 2019 @03:56PM (#21423050)
And that friction is innovation.

Something that adds value. That isn't a commodity. That would be hard to copy.

Innovation's biproduct is profit.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by beat on Friday November 01, 2019 @05:21PM (#21423823)
Friction isn't necessarily innovation. When you pay $6 to get popcorn at a movie, it's not because they've created better popcorn. It's because they've created a local monopoly where you have no choice but $6 popcorn or nothing.

Really, the vast majority of profit is from non-innovative friction.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by aantix on Friday November 01, 2019 @05:46PM (#21424038)
You do have a choice - the choice not to go to an overpriced theater. People vote with their dollars all of the time.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by jodrellblank on Friday November 01, 2019 @08:19PM (#21425036)
And yet advertising works. If we really believed people have free choice, there would be no uproar about Russian interference in elections, or political advertising on Facebook and Twitter, because it wouldn't sway people's behaviour in any way. Certainly you aren't ordered around in total, but you are a finite amount of brainpower with well known biases and failure modes, and Capitalism is rewarding those who exploit them and condition people's behaviour most effectively.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by hedvig on Friday November 01, 2019 @03:22PM (#21422719)
There is no one group "supporting" another group.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by WarDores on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:13PM (#21420401)
I'd like to see a source for "It is already economically viable...". Maybe at current levels of production, but you can't just assume current levels of output in every sector while removing incentives.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by beat on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:37PM (#21420740)
Why do you think incentives are removed? Is "work or starve" the only incentive?

I'm not talking about a beachfront mansion and a Ferrari in the driveway for everyone. I'm talking about not starving. Want to be more than the bare minimum? Then choose to work. Don't care? Then don't work - not that people who don't care are effective employees anyway.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by damq on Friday November 01, 2019 @01:24PM (#21421385)
Have you tried purchasing health care before? It's not inexpensive. There's no way we could guarantee food, health care, and housing for everybody with no work requirement. Only a really stupid person would believe this could work.

You're really stupid.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by about_help on Friday November 01, 2019 @01:59PM (#21421864)
Money is an artificial construct used by humans to facilitate trading their labor amongst each other in order to get what they need to survive.

Arguments about how expensive things are make no sense if we restructure our society where money is only half the equation. The labor required to provide food, health, and housing is incredibly small compared to the overall economy.

People want to be useful, and people want more than just a place to live and food to eat.

The real danger would be in creating a system that stifles the free market side of the economy and leaves people stuck in basic assistance hell with no way of working to improve their lives. Worrying about the costs of providing basic assistance to all is actually the least important bit.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by dang on Saturday November 02, 2019 @12:53AM (#21425959)
We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by wonderwonder on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:15PM (#21420424)
If everyone stopped working, who would grow the food, build the houses or go to medical school? I do absolutely agree with the concept of a UBI but there has to always be people that work otherwise everything collapses.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by scottious on Friday November 01, 2019 @01:40PM (#21421612)
I think maybe they're suggesting that if you choose to work then you could better your life. If you chose not to work, you'd have some fairly modest no-frills lifestyle. There'd still be a strong incentive to work, but less intense pressure to always be employed. I feel like many people are in a situation where they need to have a job so they end up staying in jobs that they consider BS jobs just for that paycheck.

I think it'd be nice to have the option to not work, because then people could take risks and pursue things they otherwise couldn't... I'd never try to take a risk right now because my family is dependent on my passionless job. However if we could take a lifestyle hit (but still survive) and I could try out some business ideas or other career options that I've been thinking about maybe society as a whole could be better off.

I can't say I've thought this through entirely, but it's certainly an idea that intrigues me.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by wonderwonder on Friday November 01, 2019 @01:51PM (#21421743)
I agree with everything you have said, as well as everything the OP said. I just think we do need to really sit down and figure out the 'basics' of a UBI. I really like the concept of the Yang style $1,000 UBI as a starting point to essentially take the edge off of basic existence.

"I'd never try to take a risk right now because my family is dependent on my passionless job" - hello me.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by beat on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:36PM (#21420711)
Why would everyone stop working? If you were given the choice, would you just sit around and eat M&Ms and watch tv all day? Or would you work anyway?

Consider your examples. Who would grow the food? Farmers. Because people would grow food anyway (and do), whether or not they get paid, because it's intrinsically rewarding. Building houses? Jimmy Carter is rich and 90-odd years old and builds houses. Med school? Maybe people want to be doctors?

The jobs that are at risk in this model are the jobs that have no intrinsic value to the individual other than the paycheck.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by wonderwonder on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:54PM (#21420974)
Considering most farm workers are unskilled laborers making at or close to minimum wage, why would they work if they could get a UBI that covers all their needs? Farmers would still farm but that's because they own the land and directly benefit from it, they would not be able to perform all of the unskilled labor on their own. This could perhaps be offset if we drastically changed our guest worker program to allow unskilled labor in from other countries but it would have to be setup in a manner that denies these workers a UBI, otherwise they too would not work.

Same issue with building houses. The number of people wanting to perform unskilled labor would not come close to approaching the required need for unskilled laborers. For example I dont think anyone wants to be a roofer in the summer heat, the do it only for the paycheck.

Doctors? You are probably right, people will do it for the love of the work. I am very much pro UBI but there are still a ton of supporting things that need to be worked out.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by krapp on Friday November 01, 2019 @01:00PM (#21421046)
They will need to raise wages above what UBI offers (which will be subsistence level to begin with, likely lower than the current minimum wage) or else offer other benefits.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by beat on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:24PM (#21422142)
If "they do it only for the paycheck" is necessary for important work, how is it different from slavery? How are we not being coerced to do things that are, at the very least, unpleasant, for the majority of our waking hours?

You wind up in a world where freedom vs slavery is a distinction without a difference.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by sixstringtheory on Friday November 01, 2019 @01:39PM (#21421598)
Have you ever fed yourself completely from your own garden? That is very hard, back-breaking, dangerous (if you use machinery) work (albeit definitely rewarding). My grandfather was a dairy farmer and was missing part of a finger, knew more than one person who rolled a tractor, and at least one person who was pulled into a hay bailer.

I’d wager the marginal returns from moving beyond feeding yourself for free to feeding a nation are slim, to none, and very likely negative.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by madengr on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:51PM (#21420930)
Hobbies are intrinsically rewarding. Once you do it enough, it becomes monotonous. I don't think roofing a house or plowing a field is intrinsically rewarding past the fist few times.
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by Mountain_Skies on Friday November 01, 2019 @01:41PM (#21421629)
How many hobbyist sewer workers do you know?
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by beat on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:20PM (#21422103)
How much would I need to pay you in order to be a sewer worker? Today? Would you be willing to do it under any circumstances?
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by scarejunba on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:08PM (#21421965)
We need to work because we're barely at the productivity to sustain ourselves given our current obligations.

For instance, in order to fund CalPers, we need a lot of people to do productive work. That's on a multi-decade timer.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by CalRobert on Friday November 01, 2019 @02:17PM (#21422068)
Which is odd, given that we produce more stuff than ever before.

We have a couple of problems - a lot of the things we need most (dedicated time from doctors, teachers, etc.) are affected by Baumol's cost disease and in other categories, like housing, we have legally mandated shortages (it's illegal to create enough homes near transit, amenities, and jobs) so we will, by definition, never have enough.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by scarejunba on Saturday November 02, 2019 @03:22AM (#21426337)
Doctors also have legally mandated shortages, yes. And cost disease is a characteristic of a system not really something you can treat while retaining the other constraints (no homes, guaranteed pension returns, restrictions on number of workers, etc.)
Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by thorwasdfasdf on Friday November 01, 2019 @01:55PM (#21421823)
yup, health insurance is a very big part of it.

but also, it takes a long time to find another position.

Re:Over a Third of Americans Battle Job Burnout Every Single... by dominotw on Friday November 01, 2019 @12:52PM (#21420944)
> So why do they stay at these awful jobs? > Health insurance.

How do you know this though?