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Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by blauditore on Friday May 10, 2019 @03:54AM (#19875942)
So Apple is trying what Microsoft did years ago: Platform convergence.

It's quite ironic because as far as I remember, Apple used to have a strong stance against that, showing e.g. by the fact that Macbooks never come with touch screens.

Also, there was a loud opposition at least by power users who didn't like that change (sometimes just for the sake of hating change or hating MS IMO). Let's see if it will be different in this case.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by hrktb on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:13AM (#19876019)
I don't know how Marzipan will turn out, but Microsoft has a history of trying good ideas way before they are viable and make the whole concept look unhealthy.

For instance PDAs and 'smartphones' where tried and got mild commercial viability way ahead of time with Windows Pocket, but they couldn't push it to the point it could be mainstream. Tablets were also tried first. Netbooks. Motion tracking in games. ARM base laptops (we're not there yet, but that should be coming ?)

I almost prefer Google's attitude of just launching and roughlessly killing new products, the stigma left is smaller.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by oblio on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:32AM (#19876100)
> Microsoft has a history of trying good ideas way before they are viable and make the whole concept look unhealthy.

I think it also had to do with their sheer size. Researching stuff is fine, but in many cases they were pushing out half-baked solution with the force of the herd of elephants that Microsoft is. Had a company 1/100th their size tried the same thing, no big deal, just ignore it.

But when a company worth $1tn these days does the same thing, whatever they're promoting is seen everywhere.

They really needed something in-between Microsoft Research (research almost nobody sees) and full blown Microsoft. Maybe a Microsoft Skunkworks Startup? :)

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by dominotw on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:57AM (#19876896)
Zune and zune subscription music were not half baked though. I used it for years. It was simply ahead of its time. Even jobs said subscription music would never be a thing because ppl want to own their music.
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by dangus on Friday May 10, 2019 @02:29PM (#19880766)
It was definitely ahead of its time, because people forget about what makes Spotify/Apple Music/Google Play so much better than purchased music: Persistent Internet Connection.

The iPod, Zune, and Creative Nomad existed for something like 7 or more years before smartphones came around.

It's great that you could subscribe to a music service and sync with whatever songs you wanted, but that doesn't seem terribly useful compared to purchasing albums if you have no ability to queue up any song on demand.

Spotify feels more like unlimited access than those subscription services ever did.

As for Jobs' opinion, I think he mostly just held very personal feelings toward albums as a dude who grew up in the classic rock era. Plus, at the time, subscription services existed and just weren't very popular (see above).

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by scarface74 on Friday May 10, 2019 @08:04AM (#19876942)
Jobs saw the train wrecks of previous subscription services like Pressplay that came out in 2001.
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by Marazan on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:55AM (#19876181)
Microsoft (+ Intel) murdered the netbook in one of the most insane self sabotaging plays I have ever seen.

Combine that with the launch of the ipad and the future of ARM based laptops was delayed over a decade. Netbook makers were poised to release Arm netbooks only to get scared when the ipad was announced.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by dTal on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:54AM (#19876885)
It wasn't self-sabotaging. The first netbooks ran Linux and ran okay, at a time when Microsoft was about to EOL Windows XP and Vista absolutely wouldn't run on such devices. If they'd caught on, it could have spelled the end of Microsoft desktop hegemony. It prompted a panicked reaction of extending the service life of XP, while introducing restrictive licensing to pitiful 1024x600 displays (which fit the current crop, but restricted their growth). It was a classic "embrace/extinguish" response to an existential threat.
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by IOT_Apprentice on Friday May 10, 2019 @03:25PM (#19881342)
Apple with the iPad and revisions of the MacBook Air murdered the netbook.And Google Android as a platform smothered Windows Phone completely.
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by scarface74 on Friday May 10, 2019 @08:06AM (#19876952)
ARM netbooks running what in 2010?
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by Marazan on Friday May 10, 2019 @12:42PM (#19879519)
Linux although some were going to go with android
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by TeMPOraL on Friday May 10, 2019 @05:12AM (#19876247)
I don't know what makes people react the way they do so that MS ahead-of-time releases "make the whole concept look unhealthy".

PDAs and 'smartphones' didn't become mainstream pre-Apple, but their design was also more productive. Were it to catch on, we'd have better tools. Microsoft still makes superior tablets, and the only OS for tablets that's usable for productive work.

I only wish they didn't rush to market with Windows phones. Their UI language was a breath of fresh air, and they had a chance to make good smartphones for pro users and professionals. People usually blame the app store, but based on my brother's experience with an early Windows Phone, IMO they released the OS with way too little built-in features compared to contemporary Android systems. It could have survived longer were it more functional out of the box.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by jhbadger on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:01AM (#19876671)
PDAs like the Palm Pilot (and to a lesser degree Windows CE devices like the iPAQ) were quite mainstream in the late 1990s/early 2000s. Not only did I and my friends have one (in fact I went through several) but even my elderly mother did (although she mostly played solitaire on hers).
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by coldtea on Friday May 10, 2019 @05:31AM (#19876305)
>PDAs and 'smartphones' didn't become mainstream pre-Apple, but their design was also more productive.

More productive than your current iPhone or Android phone?

That's some seriously rose colored glasses.

And I had $800 "smartphones" pre iPhone, and they were all crap...

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by ChrisRR on Friday May 10, 2019 @08:06AM (#19876954)
Not more productive than the original iPhone which didn't have apps, 3G or Flash
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by toasterlovin on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:35AM (#19877527)
Apps and 3G literally came the following model year. Flash never mattered for anybody on mobile.
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by IOT_Apprentice on Friday May 10, 2019 @03:22PM (#19881309)
Flash as a productivity app? Even Flex was an abomination on the desktop.
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by dangus on Friday May 10, 2019 @02:31PM (#19880785)
What it has was a usable web browser.
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by pjmlp on Friday May 10, 2019 @05:41AM (#19876354)
My 500 euro Symbian smartphones were quite ok, and by the time the unfortunate "Burning Platform" memo arrived, it was quite good and Symbian C++ was finally on its way out, we had Qt, Java, Python and Web Widgets to play with as platform languages.
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by hrktb on Friday May 10, 2019 @06:27AM (#19876530)
> PDAs and 'smartphones' didn't become mainstream pre-Apple, but their design was also more productive. Were it to catch on, we'd have better tools.

I know a sizeable number of people were extremely productive on their PDAs. Yet I think there was heavy downsides that were only overcome by sheer dedication from super users:

- laughable battery time, difficult to extend compared to other portable devices

- cell connectivity was just not a thing, or it would half the already thin battery time (tried with a compact flash modem)

- carrier support was super limited where I was, I had to get a new contract from a geeky carrier just for the device.

- downloading and running software from the device itself was possible yet there was very few stuff that could be downloaded, making the device mostly a side companion to a computer

I used a Toshiba PDA on and off for a year, tried a Compaq one as there seem to be more enthusiast on it, it still felt like it wasn't going anywhere with really little to no engagement from Microsoft from a standard user perspective.

Disclaimer: it was in Japan, but comparing PDAs to feature phones, phones had:

- a workable camera very early on

- a decent ecosystem of Java apps downloadable from the phone without any computer reliance (and they were fairly easy to code)

- decent battery life, easy to extend

- fast and efficient mailers (though lack of attachment support and alternative accounts was a pain)

- very good connectivity, of course

- decent calendar/reminder/contacts features (not auto synced though, which was a PITA)

Genuinely, in a lot of aspects, feature phones were more 'professional' and productive than PDAs for anyone in the go or heavily relying on a mobile device. Just like the iPhone is now, really.

The windows CE phones were a step in the right direction, but they still didn't get major carrier buyin, and battery life was still way lower than their generation's feature phone who were starting to get GPS, MP3 players, payment apps etc.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by TeMPOraL on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:46AM (#19876848)
Note that while the downsides you mention were naturally overcome by smartphones today, they're a) kind of expected to be improved on by progress of technology, and b) are completely orthogonal to the features of the PDAs which were not replicated in smartphones of today. Like, physical keyboards, stylus access, productivity-oriented OS.

Pieces of a perfect productivity tool are, or were, all there, scattered across time and devices. PDAs, feature phones, modern smartphones. For some reason, they were not put in a single package so far.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by hrktb on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:44AM (#19877593)
You are right that a lot of features weren't brought to current smartphones, just as current OS are not 'productivity' focused the same way windows is for instance.

I personally think it's because they just weren't worth it for the general public (including pros). Keyboards on android devices didn't convince, interestingly stylus and heavy multitasking are kicking and alive on the Samsung Note series, but only on the iPad for iOS.

'PDA's for specific, dedicated use cases are still a ton in the wild, just as custom android devices also flourish in the manufacture, retail or goods management world (basically "true" productivity-oriented worlds). They found their niche in that respect, the same way Google Glass also went to the business world in face of customer resistance. I see it as a natural evolution in that respect.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by dspillett on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:55AM (#19876184)
Tablets they were definitely ahead of the game on, though the hardware wasn't ready to be affordable the OS has never done well in that environment so it didn't work out.

I'm not so sure about netbooks though: I remember that being something the played "catchup or kill" on. Any links to refresh my history?

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by laumars on Friday May 10, 2019 @08:18AM (#19877010)
You're right about Netbooks. Microsoft were late to the game on that one. All the early ones were Linux - and still hugely popular too. Microsoft then had to heavily "subsidise" XP to even compete (there's a lot more to it than that but that was the essence of it).

Interestingly Apple said they had no interest in the Netbook market. They released the MacBook Air which had a roughly equivolent form factor but at a wildly different price point.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by dspillett on Wednesday May 15, 2019 @09:22AM (#19919113)
> "subsidise" XP

Not just that: they effectively had to extend its life as there was no way Vista was going to run well on those small devices and 7 wasn't ready for roll-out.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by zeveb on Friday May 10, 2019 @06:02AM (#19876430)
Apple, too! Don’t forget the Newton and the Macintosh TV.
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by coldtea on Friday May 10, 2019 @05:30AM (#19876303)
>So Apple is trying what Microsoft did years ago: Platform convergence.

Mostly API convergence. Which they have been doing for years now (adding UIKit parity to OS X), Marzipan is just the latest and more encompassing version.

>It's quite ironic because as far as I remember, Apple used to have a strong stance against that, showing e.g. by the fact that Macbooks never come with touch screens.

And they still consider those two as different use cases, better served with different UIs.

Marzipan is not about sharing the UI paradigms -- its about making it easier to port common code.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by po on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:46AM (#19876150)
The mistake Microsoft made was to stubbornly tie user interface convergence to their platform convergence effort. Everything had to be Windows so everything got start buttons and all kinds of cruft that wasn't needed and lead to bad experience.

Making platforms more similar so it easier to target that platform is very nice for developers. If you can do it without losing what makes users want the different devices then there's no downside.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by arrrg on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:03AM (#19875985)
It is similar, but it’s also different. I still think Apple wants to avoid mixed mouse and touch interfaces and also wants to avoid switching on the fly between those two interactions models on the same device. Their goal will be to give developers the tools to use a shared codebase, but still being able to provide the right accommodations for mouse input on the Mac. I don’t think touchscreen Macs are planned.

How well they can pull that off is a different question altogether.

Mac users feel neglected anyway, so I’m very willing to let them try.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by brorfred on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:40AM (#19876129)
App convergence over different operating systems seems to bigger trend than platform convergence within an ecosystem, and Marzipan seems be Apple's response to that. I would much rather run a version of Slack's iPhone app than the electron version I'm stuck with at the moment.
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by scarface74 on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:00AM (#19876667)
The toolkit is not meant to just let you port the app directly from iPad to Mac even though you can. Just like you can just press a button and have an “iPad app”, you should make affordances for the Mac just like you do when moving an app from the iPhone to the iPad. That’s the entire point of the article.

To get an idea, the developer has been playing with a tool he wrote that lets him take an x86 build of an iOS app - when you run any iOS app in the simulator it creates an x86 build - and “marzanipies” it.

For instance he took a binary build of Marco’s Overcast app (with permission) and turned it into a Mac app.

https://twitter.com/cultofmac/status/1123962629645656065

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by flohofwoe on Friday May 10, 2019 @05:24AM (#19876282)
If Marzipan gives me an easy way to debug my iOS Metal apps on macOS (which isn't possible with the simulator), then it's already "good enough" for me.

I wouldn't read too much else into the project otherwise. Running iOS apps on a Mac may be useful for apps that are not much more than a glorified webpage (so... hmm, most apps?), but it won't be the way to "unify" the mobile and desktop worlds (which still doesn't make sense anyway).

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by shusson on Friday May 10, 2019 @03:59AM (#19875958)
> Microsoft did years ago: Platform convergence.

What other platforms did Microsoft have? I can only remember windows phone, but that never seemed that popular.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by xeeeeeeeeeeenu on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:58AM (#19876196)
UWP targets Windows 10, Windows 10 Mobile, Xbox One and HoloLens.
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by thrower123 on Friday May 10, 2019 @09:06AM (#19877316)
There really exists no good reason that you would want to have the same UI across all of those platforms, for anything beyond the toy examples that the Windows Store has been plagued with. The display and input device constraints are nearly disjoint, unless you go to an incredibly basic common denominator.

I've always been a Windows dev, and I've never seen a compelling reason to take up UWP.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by WorldMaker on Friday May 10, 2019 @12:33PM (#19879412)
I disagree. I think UWP has done a really good job technically behind the scenes, but poorly explained publicly of showing how one device's display and input device constraints are another device's accessibility/ease of use guidelines. That the basic "common denominator" made things easier/better to use in general for everyone, even if users/devices were capable of fewer constraints and more guideline breaking.

In addition, UWP and Fluent Design System had a hard time coming back from "these are the constraints in all situations" to "here's how you flex when these are the constraints of the current system versus when they are merely guidelines that you can break if your user accepts it". That became a focus in Fluent Design System 2.0, but it certainly does feel like it may have been too late avoid the "worst common denominator" branding that Fluent and UWP got painted with early on.

UWP/Fluent did a lot of things right technically that Apple should apply to efforts like Marzipan, they just might not realize it based on the tarnished brand.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by coldtea on Friday May 10, 2019 @05:33AM (#19876314)
>Windows 10 Mobile

And all their 5 users?

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by tpush on Friday May 10, 2019 @06:17AM (#19876493)
Are comments like that really necessary?
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by coldtea on Friday May 10, 2019 @08:59AM (#19877274)
Necessary no. Hurtful? I don't think so, if I may say so myself.

It's a comment to put into perspective the relative insignificance of the platform -- and thus that the statement of the parent that it supported that too doesn't amount to much.

It also shows how MS effort was either badly thought out from the start, or at least failed -- and all those cross-platform touch-first changes of Windows UI where later toned down.

Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by zapzupnz on Friday May 10, 2019 @08:38AM (#19877128)
Sure it is. We must never forget that one of Microsoft's biggest selling points for UWP, and by extension the Microsoft Store, was to port apps to a platform that was, frankly, dead on arrival, at a time when the vast majority of Windows users were using mouses and keyboards.
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by guardian5x on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:10AM (#19876010)
XBox
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by pjc50 on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:45AM (#19876144)
Windows CE?
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by saagarjha on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:31AM (#19876095)
WWDC2018 had a slide in it addressing this very question, FWIW. It's up to you whether you choose to believe the response Apple gave.
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by manuelmagic on Friday May 10, 2019 @06:27AM (#19876534)
What was the response from Apple?
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by Austin_Conlon on Friday May 10, 2019 @07:05AM (#19876687)
Here's the exact moment of the keynote: https://youtu.be/UThGcWBIMpU?t=7470.
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by ajconway on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:29AM (#19876087)
I don’t think convergence is their current goal. UIKit is simply a more “modern” API for writing GUI apps. AppKit hasn’t been evolving much in the past decade.
Re:What to Expect from Marzipan by pavlov on Friday May 10, 2019 @04:43AM (#19876135)
That’s just not true. AppKit has evolved a lot since 10.6. Big changes in Lion and lots of incremental improvement since.

UIKit may be more modern in some specific aspects, but it’s also far more limited. Here’s a good post highlighting some of the most obvious differences: https://pilky.me/appreciating-appkit-part-1/