If I think "it's one of those people from the other side of the tracks" it won't feel like a person with whom I could have a close connection. I might not care as much.
Not saying it's a good thing, though.
I'd say you would care too much! (abstract/general 'you', not @CalRobert). The problem any sort of reform faces is antipathy, not apathy.
Often, you'll hear people say something like, "Norway did X and it works, so we should do X in the U.S." These are typically fairly naive claims. Regardless of the normative dimension of the claim (whether X is worth doing in the U.S. in the first place), there is a non-trivial amount of complexity that is swept under the rug. For instance, NYC has twice the population of Norway. The U.S. really is significantly more demographically diverse than Norway (or, if this claim isn't good, then we can just say they are equally diverse, but at the scale of the U.S. this diversity increases complexity a non-trivial amount). The U.S. has a more fragmented legal system. Etc. Etc. Etc.
If a Martian were asked which nation would be easier to implement new policies in, maintain those policies, and have them bring about the desired end, which do you think they'd choose? I wager they would immediately choose Norway.
We also have a much more diverse population than Norway, so if anything, US should be looking towards us for inspiration.
Or you could say that it's an appeal to numerous studies (psychological and sociological), most of human history, and prudence...
Instead of using race as the example, let's use language.
You have three people. Two have spoken English their entire lives. The third grew up speaking French and learned English later.
They need to do something really hard to get right, something easy to mess up. Mistakes come at a high cost.
When the two English speakers work together, things work. They go smoothly. They can manage to overcome challenges and meet goals.
When they try to work with the French speaker, you see a lot more problems. It's frustrating. He does things they didn't expect. It is easy to feel like he's intentionally screwing things up.
Homogeneous demographic groups have an easier time all being on the same page. They spend less time and effort trying to bridge differences in experience, attitude, etc.
You get ugly terms like Mansplaining and Whitesplaining because "privileged" people -- people for whom life has tended to work -- often feel that their life works because they were taught the right information and if people who are having a hard time just had the same info, their life would also work. And then the person getting the info gets mad because they feel like they are being treated like they are stupid and not trying rather than like their life actually works differently because they are different and the world treats them differently.
It's all white people.
Sorry to be so glib, but I don't think I've ever seen "homogenous" used by someone who wasn't engaged in at least borderline racist dog whistling. The entire idea of it is based on the notion that people cannot successfully mix together, and therefore should not try.
Frontline did a report on people on parole. It’s a punishing system, even when you’re out of the systems you’re usually one drink away from being thrown back in
It’s a very good example of something where all the individual players are trying, but so much of how the system works makes results be harsh and cruel
-former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman
https://www-m.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-ri...
As user GatorD42 pointed out when this was brought up before:
>...Baum claims Ehrlichman said that to him in 1994 while he was researching for a book he published in 1996 about the drug war. He didn't include the quote in that book, but instead published it in 2012 and again in 2016, after Ehrlichman had died (in 1999).
If the quote was said by Ehrlichman, it doesn't actually describe the drug polices of the Nixon administration. While Nixon is remembered for "war on drugs", the actual substance of his policies seem to be different than what people think it was:
>...I have been fortunate over the years to discuss the distorted memory of Nixon's drug policies with almost all of his key advisors as well as with historians. Their consensus is that because he was dramatically expanding the U.S. treatment system (by 350% in just 18 months!) and cutting criminal penalties, he had to reassure his right wing that he hadn’t gone soft. So he laid on some of the toughest anti-drug rhetoric in history, including making a White House speech declaring a “war on drugs” and calling drugs “public enemy number one”. It worked so well as cover that many people remember that “tough” press event and forget that what Nixon did at it was introduce not a general or a cop or a preacher to be his drug policy chief but…a medical doctor (Jerry Jaffe, a sweet, bookish man who had longish hair and sideburns and often wore the Mickey Mouse tie his kids had given him).
http://www.samefacts.com/2011/06/drug-policy/who-started-the...
High recidivism (shows it's at least a failure), focus on punishment (mandatory minimums, etc...) for things like drug possession, cruel bail system, "tough on crime" judges, legalized prison slavery, heavy use of solitary confinement, outright criminal levels of cruelty, normalized prison rape, stigmatization of felons, etc...
They had prisoners fight california wildfires for slave wages. They justified it as it was voluntary and they were learning a skill.
Felons can't become firefighters in california.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: actually, you've been breaking the site guidelines so badly and so consistently that I've banned this account until we get some indication that you sincerely want to use HN as intended.
(I am black)
And even if some revolutionary discovery was made to help treat stunted IQs, prisons are probably not the place one would want to start. The IQ gap holds between populations of all classes and socioeconomic condition. You open yourself to missing the true effectiveness of such a monumental discovery due to confounding biases within the prison population. The possibility, if not probability, of coercion upon experimental "treatment" towards prisoners is also probably something we ought probably prefer to avoid.
Said a different way, is IQ relevant to the discussion? Why do you keep bringing it up?
I still can't see where you've presented evidence that IQ measures have an impact on a prisoners ability to be rehabilitated. This is the crux of your entire argument.
Or you know, you could use a reliable source of information to counter their argument instead of using the same crap to try (and fail) to prove a point..
Also keep in mind that troglodytes like the racist in the room exist to waste the time of decent people. Doing actual research to beat on them means that they win.
Fight the welfare state and toss black moms into prison because they lied to send their kid to a better school (IIRC, 5 years. for lying about her address). Meanwhile rich white people are photoshopping their kids faces onto athletes.
Fund schools with property taxes. Oh look, those mcmansion filled suburbs have better schools.
Fight bussing (thanks Biden). Criticize the south for resisting integration while NY has the most segregated schools in the country.
Extol the virtues of the great charter schools and lottery systems, while the rest of the kids are stuck in shit.
Different actions can be criticized for different reasons. A quick google search shows that nobody is ignoring the segregation in NY schools [1]. In fact, how did you find out about it if it is being ignored?
[1] https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=segrega...
People don't commit violent crimes for weed. The crime is having weed. And things that are not weed are not being legalized state-by-state.
So I'm saying that it in many cases, the problem isn't so much that prison is a failure as a rehabilitation center and we should focus on rehabilitation elsewhere, it's that people are in prison for things they simply don't want to be rehabilitated for and have strong influences to continue doing. The culture is inherently resistant to being rehabilitated from things that it doesn't consider harmful.
To use an example that might be more neutral, what if copyright enforcement was more severe and we had half a million people in prison for watching unlicensed YouTube videos? We might analyze the failure of the prison system in rehabilitating people from watching the wrong streams and focus more on education so that people could identify properly licened content before they watched it. But unless the people actually considered this behavior harmful, it would be an impossible task, and we would see ever increasing numbers of people in prison for watching the wrong videos.
But we also have very high recidivism rates for stuff like "armed robbery", independent of social-issue crimes like marijuana possession. And society generally has an Opinion about armed robbery. (It's bad!)
Go to prison for weed. Get out. Realize how fucked things are now that you're a felon on parole.
In my view, these are the real dynamos of the 'criminal world', where predatory traits are baked into their behavior patterns at a lower level. There are compelling opportunities for more research here (https://modlab.yale.edu/news/can-psychopaths-be-cured) and isolating variables is a good way to help move things forward.
This is very true. As an example, recidivism in Sweden is around 40%[0], compared to around 68%[1] in the states.
[0] - https://www.bra.se/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/...
Anders Breivik got 21 years for killing 77 people. Are you worried about when he gets out in 2033?
Norwegian law opens for in essence indefinite terms for inmates deemed a lasting danger to society.
ABB was sentenced under this statute and may well be locked up for the rest of his days; he may, however, at regular intervals apply to a board for release. He must then convince this board that he is no longer a threat to society and good luck with that.
Focusing on what (to you, as an outsider) seems to be outlandish is honoring the breach rather than the observance.
And unlike, say, the United States--there's only been one of him. This country has folks trying for high scores on a very regular basis. (Remember Las Vegas? That was 18 months ago. 59 deaths.)
Perhaps it is worth looking at trends and impacts rather than media splashes.
He'll also be under close supervision.
In my native Norway, rehabilitation has been the focus to such an extent that foreign media come to do stories on the 'holiday camps' prison time is served in.
It somehow works, though. Recidivism is very low. Here's a few examples on how inmates do their time
-Education is encouraged - whether it is to a learn a trade or getting a degree (presumably lectures are mostly followed via teleconference).
-Counselling is available to help you deal with whatever issues landed you in prison in the first place.
-As you near the end of your sentence, restrictions are gradually lifted to ease the transition back into society - lower-security units, daytime leave to report to work, halfway houses where inmates can live a normal-ish life in the daytime but need to observe a curfew in evenings/nights.
-After you get out, you have regular one on ones with the social services, helping you find a place to stay, work, family counselling if required etc.
-Companies are offered part of your pay refunded by the state for a limited time if they hire you.
All in all, I guess it can be argued that our pendulum has swung too far towards rehabilitation - but if the point of prison is to reduce the long-term risk and cost of crime, we're doing reasonably well.