News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by phreack on Friday May 03, 2019 @02:19AM (#19816009)
Tumblr is an absolute goldmine of pure original content unavailable anywhere else.

A savvy enterprise that acquired it should re-allow adult content with however many filters they like to make amends with the community and devote a while to redo UX and quality of life. Content creators will absolutely come back, as no proper competitor ever rose in the current vacuum yet. After that it could turn into a unicorn in less than a year.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by cageface on Friday May 03, 2019 @03:04AM (#19816196)
I think we're going to see companies start pulling back from hosting user generated content in general. Policing it is a massive headache and a guarantee of getting pulled into all the current political dogfighting.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by ralusek on Friday May 03, 2019 @06:07AM (#19816992)
Or we could go back to the concept of content-agnostic neutral platforms, the best of which have self-moderation available to taste (e.g. subreddit subscriptions).

There seems to be a growing reluctance to accept that a person or a group being allowed to exist on a platform does not in any way serve as an endorsement of that person or group. I believe that the copyright legislation in Europe, for example, has very little to do with copyright, and very much to do with holding platforms accountable for the content that their users produce. The net result is the platforms necessarily invoke nuance-less strategies for sanitizing the content according to a narrow band of what is acceptable.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by Ygg2 on Friday May 03, 2019 @07:05AM (#19817265)
> Or we could go back to the concept of content-agnostic neutral platforms

Europe's Article 13 and its companion will make sure that NEVER happens.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by adventured on Friday May 03, 2019 @11:37AM (#19819349)
> Europe's Article 13 and its companion will make sure that NEVER happens.

The EU audience merely has to be willing to tolerate the latency of being served content from outside of the EU.

The only answer that the EU has to that approach, is to institute a Chinese style blockade and limit access to the Internet (it would become something else, the EUnet, with restricted access to the Internet). The question is whether EU citizens will tolerate that next, required step. Without an EU wall, they can't stop the trivial dodging of their laws by setting up services outside of their jurisdiction and serving to EU users. The US market is profitable enough to trivially support serving to EU users without any regard for making money there (Facebook could operate profitably with 2.2 billion global monthly actives with only monetizing the US market; Google could serve its search engine to a global audience profitably by only monetizing the US).

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by kermitismyhero on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:17AM (#19817694)
The EU is so frustratingly inconsistent on internet-freedom matters. On the one hand there's a tendency towards very strong privacy protections through the GDPR and similar legislation/regulations. And on the other there's blatant publisher-protectionist insanity like Article 13. It's a mess.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by otvsh on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:56AM (#19817954)
How is that inconsistent? Both things are heavy-handed.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by majewsky on Friday May 03, 2019 @09:10AM (#19818057)
By that same logic,

> How is that inconsistent? Both things are a law.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by otvsh on Friday May 03, 2019 @09:29AM (#19818204)
Which supports my comment, because if it's a law it's heavy-handed. I was comparing it to having no laws.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by kermitismyhero on Friday May 03, 2019 @11:10AM (#19819097)
I find them inconsistent from an individual-liberty perspective. I see no contradiction between opposition to Article 13 and support for the GDPR.

On the one hand, Article 13 compromises the online publishing capability of anyone (either individuals or businesses) who lack the ability to hire both large legal departments and large developer teams who can implement content filters. It entrenches the power of the 800lb media gorillas and kneecaps everyone else. It also enables censorship systems by crippling the capability of individuals and small hosting businesses to publish material at will.

But on the other hand, the GDPR is a law with serious teeth that takes power back from those 800lb gorillas that rely on unethical bulk-surveillance business models. It empowers individuals to regain some privacy should they choose to exercise that power. Businesses with ethical user-fee business models have nothing to fear from the GDPR, because for them, the protection of customer data from advertisers isn't an undue hardship. It's a core feature of their service. And let's not forget that the GDPR actually has quite broad exceptions for news agencies. The GDPR can't be used as a censorship tool in the same way that Article 13 can.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by Chazprime on Friday May 03, 2019 @07:27AM (#19817383)
I think those days are sadly long past. As long as the idea pervades that opinions we don't agree with are "dangerous", I can't see platform providers not being held to task to remove undesirables.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by amanaplanacanal on Friday May 03, 2019 @12:02PM (#19819574)
It appears that the people who pay the bills (advertisers) don't want that sort of platform. And the people who do want that sort of platform are unwilling to pay the bills.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by abraae on Friday May 03, 2019 @03:48AM (#19816392)
"there's brass in muck" though. Someone - maybe not a FAANG but someone smaller and hungrier - will find a way to successfully and profitably steward UGC sites, just as Reddit seems to be able to.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by DC-3 on Friday May 03, 2019 @04:20AM (#19816536)
> profitably steward UGC sites, just as Reddit seems to be able to

I thought Reddit has never been profitable?

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by throwaway55554 on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:25AM (#19817759)
They better hurry before FAANG and Congress make it much more expensive to start up.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by ykevinator on Friday May 03, 2019 @07:19AM (#19817338)
I think this is right, plus its not that profitable ( Reddit, snap chat etc)
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by Creationer on Friday May 03, 2019 @04:53AM (#19816687)
If those companies are based in the US, EU, or China, sure.

The whole GDPR, Content Filtering thing seems like a massive opportunity for a savvy, unregulated South American, African or Asian company to take advantage of.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by cortesoft on Friday May 03, 2019 @10:54AM (#19818960)
Then you need yours ads to also come from those areas, and I am not sure the ad dollars are there, especially if they are being shown to people in western countries.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by asdff on Friday May 03, 2019 @02:59PM (#19821250)
Why can't a US company buy ad space on a South American website?
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by cortesoft on Friday May 03, 2019 @06:49PM (#19822961)
Because that American company would be held to American laws, and if the point of the South American company was to skirt American laws, that isn't going to work.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by AsyncAwait on Friday May 03, 2019 @06:40AM (#19817124)
> The whole GDPR, Content Filtering

Why lump privacy protections together with upload filters as if they're both bad. If you service doesn't abide by the GDPR, I'd try to avoid it. On the other hand, upload filters are a disaster and not at all comparable to GDPR, not in terms of what they do to the end-user, not the burden they place on service providers.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by mises on Friday May 03, 2019 @09:05AM (#19818020)
Because it's not for you to pick and choose which laws you wish to follow. If a firm starts in the third world, it also likely cannot handle the regulatory burden of gdpr.

For what it's worth, it would only have to be out side Europe. If a firm has no office in Europe, it would be difficult for Europe to enforce its laws. Extradition requires it be a crime in both countries.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by Nextgrid on Friday May 03, 2019 @03:25AM (#19816265)
Not a bad outcome if it encourages people to self-host.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by lostlogin on Friday May 03, 2019 @04:45AM (#19816660)
Self hosting as a service!
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by notyourday on Friday May 03, 2019 @05:57AM (#19816939)
The problem with adult content is that it is not monetizable via regular ads. This means that Tumblr is either:

1) a porn site with porn ads which is not a sexy business to be in -- at best it is a lifestyle business.

2) a site providing tools to small porn businesses ( i.e. creators of adult content ) for money which has a very limited growth and is a tough market

3) a site charging users for access to edgy content

None of this so far has been a multi-billion dollar entreprise.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by danaris on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:55AM (#19817951)
Most of Tumblr is not, and has never been, NSFW. The fact that the site permits such blogs to exist does not in any way mean that the vast majority of it could not easily support regular ads.

It shouldn't even be difficult for Tumblr to enforce a separation between the two—a hard requirement for any blog that hosts adult content to be marked as such, and blogs with adult content only get ads from advertisers who have explicitly indicated that they're OK with that.

Now, granted, it may still not be a multi-billion-dollar enterprise. I don't know much about the economics of ad impressions. But that doesn't mean it can't be profitable.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by notyourday on Friday May 03, 2019 @09:48AM (#19818401)
> Most of Tumblr is not, and has never been, NSFW. The fact that the site permits such blogs to exist does not in any way mean that the vast majority of it could not easily support regular ads.

Most of the cost and page views on Tumblr came from NSFW. Everything else was a really long tail. It costs more money to monetize the long tail than the long tail can be monetized for.

> It shouldn't even be difficult for Tumblr to enforce a separation between the two—a hard requirement for any blog that hosts adult content to be marked as such, and blogs with adult content only get ads from advertisers who have explicitly indicated that they're OK with that

Advertisers for non-explicit content to not want to be associated with non-clean content whatever that not clean content may be. Tucker Carlson is much cleaner than "daddybeatshisproperty" and there are successful campaigns to pull P&G and its likes ads from Fox News. Now imagine "Dirty Mouth, clean it up!" ad next to ... well... something something in your mouth. The screen caps of that would be on youtube in half and hour and on all TV channels by the evening news. There's no way Mars, Inc would be Ok with that hit and they are rather edgy in their commercials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxmkiy9txBE

> Now, granted, it may still not be a multi-billion-dollar enterprise. I don't know much about the economics of ad impressions. But that doesn't mean it can't be profitable.

Right. So it at most a lifestyle business, not a multi hundred million dollar operation.

P.S. Reality does not care about downvotes. Tumblr lost money since its inception because it cannot get enough ad money to coverts its costs. And it cannot get enough ad money because of its content, not because there's no ad money.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by danaris on Friday May 03, 2019 @03:14PM (#19821370)
> Most of the cost and page views on Tumblr came from NSFW.

Do you have sources for that? Because from what I know, I think that's unlikely.

Based on what's happened since December, it seems like the number is closer to 30%. Now, that's still quite significant, but it's a long way from "most".

> The screen caps of that would be on youtube in half and hour and on all TV channels by the evening news.

That also seems quite unlikely. It might make it to YouTube, but it's unlikely that it would make much of a stir; certainly not enough to get on the evening news.

> So it at most a lifestyle business, not a multi hundred million dollar operation.

Does that mean that it doesn't deserve to exist?

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by notyourday on Friday May 03, 2019 @07:07PM (#19823060)
> Do you have sources for that? Because from what I know, I think that's unlikely.

Hired a couple of their SREs

> Based on what's happened since December, it seems like the number is closer to 30%. Now, that's still quite significant, but it's a long way from "most".

Tumblr has a boatload of porn. They barely killed half of it if based on random samples some of their competitors did before and after the great purge. The biggest change is that they started to kill ability to re-share old porn content but re-uploaded copies of the same old porn still show up.

> That also seems quite unlikely. It might make it to YouTube, but it's unlikely that it would make much of a stir; certainly not enough to get on the evening news.

We see the outrage playing out daily in the news. If Pepsi ends up in a hot water with the ad featuring Kandall giving a soda to a cop one does not need to be a genius to predict what happens in a case of Orbits ad next to a porn video.

> Does that mean that it doesn't deserve to exist?

It deserving to exist is irrelevant. Someone needs to fund it or make enough money to make it worth to them.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by huffmsa on Friday May 03, 2019 @07:13AM (#19817299)
They could take a look at what Nishimura did by splitting 4chan into a work and advertiser safe 4channel.org and the unsafe 4chan.org domains.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by notyourday on Friday May 03, 2019 @07:25AM (#19817371)
The moment it is split into the "safe" and "unsafe" it becomes immediately obvious that "unsafe" loses gobs of money while "safe" makes a tiny bit of money, which is exactly why the non-safe content gets purged ( in case of Tumblr, badly -- there's still lots of porn on it ).
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by huffmsa on Friday May 03, 2019 @07:41AM (#19817472)
But purging the content meant 30% of their users left literally overnight.

Those users probably consume some safe content.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by RenRav on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:45AM (#19817885)
What's interesting is that the content doesn't seem purged. All the accounts with porn just have their blogs hidden, but like 90% of the images and such are still hosted and can be directly accessed. Someone could easily reverse this and slap on monetization features, because even today there doesn't seem to be any decent tumblr replacement, not reddit, not twitter. That seems unlikely to happen though.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by Izkata on Friday May 03, 2019 @05:25PM (#19822436)
That is in fact exactly what happened. The implementation was rushed and/or inept to the point it's near-impossible for me to believe this was something they were already working on:

* Tumblrs that weren't marked adult got marked as such by their new algorithm. This included the text-only official announcement post itself.

* The actual block was done by turning on safe mode for all users, and removing the toggle from the settings page. For a short time, some people were supposedly able to turn in back off by adding that setting back to the POST manually.

* The setting doesn't affect your dashboard, so you can still see new posts by those you follow, even though there's no way to browse to their page directly.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by notyourday on Friday May 03, 2019 @09:53AM (#19818429)
That gets us back to Tumblr being a money losing enterprise. The question is what is a working strategy to monetize a massive user content driven platform where advertisers view on that content is somewhere between the gigantic landfill on fire and a nuclear waste.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by RenRav on Saturday May 04, 2019 @05:24PM (#19829486)
Seems Pornhub is one solution after all, it sure solves the advertising problem... they just put up their own advertisements.

> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/05/pornh...

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by danaris on Friday May 03, 2019 @03:22PM (#19821426)
As I understand it (as a light Tumblr user, in areas adjacent to but almost entirely outside of the NSFW sections), a significant number of the porn blogs have, in fact, been deleted, as well as a significant number of blogs or posts on blogs that were flagged as porn by their egregiously terrible porn-finding algorithm, but were in fact nothing of the kind.

However, the porn spambots still keep popping up periodically, and there are still loads of Nazi/alt-right blogs that Tumblr doesn't seem to have any intention of doing anything about.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by notyourday on Friday May 03, 2019 @07:46AM (#19817497)
It is numbers: if the cost of servicing those users in a non-safe content is X, they are worth it only if the revenue received from them in a non-safe content Y is either ~X or > X.

Unprofitable eyeballs leaving decreases the losses, making a business more valuable.

Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by ryan_j_naughton on Friday May 03, 2019 @08:36AM (#19817822)
Not if there is an ecosystem effect, and you need those people to ensure that all the safe content has enough producers, consumers, commenters, etc to make it a living, community and ecosystem.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by notyourday on Friday May 03, 2019 @09:50AM (#19818410)
Those effects did not work for Tumblr. Tumblr always lost money. That's exactly how it ended up in this situation.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by terryschiavo22 on Friday May 03, 2019 @10:19AM (#19818652)
4chan doesn't exist to make a profit though. It only needs to get enough money to keep the lights on.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by notyourday on Friday May 03, 2019 @10:43AM (#19818872)
Which makes it not a business and not valueable unless someone wants to fund it.
Re:Verizon reportedly seeking to sell Tumblr by dyeje on Friday May 03, 2019 @09:33AM (#19818231)
The problem with Tumblr has always been monetization. Unless you figure that out I don't see how it's going to e a unicorn.