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Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by bko on Saturday September 14, 2019 @01:10PM (#20972206)
> Hey do you mind if we just skip the paperwork part and just control currency, while actually being a social media tech giant

This is a gross mischaracterization of what Libra is. Libra is a token that's backed 1 to 1 on some basket of currencies and mostly government bonds. The Libra foundation makes money by taking a portion of the investment return to fund themselves, much like a brokerage takes a bit of the return when they invest your cash account. Thats it.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by jayd16 on Saturday September 14, 2019 @02:30PM (#20972764)
Then create a bank. But that's not what this is. They want to make a bank that prints its own currency and skips the paperwork needed for current monetary exchange. It's just as OP has said.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by bko on Saturday September 14, 2019 @02:49PM (#20972891)
Banks don't follow full reserve banking. They follow fractional reserve banking. When you put 1 Euro in the bank, they have discretion as to how to invest this amount and only need to keep a fraction of your money in reserves. With a bank I'm also stuck being exposed to the currency of my account. And European banks often have fees or minimum balances. Libra offers benefits to banks and is safer.

[edit] The idea of a bank holding 1 to 1 reserves is called narrow banking.

> It’s a “narrow banking” model that would back its deposits with 100 percent reserves, located at what is deemed by nearly everyone as the safest of safe locations —the U.S. central bank

Ironically the US Federal Reserve tried to stop the creation of a narrow bank because it would undermine fractional reserve banks.

[0] https://www.brookings.edu/research/the-fed-wants-to-veto-sta...

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by jayd16 on Saturday September 14, 2019 @02:55PM (#20972931)
How is Libra a full reserve bank if investment is how they make their money? It doesn't sound any different at all except there's no regulations and no government backing (such as FDIC guarantees).
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by bko on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:07PM (#20972997)
Full reserve:

> By fully backing each coin with a set of stable and liquid assets (described later) and by working with a competitive group of exchanges and other liquidity providers, users can have confidence that they will be able to sell any Libra coin at or close to the value of the reserve at any time. [0]

They'll fund expenses from the return of the investments.

> How will the reserve be invested? Users of Libra do not receive a return from the reserve. The reserve will be invested in low-risk assets that will yield interest over time. The revenue from this interest will first go to support the operating expenses of the association — to fund investments in the growth and development of the ecosystem, grants to nonprofit and multilateral organizations, engineering research, etc. [0]

Brokerages do this as well and earn most of their money this way (people keep cash in brokerage account and brokerage invests and earns interest).

> 57% of Schwab’s revenues are from net interest. The firm could literally give away every other service; discount the mutual fund fees to zero, do away with commissions, etc etc, and they would still be profitable. [1]

[0] https://libra.org/en-US/about-currency-reserve/#the_reserve

[1] https://www.kalzumeus.com/2019/6/26/how-brokerages-make-mone...

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by jayd16 on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:35PM (#20973196)
That doesn't sound like a full reserve though as its not 100% cash. It says right there that its partially invested in risky assets. Whether they're low risk is just an opinion.

But even assuming it was a full reserve, I don't think its fundamentally different enough to be allowed to skirt the existing laws.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by bko on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:50PM (#20973269)
Fair point, its not cash. But generally in banking, cash and cash-like products are equivalent. I think they'll make public the actual investment breakdown.

It's different enough from banks because its matched one for one with some asset. It's essentially a passthrough investment. The reason banks are so highly regulated is that they participate in fractional reserve banking where they take in deposits and invest in highly risky assets. That and deposits are guaranteed by FDIC or similar agencies.

Should Starbucks be regulated as a bank because they let you prepay for a cup of coffee?

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Saturday September 14, 2019 @05:44PM (#20974011)
> But generally in banking, cash and cash-like products are equivalent.

Except it's not. Well, maybe it is "generally", but fractional reserves in particular are, by definition, central bank money, and only central bank money. So, strictly speaking, cash or central bank deposits. Not bonds, not loans, not equity. Only central bank money.

> It's different enough from banks because its matched one for one with some asset.

In other words: It is exactly like a bank. Every loan any bank ever makes is matched with some asset, if it weren't, they'd be called gifts and not loans.

> The reason banks are so highly regulated is that they participate in fractional reserve banking where they take in deposits and invest in highly risky assets.

That doesn't even make sense. How would the fact that a bank has (supposedly) lower reserve requirements mean that "regulation" is required more? The whole point of regulation and oversight is to make sure that the minimum reserve is there, not that there isn't too much reserve, and if a bank supposedly had a 100% reserve requirement (because that is what they promise their customers, say), that would , if anything, make it even more important to check that that is actually true.

The whole reason why all of that regulation and oversight exists is not because banks have promised their customers too little, but because banks over and over and over told their customers one thing, but actually did something completely different, and ususally that means something a lot more risky.

The fact that Facebook promises to do something really good is exactly zero reason to do away with mechanisms that exist to make sure that promises are held.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by gwenzek on Sunday September 15, 2019 @04:34AM (#20976201)
> Every loan any bank ever makes is matched with some asset.

This was true 200 years ago not anymore. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation#Credit_theory...

Only 3% need to be matched IIRC

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Sunday September 15, 2019 @05:19AM (#20976322)
Quoting from the section that you linked to:

> When a bank issues a loan of $1000 to a customer, they debit the customer's loan account with $1000 and at the same time they credit the customer's deposit account with $1000, ready for using. The bank now has a new asset of $1000 and a new liability of $1000.

So ... do you have a source that supports your claim rather than mine?

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by jayd16 on Saturday September 14, 2019 @04:03PM (#20973370)
>Should Starbucks be regulated as a bank because they let you prepay for a cup of coffee?

Well this might just be where we simply disagree but I would say yes. Those Starbucks cards are often used as a way to launder money from country to country. You can't transfer balances from one individual to another as far as I'm aware so it's not nearly as problematic, though.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by seppel on Saturday September 14, 2019 @05:53PM (#20974072)
> Should Starbucks be regulated as a bank because they let you prepay for a cup of coffee?

In Germany, you might actually need a permit from the financial regulation (BaFin) if you offer gift or prepaid cards, at least if you store the value online (and maybe some other conditions).

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by insulanus on Sunday September 15, 2019 @12:05AM (#20975522)
> Should Starbucks be regulated as a bank because they let you prepay for a cup of coffee?

Yes. Including how the funds in the pre-paid card are managed and invested, and certainly including all the rules about when the user is allowed to reclaim their money.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by insulanus on Sunday September 15, 2019 @12:03AM (#20975516)
> How will the reserve be invested? Users of Libra do not receive a return from the reserve. The reserve will be invested in low-risk assets that will yield interest over time. The revenue from this interest will first go to support the operating expenses of the association — to fund investments in the growth and development of the ecosystem, grants to nonprofit and multilateral organizations, engineering research, etc. [0]

If I were a country's finance minister, this single paragraph would be enough to get me to say "no".

This currency generates returns, which we don't see, and we don't control the allocation of. basically, it's slowly bleeding money out of the countries that use it, though accumulation of capital and capital investing.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by kortilla on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:07PM (#20972998)
Do you understand what 1:1 means in the context of banking?
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by Matumio on Sunday September 15, 2019 @04:01AM (#20976118)
> When you put 1 Euro in the bank, they have discretion as to how to invest this amount and only need to keep a fraction of your money in reserves.

That's... misleading? When you put 1 Euro into the bank, it allows them to hand out credits (promises) of 20 Euro. They don't just loan out what you paid in. They create their own money.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by insulanus on Sunday September 15, 2019 @12:00AM (#20975510)
> > > It’s a “narrow banking” model that would back its deposits with 100 percent reserves, located at what is deemed by nearly everyone as the safest of safe locations —the U.S. central bank

Let's say I'm a country, say, not the U.S. Could you see me having a problem with having my currency backed by a U.S. corporation, who's reserves are held in the U.S. central bank?

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by buboard on Saturday September 14, 2019 @04:32PM (#20973576)
Libra is meant to be safer and better than a bank. Seems almost impossible to fail, it has 100% reserve backing while banks have < 2% in europe. It supports instant payments even in the most remote regions of the eart. It will be a terrible competitor for banks, if it works. The problem is that it s backed by a conglomerate that is too big to trust.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by viraptor on Saturday September 14, 2019 @04:51PM (#20973701)
I'll take regulated 2% over promised 100%. Otherwise we get another Tether story: https://cointelegraph.com/news/fractional-reserve-stablecoin...
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by tripzilch on Monday September 16, 2019 @08:15AM (#20983274)
It's also backed by a conglomerate that simply hasn't been around long enough to be safer than a bank.

Yet in its short lifetime, Facebook has been able to prove itself very untrustworthy towards consumers.

It's not too big to trust, it's just untrustworthy. The fact that it's also big, makes trusting it an even worse idea.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by lostjohnny on Monday September 16, 2019 @04:49AM (#20982192)
> It supports instant payments even in the most remote regions of the eart

no, they don't.

still need an internet connection and two person with a libra account.

Anyway, you can do the same thing with paypal...

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by gjulianm on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:05PM (#20972983)
> Libra is a token that's backed 1 to 1 on some basket of currencies and mostly government bonds

And that architecture is decided by the Libra foundation, therefore they control currency.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by lostlogin on Saturday September 14, 2019 @02:27PM (#20972736)
I’ll stick to using my money as money thanks. It works fine.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by bko on Saturday September 14, 2019 @02:46PM (#20972867)
I'm glad that you live in a country with a stable monetary supply, little to no inflation and no capital controls.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by lostjohnny on Monday September 16, 2019 @04:50AM (#20982196)
and the solution is "let facebook be your central bank and currency supplier"?
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by IGotThroughIt on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:40PM (#20973226)
Indeedy. My country has 7% inflation. And that calculation is done by the very state that is responsible for inflation so their word on this only means so much. Any other currency or store of value that solves this is more than welcome.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by twistiti on Saturday September 14, 2019 @04:53PM (#20973710)
Would it be a solution for you to buy foreign currencies with lower inflation amount (e.g. EUR)?
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by azernik on Saturday September 14, 2019 @07:30PM (#20974524)
"capital controls" generally includes foreign exchange controls, i.e. restrictions on conversion to foreign currency and local use of foreign currency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_controls

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by meschi on Saturday September 14, 2019 @09:02PM (#20974895)
And why should this be different for a private currency controlled by facebook?
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by austhrow743 on Saturday September 14, 2019 @10:34PM (#20975219)
It shouldn't. All capital control is terrible. It could be different though.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by IGotThroughIt on Sunday September 15, 2019 @06:14PM (#20979770)
A lot of wealthy people do that. It isn't as straight forward though. It would be nice to be able to do so on the internet and for smaller amounts.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Saturday September 14, 2019 @05:52PM (#20974068)
Because obviously an instrument backed by foreign currencies will be the solution to capital controls?!
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by jeena on Saturday September 14, 2019 @02:46PM (#20972870)
Not in Sweden anymore, most of the lunch places in Gothenburg where I live don't allow payment by cache anymore. If you have money but not digital, you will go hungry nowadays.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by ahakki on Saturday September 14, 2019 @07:03PM (#20974419)
This would never fly in Switzerland. You need to accept Swiss Franc Banknotes of any denomination as settlement for any monetary debt (this includes a purchase of a 1.- stick of gum paid for with a CHF 1000 Bill. there will be some arguing required for that one in practice, but the law is clear).
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by phlo on Sunday September 15, 2019 @05:20AM (#20976324)
Wrong.

The relevant law (art. 3 WZG[0]) requires persons to accept all banknotes (and up to 100 coins per transaction) as payment, but this only applies after a contract has been formed. It's perfectly legal for any store to indicate to customers that it will not accept large-denomination notes or cards[1]. If the customer is not willing or capable to pay using the accepted means of payment, no contract is formed, and the chewing gum remains with the store.

[0] https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classified-compilation/19994336/...

[1] https://www.srf.ch/sendungen/kassensturz-espresso/geschaefte...

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by ahakki on Sunday September 15, 2019 @10:36AM (#20977376)
You say that, Espresso is a good source for this kind of thing and I'm not saying your wrong. But the letter of the law does state that everyone has to accept Swiss banknotes with no restrictions.

My personal legal asessment: If you were to form a contravt for purchase of goods and stipulated ahead of time that payment will be made in small bills (or electronic payments only), receiving payment with 1000.- bills would give the right to demand compensation related to handling large bills (security, verification etc.) due to the contractual breach, but it would not allow you to deny the money and demand payment as contracted.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by mehrdadn on Sunday September 15, 2019 @05:22AM (#20976329)
As I understand in the US a purchase is not the same thing as a debt, i.e. nobody has to accept any particular type of currency for a purchase, only for a debt. Is Switzerland really different here?
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by throwaway744678 on Saturday September 14, 2019 @06:44PM (#20974331)
Is that even allowed? I don't know the specific law here, but in my country (France) a shop can not legally refuse to be paid in the legal currency (in cash). It can refuse credit card or checks, though.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by chucky on Saturday September 14, 2019 @11:42PM (#20975450)
How I wish it was this way in Sweden. Unfortunately it's not - there is no requirement to accept any specific kind of payment and it's by now rare to see anyone pay with cash.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by coolfragrances on Saturday September 14, 2019 @07:21PM (#20974493)
This is the first time I've heard of something like this. I grew up in Greece during the mass deflation of the currency and people wouldn't accept anything but cash. Interesting to learn that it works both ways.
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by ClumsyPilot on Sunday September 15, 2019 @08:24PM (#20980262)
That's what they promise today, a cartel of private corporations accountable to no-one, and with a legal obligation to maximise profits.

They will break this promise to maximise profits, and there is sod-all you can do about it.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by dmoy on Saturday September 14, 2019 @01:30PM (#20972351)
> portion of the investment return

I'm not super on top of a lot of the details here, but I thought Libra was like a currency. What investment return?

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by rolltiide on Saturday September 14, 2019 @02:06PM (#20972593)
The foundation and validators have various ways of making a return

The users do not.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by dmoy on Sunday September 15, 2019 @01:42AM (#20975766)
Sure but how is that an investment return? Usually when you hear "take a portion of the investment returns" you're thinking expense ratios, some small fraction of the returns that the user is getting.

If the user gets no additional returns, then it's just a fee, no?

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by rolltiide on Sunday September 15, 2019 @03:47AM (#20976085)
Validators pay $10,000,000 for the privilege of processing transactions and collect transaction fees and can probably resale that privilege with a premium based on their absolute return, which would be called yield. They buy originally from the foundation, and thats how the foundation makes its first $1,000,000,000 dollars. These validators and other accredited investors also get access to a completely parallel asset called LIT, Libra Investment Token, which has value based on typical securities fundamentals.

The users get the stablecoin and are resigned to only possibly trying to speculate on foreign exchange rate changes, which are entirely inferior to the other opportunities such that it shouldn't even be considered. Users only have the opportunity to be users.

Probably time to read the white paper again if you really want to have a more nuanced discussion.

Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by arethuza on Saturday September 14, 2019 @01:32PM (#20972368)
Isn't it highly likely that any crypto currency will be seen as a vehicle for speculation?
Re:France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra by wbl on Saturday September 14, 2019 @02:28PM (#20972743)
Libra is a money market fund with a unique way of tracking ownership. That's it.