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Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by namirez on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @07:14PM (#21277102)
Also, despite the age of the universe (13.8B years), the diameter of the observable universe is 93 billion light years. That's because the universe expanded (and probably still is expanding) faster than light.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by laurencei on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:01AM (#21279053)
Can you ELI5 - how can we observe something 93 billion light years away, if the light has only been traveling for 13.8B years? Shouldnt the "observable" distance be the the age of the universe?
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by devnulloverflow on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:12AM (#21279097)
Your intuition that there is an limited observable distance because is correct. But because of the expansion, that limit is bigger than "speed_of_light * age of universe" .

I don't know enough General Relativity to give a solid explanation. But here is a rough over-simplification: Imagine you've spent the last 5 seconds blowing up a balloon, but there is an ant walking on that balloon, starting from a marked spot.

In the 1st second, the ant moved 10mm. But in the next four seconds you blew up the balloon, so that 10mm of rubber is now 70mm long. The total distance from the ant's starting mark to her end-point can now be well over than 70mm, even though she only walks at less than 10mm/second.

As the ant, so the photon.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by undreren on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:35AM (#21279461)
The ant and balloon analogy is really good from an intuition stand point. Great explanation! Well done :)
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by mywacaday on Thursday October 17, 2019 @08:29AM (#21281277)
As light is travelling within the expanding universe does the wavelength of distant light change over long time periods or does it appear the same because our observations are expanding too(my head hurts)>
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by jfengel on Thursday October 17, 2019 @11:37AM (#21283179)
Yes, the wavelength gets longer. That is, in fact, how we measure the distance: for a known frequency (say, the electrons jumping up and down in a hydrogen atom), we observe that this color is "redder" the further away an object is. The number "z" mentioned above is called the redshift because of that, and it's how we know the distances of the furthest objects.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by brutt on Thursday October 17, 2019 @07:51AM (#21281021)
Except for fact than in balloon analogy, ant is moving in a direction by balloon surface, while in our case our "balloon" is perfectly still in all directions.

Imagine that balloon is not inflated at all, but ant magically moves 70mm instead of 10mm. How this is possible???

I can accept, that our part of Laniakea is expanding, but not whole Universe.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by alisson on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:28PM (#21284995)
Sometimes I say as joke that in reality the universe are not expanding but the things inside that are shrinking.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by fragmede on Thursday October 17, 2019 @08:17AM (#21281187)
What'll really blow your mind is that it's expanding faster, not slower.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by deftnerd on Thursday October 17, 2019 @11:42AM (#21283234)
It kind of makes sense to me with some further caveats to the analogy.

If you think of the ant as a 2 dimensional creature living on a two dimensional surface of the balloon, the expansion is occurring in 3 dimensional space. The two-dimensional ant has no way to observe the space north or south (above and below, to us) its plane of existence.

Now, imagine that the balloon is in a vacuum. It had a burst of air (the big bang) for a moment to get it started but it's not the further addition of air that's driving the expansion, it's the desire to equalize pressure between the exterior vacuum and the interior matter.

With that in mind, push everything up a dimension. We're 3 dimensional creatures living in a 3 dimensional universe. That 3 dimensional universe exists as a plane in 4 dimensional space.

The 4 dimensional balloon (that our universe is surrounding) is continuing to expand into the "nothingness" on the ana plane of the 4th dimensional universe because of the "pressure" imbalance on the kata plane of the 4th dimensional universe. (In 4th dimensional spatial terms, ana and kata indicates directions on the w axis, similar to up/down on the x axis, left/right on the y axis, and north/south on the z axis)

At least, that's how I see it in my head, but I'm an odd ball who has never had a problem intuitively visualizing 4th spatial dimension objects and how they might interact with 3rd dimensional space.

As for the increased speed of the expansion... actually, I hadn't thought about that. Does it indicate that equilibrium will never be found? The balloon analogy might be a useful tool, but our universe isn't made of rubber so it might have the capability of being able to expand infinitely without breaking and without its "nature" constraining the expansion speed.

Anyway, if this is a reasonable analogy, the "nothingness" in the ana direction isn't as interesting to me as what might comprise the "pressure" that's in the kata direction that's causing the expansion. It's nothing we'd ever be able to observe or sample since it's outside of our plane of existence, but it's awfully fun to speculate about the composition and nature of it.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by dwild on Thursday October 17, 2019 @11:00AM (#21282745)
> In the 1st second, the ant moved 10mm. But in the next four seconds you blew up the balloon, so that 10mm of rubber is now 70mm long. The total distance from the ant's starting mark to her end-point can now be well over than 70mm, even though she only walks at less than 10mm/second.

Thus the expansion isn't caused by the movement of the photon but from something else? Then what caused that movement in the first place? And what cause the expansion?

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by namirez on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:31PM (#21283711)
You're right; the expansion of the universe is not related to photons. It's caused by the pressure of dark energy. There are some hypotheses but no one knows for sure what dark energy is.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by ecnahc515 on Thursday October 17, 2019 @11:05AM (#21282801)
If I understand correctly, the theory is that spacetime itself was created by the big bang. As-in, space, and time itself didn't exist prior to the big bang.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by sqreept on Thursday October 17, 2019 @11:48AM (#21283297)
And and expansion is a lengthening of something within a frame of reference. What is the frame of reference?
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by devnulloverflow on Thursday October 17, 2019 @07:10PM (#21287212)
The visible galaxies.

That is we see red-shifts when we observe distant objects. And comparing that to other distance estimates, we see that far away things are more red-shifted. As if they are moving away from us.

When we build cosmological models to explain this, we could choose reference coordinates for time and space in different ways. But if we choose to define time and distance in the usual way then we get a picture in which the distances between all galaxies is increasing with time.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by techas on Thursday October 17, 2019 @03:46AM (#21279809)
If space works as a balloon then the growth happens in all the volume of the universe (not just on the “boundary”). Is that how it works? Doesn’t that imply that we are getting “bigger”?
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by philipov on Thursday October 17, 2019 @07:20AM (#21280842)
Think of the expansion of the universe as a superlatively weak repulsive gravitational force that scales with the distance to an object. It is so weak at short scales that it is more weak than attractive gravity by a greater factor than attractive gravity is weaker than electromagnetism. It is so small at short scales that even the normal attraction of gravity is so much stronger as to make it undetectable.

However, at scales so large that gravitational attraction has attenuated to nothing, this repulsive component of gravity is still getting stronger. At the scale of galaxy clusters, it is pushing everything in the universe apart in all directions: faster the farther apart they are. At a certain distance, it becomes so strong that objects will appear to be moving away from you faster than the speed of light.

The distance at which that happens is called your Cosmological Horizon, and it has similarities to the event horizon of a black hole turned inside out. Unlike a black hole, however, there isn't a single unique event horizon. Every distinct gravitationally-bound object (galaxy cluster) in the universe has its own cosmological horizon; every other object is being pushed out towards it, and vice versa.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by ivoras on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:08AM (#21279894)
(I am not a physicist) As far as I understand the current theory (i.e. our best guess), the 4 fundamental forces are somehow countering the expansion so that, even as everything in the universe expands, including e.g. every single atom, the forces are even stronger and are pulling stuff together.

I think this just opens more questions than it resolves, and would really like to hear a better explanation.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by ggggtez on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:04AM (#21279883)
No. Just because space is expanding doesn't change the electromagnetic forces holding you together.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by ivoras on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:23AM (#21279965)
But just thinking of the electromagnetic forces in terms of what is required from them to keep matter together in the context of that same matter effectively expanding faster than the speed of light is... at best weird.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by Filligree on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:37AM (#21280038)
The speed of expansion depends on the size of the object. Human-scale things aren't expanding at the speed of light; you need to get to larger-than-galaxy-cluster scales for that to happen.

(In fact space inside galaxies isn't expanding at all, only space between galaxies. But I digress.)

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by noselasd on Thursday October 17, 2019 @06:55AM (#21280695)
It's not faster than light at the scale where there's matter in the universe. Across a planet or solar system it's not measurable.

It's when you measure between one side of the observable universe to the oposite side that the expansion speeds get crazy.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by devnulloverflow on Thursday October 17, 2019 @07:13PM (#21287229)
> Doesn’t that imply that we are getting “bigger”?

Yes, if by "we" you means "large scale cosmological structures".

But galaxies stay roughly constant size because gravity holds them together. Smaller things are also held together by various forces.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by brutt on Thursday October 17, 2019 @07:27AM (#21280877)
Where is the waves? 13.8B years is too short to make Universe smooth again after such epic event. It's like to see green grass again just 1 second after nuke blast: mathematical formulas will need lot of magic constants for this to explain.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by madaxe_again on Thursday October 17, 2019 @08:37AM (#21281355)
The universe isn’t smooth. The CMB is not uniform, and at a very large scale the universe is composed of attractors and voids, which stem from the anisotropy of the early universe.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by brutt on Thursday October 17, 2019 @08:51AM (#21281469)
For me, CMB is just light of distant stars with z=1100. Universe is composed of attractors and voids at any scale.

Anyway, I see no shockwave of any kind in CMB. Where it is? Such massive explosion, with energy of 1E53 atomic bombs and no shockwave at all just miliseconds (in scale of Universe) after the Bing Bang. How this is possible?

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by XaspR8d on Thursday October 17, 2019 @09:19AM (#21281696)
What exactly are you looking for when you say shockwave? As far as we understand it, the big bang didn't explode into something, so there isn't an outer medium to "hold" a shockwave in the obvious sense of a radially expanding region of turbulence.

Also the frequently depicted diagram of expanding from a point doesn't really intend to depict the shape of it. The universe might still be infinitely large and the big bang occurred "everywhere" within it. Where is the shockwave in something that has no edge?

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by madaxe_again on Saturday October 19, 2019 @03:18AM (#21297297)
The shockwaves are everywhere - you, right now, are in a density node.

Inflation wasn’t something that happened from a single point - it happened as a result of vacuum collapse, spontaneously, all over the place. Some of these inflationary zones went much faster than others, and where they intersected, regions of increased density, and therefore matter, occurred.

The filamentary nature of the very macroscopic universe reflects these shock intersection zones - they’re full of galaxies. We think that the voids are likely centred around points where inflation occurred.

So yeah. You’re the shockwave. Sorry man.

Here’s a decent vid from PBS Space Time where they explain some of this nice and clearly - I recommend their channel generally if these topics interest you. https://youtu.be/72cM_E6bsOs

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by zentiggr on Thursday October 17, 2019 @09:06AM (#21281581)
Look into the inflationary portion of the BB timeline, and also add in the fact that those shockwaves have had the same 13.8B years to expand and dissipate. The CMB variations _are_ the remnants of that initial period, attenuated after all this time.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by yorwba on Thursday October 17, 2019 @09:05AM (#21281567)
What do you expect that shockwave to look like? Circles expanding from the center of the explosion?
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by brutt on Thursday October 17, 2019 @09:45AM (#21281971)
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by sytelus on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:53AM (#21279280)
I'm bit confused. Regardless of expansion, these objects are right now > 13.8B ly away. So the light from them still needs that much time to get here. If light from them has arrived sooner, we would see less redshift and perceive them as a closer. No?
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by undreren on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:33AM (#21279457)
The light we see is from when the galaxy was closer. As the light left the galaxy and travelled towards us, the universe expanded "between" the photons and the galaxy.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by piva00 on Thursday October 17, 2019 @03:42AM (#21279793)
And how do we know that now the galaxy is much further away? Just by the red shift of the light emitted over time?
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by undreren on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:00AM (#21279867)
As far as I understand, yes. The red shift of the light can be measured, which tells us for how long the light has traveled.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by laurencei on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:19AM (#21279115)
Yep - I kind of understand that. Thanks.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by Hermel on Thursday October 17, 2019 @06:00AM (#21280381)
If someone in a train traveling at 108km/h throws a ball at you while passing and you catch the ball two seconds later, you also received a ball from someone “60 meters away” even though the ball only traveled a few meters. The point is: when the ball was thrown the train was much closer. Likewise, the other object was much closer when it sent out the light we see today.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by namirez on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:15PM (#21283556)
Well, it's an interesting question. Imagine a star that is 13B years old. Basically it means, the light from the star has been traveling for 13B years to reach us. You might say, then the star must be 13B light years away but that's not correct.

The thing is we cannot see such a star in visible light spectrum anymore. The light of the star has shifted to infrared or microwave. Why? Because while the light was traveling in spacetime, the spacetime itself expanded and stretched the light wavelength. When you take a redshift into account, you can correct the distance and figure out that the star must be, say, 40B light years away.

By the way, note that this is all about the observable universe. There might be stars beyond our observation horizon that we might never see due to rapid expansion of the universe.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by rokalakt1337 on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:47AM (#21280075)
So does this mean speed faster than light is possible?
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by zaarn on Thursday October 17, 2019 @05:09AM (#21280167)
Two objects can move away from eachother faster than the speed of light as seen by a third observer.

The space between objects can also expand faster than light, the object itself can still not move faster than light. If the space between two objects is expanding faster than light then for all intents and purposes, the other objects no longer exists to another. There is no way to contact or observe that object other than the light that was send your way before space went FTL.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by eru on Thursday October 17, 2019 @05:33AM (#21280276)
To give another example:

If you have a laser pointer and flick your wrist fast enough, the spot on the ground that your cat chases can move faster than light without violating any laws of physics.

That's perhaps easier to see, if you think of a giant laserpointer aimed at the moon.

Similarly, a shadow on the wall can move faster than the speed of light.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by Aenyn on Thursday October 17, 2019 @05:47AM (#21280323)
Wouldn't there be a delay between the time you flicked your wrist and the time the spot actually aligns, due to the limited speed of light?
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by doliveira on Thursday October 17, 2019 @05:57AM (#21280365)
Yeah, and observing this is a good way to see that information isn't actually being transferred faster than light.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by eru on Thursday October 17, 2019 @07:17AM (#21280826)
Yep, definitely.

An outside observer that just sees the spot on the moon (but has no clue that it's produced by you flicking your wrists), just sees a spot that moves insanely fast.

No information, energy nor matter travels faster than light here, of course.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by rokalakt1337 on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:59AM (#21289755)
Gotcha, so it appears to be moving faster, but relative to its point of reference it is not. I am wondering tho, what laws of physics state that there just is _no way_ of moving faster than light? Apologies for the lack of knowledge, I genuinely don't understand / know where this limitation is coming from.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by zaarn on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:37AM (#21289892)
I'm not sure if there is any single law that states nothing moves faster than the speed of light.

Quantum mechanics limit the spread of information to the speed of light, most wave functions including the fundamental forces propagate at the speed of light and acceleration requires increasing amounts of energy the close your come to the speed of light.

I guess one way to look at where this comes from is to look at Conway's Game of Life. A cell in this game spawns if enough neighbors are present and with some trickery you can make things that move. But due to the rules of the game, nothing moves faster than 1 square per round.

There is no explicit rule that the speed of light in that game is 1 square per round, it's just that the way the rules work, the fastest thing could only possibly be that fast. Everything is limited to this speed that doesn't exist in the game.

If you changed the rules to allow cells to die or spawn depending on cells up to 1 square inbetween in distance, the speed of light would be 2 squares and none of the rules will explicitly state this limit.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by pure-awesome on Thursday October 17, 2019 @05:33AM (#21280279)
The proper formulation of the light-speed restriction is that no information can travel between two points in space faster than light-speed.

The expansion of space itself doesn't violate that - you couldn't use it to communicate with someone in an FTL way.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by mFixman on Thursday October 17, 2019 @06:57AM (#21280703)
The comparison that helped me understand it was seeing the Universe as a balloon.

My friend and I both live at different points on the surface of a balloon with distance A. I throw a ball at light speed while the balloon is being inflated, and the distance between us is B when the ball reaches him after T time.

To my friend it seems that the ball was thrown at B / T speed, which is faster than the speed of light.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by namirez on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:17PM (#21283579)
You cannot travel faster than light in spacetime but spacetime metric can expand faster than light. There is no speed limit on the evolution of spacetime itself as far as we know.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by NetOpWibby on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @09:14PM (#21278020)
That’s fascinating to think about.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by calvertdw on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:36AM (#21278955)
As observed, it's only 13.8, though, right?
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by kijin on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:25AM (#21279137)
No, it's observed as 93 billion light years. That's why we call it the "observable" universe.

There is no meaningful spatial boundary at a point that is currently at a distance of 13.8 billion light years from us. We can detect (severely red-shifted) photons from beyond that point perfectly fine! The actual boundary is 46.5 billion light years away in both directions, hence the "observable" diameter of 93 billion.

But of course the meaning of "observed" is kinda strange here, since we're not directly measuring the distance but estimating it based on from other observations.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by Udik on Thursday October 17, 2019 @01:41AM (#21279219)
Where I supposed that "observed as <distance>" just means how much red-shifted its light is- we don't really have any other way to measure such distances. This in turn only measures how much the space has expanded between us and the original starting point, much closer than 13 billion light years away. So we can say that we're seeing a star that is "now" 46 billion ly from us, but must have been only a few billion ly away when it emitted the light we're receiving. Correct?
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by kijin on Thursday October 17, 2019 @08:06AM (#21281112)
You're right. The star could not have been more than a few billion light years away when it emitted the photons that we're seeing. Otherwise, not only would the photons have not reached us yet, they will probably never reach us because the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by pkofod on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:16AM (#21279941)
I feel so stupid when talking and hearing about physics... but we are not in any meaningful way "at the center" of the universe are we? Or is every point in some sense at the center (a point of reference thing)? I'm asking because why would it be 46.5 "each way"?
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by irishsultan on Thursday October 17, 2019 @06:00AM (#21280382)
We are at the center of the observable universe. And not that's not special, any star/galaxy is at the center of it's observable universe.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by spc476 on Thursday October 17, 2019 @04:33AM (#21280017)
Imagine we exist in a 2D universe, but one that happens to be the surface of a sphere. Any point you pick on that surface is "at the center of the universe."
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by eru on Thursday October 17, 2019 @05:36AM (#21280283)
Hmm, but it looks like the universe is flat, doesn't it?

(Or is it flat like a torus, so doesn't need any curvature to go loop on itself?)

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by kijin on Thursday October 17, 2019 @08:14AM (#21281168)
Cosmologists talk about "horizons" a lot, and the analogy of standing on a sphere actually works quite well. Remember that horizons only make sense on curved surfaces. You can't see beyond the point where certain features of spacetime (black holes, expansion, or sheer distance) prevent signals from reaching you, just as you can't see beyond a mountain range or the curvature of Earth itself. Of course you'll need to extrapolate the analogy to three, four, or more dimensions, but the basic idea is the same.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by eru on Thursday October 17, 2019 @11:06PM (#21288330)
I'm not talking about our own light cone. I'm talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe

Basically, ignoring wormholes and black holes and assuming that spacetime is locally flat everywhere and it's mathematically a manifold, my question is: what's the shape of the (global) universe?

Global as opposed to observable. So we might have a hard time answering that question. How would you be able to distinguish between the (n-dimensional equivalent of) a torus vs a flat infinite space, if you can't see the repetition?

You'd even have a hard time distinguishing a hypersphere from a flat infinite space, if the hypesphere was big enough so that we can't tell it's curvature apart from no curvature.

Or the universe might be weirdly shaped, and we just happen to live in the flat part.

So I guess the question comes down to:

* assuming no edges * assume Copernicus at least for space (we might have a special position in time) * What's the simplest theory about the shape of the global universe that satisfies our observations?

I suspect general relativity toys around with such questions, because I know that they sometimes look at cosmological (toy) models for the whole universe, and not just what's in the light cone of one particular observer.

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by simiones on Thursday October 17, 2019 @06:00AM (#21280380)
We are by definition almost at the center of the universe that we can observe - we can see as far away in any direction.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by eecc on Thursday October 17, 2019 @05:55AM (#21280354)
Aah of course... somehow we should believe that at some stage something accelerated to an impossible - according to all current observation - speed and then decelerated, somehow dissipating this energy somewhere.

Just to fit a bunch of observations that wouldn't otherwise make sense for the current model.

I remember the story of a chap from Pisa having a hard time trying to budge a bunch of clerics to consider his observations proof that their model was broken. ;)

Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by caspper69 on Thursday October 17, 2019 @05:59AM (#21280376)
No, it is that spacetime itself is expanding. Nothing with mass accelerated to an impossible speed.
Re:How Can a Star Be Older Than the Universe? by eecc on Tuesday October 22, 2019 @07:28AM (#21322421)
Ah right, of course. So what caused space time expansion to accelerate and then the opposite?