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Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by freediver on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @10:31AM (#19208577)
"Success in the movie industry relies on a studio’s ability to attract moviegoers—but that’s sometimes easier said than done"

No it isn't. Just make a good movie. Forrest Gump didn't need any machine learning.

The only reason someone might use this is when your strategy is "spray and pray", create crappy movies that insult everyone's intelligence and you need to figure out is it worth launching at all.

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by msla on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @10:51AM (#19208804)
> Forrest Gump didn't need any machine learning.

No, it just needed a massive demographic the studios could exploit the Hell out of by taking a semi-popular novel and Spielberging all over it.

You have a good point, but you used an imperfect film to demonstrate it. Forrest Gump was just about as cynical a film as you could imagine, and succeeded precisely as predicted. That kind of cynical filmmaking, explicitly targeted at demographics with earnings projections in place before casting begins, is precisely what this AI-driven concept will end up with at its worst.

A better example would be the works of the Coen brothers, or David Lynch: Even if you don't like them personally the fact remains they have an audience, and they most certainly weren't made to order based on market forecasts. They represent the auteur theory in action, being the products of distinctive creative minds who impressed their equally distinctive visions upon them.

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by StevePerkins on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @11:38AM (#19209282)
This is being a bit too "edgy" for me. Not to defend Forrest Gump as an all-time great or anything, but is there really something wrong or unsavory about its conception?

What you call "exploiting a demographic" is more like "having a target audience instead of trying to be all things to all people". Sure, Boomers are a huge generation. But they were entering their 50's when Forrest Gump came out... and studios usually aim at 18-34 year olds because that's who spends the most time and disposable income at the movies.

What you call "Spielberging" is probably just a combination of cinematography, soundtrack, and accessibility over hipster snob appeal. In other words, good mass-market filmmaking.

Maybe this particular movie isn't your cup of tea, but there's nothing negative or cynical about this. "Cynical" would be hijacking HN threads to bring up urban walkability, UBI, random potshots at Baby Boomers, or any of the other standard hot buttons that typically guarantee upvotes and validation.

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by ethbro on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @12:25PM (#19209747)
I believe the cynicism would be when a studio chooses demographic and marketability over art.

There is no "best" art (sorry, high art world), but there are absolutely choices you can make for marketing rather than artistic reasons.

I like Robert Zemeckis and Ron Howard films, but they're boring ideas, well-executed. And I have a sneaking suspicion that given their copious directorial output and uniformity of end product... some of those choices were made for monetary rather than creative reasons.

Nobody says "I want to make a mind-bending Dune film, get me Robert Zemeckis!"

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by StevePerkins on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @12:41PM (#19209923)
> "there are absolutely choices you can make for marketing rather than artistic reasons"

That is fair. I believe it's also the case that when evaluating art, it's easy to conflate those reasons with one's own POV and demographic biases.

In other words: Forrest Gump is cynical pandering to Baby Boomers... but [this-year's-Marvel-superhero-movie] is an artistic gem, and The Dark Knight or Black Panther got robbed at the Oscars, etc.

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by Retra on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @01:40PM (#19210668)
That's an odd way to characterize it, IMO. Like if someone wanted to argue that Zemeckis makes substandard movies because he wants to profit from it, I should be able to argue that the Leanardo DaVinci painted substandard art because he profited from it. 100 years from now, nobody will care if Zemeckis made money, because he'll be dead. The legacy is what remains. The art is what is left behind, and what is left behind is better preserved if more people like it. I would argue that the value of art is not a pure measure of quality, but more like the product of quality and outreach.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by porpoisely on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @10:21PM (#19214240)
I'd say it is unsavory in the same way today's movies are "manufactured" to extract the most value from american and chinese markets. Where decisions of film locations, dialogue, plot, etc are driven by marketing and political aspects of these two major markets. And the "art" comes after the market research.

"ars gratia artis" doesn't apply to Forrest Gump. It was manufactured out of marketing data. It was the 90s version of most recent nostalgia film "Ready Player One". I know it won a bunch of awards ( which I put no credence or value on ) but it is film saccharine. Forrest Gump is one of the forefathers of the current movie industry.

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by 20190220 on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @12:31PM (#19209813)
Just because a movie is created because of cynicism on the part of the production company does not mean that it is created because of cynicism on the part of the filmmaker, crew, or editors.

A filmmaker will flagrantly appeal to the cynicism of the producers in order to produce a film they believe in wholeheartedly. Forrest Gump is probably a great example of it.

Spielberg and Ron Howard definitely make middle-of-the-road appeal-to-everyone films.

But so did Shakespeare. Middlebrow and excellent are not mutually exclusive terms.

Oh, and Michael Bay is represented on the Wikipedia List of Film Auteurs page.[1]

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_film_auteurs

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by 1zee on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @11:10AM (#19209003)
>massive demographic the studios could exploit the Hell out of

who? readers of a novel?

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by msla on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @11:12AM (#19209026)
Baby Boomers! The film Forrest Gump was basically Baby Boomers: The Movie.

It was a Greatest Hits album of everything the stereotypical Boomer would consider great and memorable about their childhood and young adulthood.

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by js2 on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @11:24AM (#19209127)
My wife and I are 47 and love it. Our teenage kids enjoyed it when we watched it with them recently. My dad, a boomer, actually doesn’t care all that much for it. It happens to be a good story irrespective of when you were a child or young adult. Shrug.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by mrguyorama on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @12:16PM (#19209649)
Certainly doesn't hurt that Tom Hanks attracts all kinds
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by izacus on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @06:03PM (#19213001)
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here - there's nothing wrong with enjoying it, there's nothing wierd about younger people enjoying it and that still doesn't really change the fact that movie targets nostalgia of a certain demografic. Considering it's success, it does that very well.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by wolco on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @12:36PM (#19209872)
I saw it in my teens and loved it. It was a film that could appeal to all.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by cabaalis on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @12:48PM (#19210015)
Disturbing modern idea that everything has to appease only a certain group of people, others need not apply.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by msla on Thursday February 21, 2019 @11:44AM (#19218101)
What in the world are you talking about?
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by akhilcacharya on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @11:03AM (#19208942)
Gump was Zemeckis!
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by saiya-jin on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @11:16AM (#19209055)
those 2 have quite a similar approach to movies AFAIK
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by SketchySeaBeast on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @02:45PM (#19211301)
Spielburg produced a lot of his films, so that would make sense.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by yodon on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @10:44AM (#19208733)
As with most simple recipies "just make a good movie" is unfortunately neither sufficient nor always the best path. Word of mouth on movies is far more likely to have a negative impact on theater going decisions than positive impact (if your friend says it sucks, you are far more likely to switch from go to no go than you would be to switch from no go to go if the same friend said it was awesome). In practice, what this means is that because positive word of mouth is so minimally impactful studios need to focus on high marketing value films rather than high story value films, because high marketing value films cause potential audience members to see a trailer or an ad and say "I'll totally go see that!" Yes, negative word of mouth can and will reduce the number who actually go see it, but final viewership is higher if you start with a huge population saying "I'll totally see that" than if you start with a "meh" response to the initial ads and try to grow viewership through word of mouth about how awesome your film is. Given these observations, Hollywood has made the rationally and financially correct but unfortunate for audiences decision to focus on marketability over enjoyability. These economics are quite different for entertainment as a service providers like HBO and Netflix, with the obvious results in quality of output.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by smichel17 on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @12:54PM (#19210101)
The alternative is to build up a reputation, so when a new $studio film comes out, people are excited about it because $studio has a history of making good films. I think Pixar is/was a good example of this.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by NicoJuicy on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @05:07PM (#19212515)
Every studio that has focus on children is smart marketing.

Children > parents.

If you are a parent, don't you go to a child friendly restaurant that is reasonable good instead of one that is very good but not child-friendly.

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by TylerE on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @09:40PM (#19214080)
That only works if the films are still good though. Pixar has had a couple of bombs, The Good Dinosaur for one.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by dagw on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @10:47AM (#19208768)
No it isn't. Just make a good movie.

Lots of "good movies" (using any definition you want) fail to find an audience. And even more mediocre movies make huge buckets of money. If your goal is to make money then just blindly making "good movies" is probably not your best strategy.

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by TeMPOraL on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @11:10AM (#19209010)
> If your goal is to make money

That's one of the reasons why we have so many poor movies (the other reason is that making movies is hard). If your only consideration is making money, you'll produce whatever crap is cheapest to make that still makes reliable income. This is why e.g. consumer market is full of barely-working near-disposable products which existence is a pure waste of natural resources.

Seriously. There's no rule that says that the most profitable product is also the best for the user. In fact, it's almost always the opposite, and A/B-testing things to death leads to the former type of product.

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by anth_anm on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @02:14PM (#19210981)
This is pretty much entirely wrong.

Studios want what's "proven". It's why they will gladly feed in ML data to get shitty focus group type movies. They will then pour huge amounts of money in to try and get back even more.

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by taneq on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @07:09PM (#19213343)
Compare and contrast "good artists" where most really great artists died as paupers and found recognition long after their deaths.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by freediver on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @10:50AM (#19208796)
Depends on your horizon.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by yodon on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @10:56AM (#19208861)
> Depends on your horizon

Box office returns dominate the return for a film, set the license price for long term post-theatrical deals, and decay with a very fast exponential from the opening weekend take. It is extremely rare in modern times for a film to turn a poor opening weekend into a high long term return. The film market simply doesn't work that way however nice it would be if it did.

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by rjf72 on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @12:15PM (#19209640)
I read the comment you're responding to a bit differently.

I think most people can enjoy a really bad movie. Some t-and-a, explosions, a bit of CG - it's all good fun even all you can think about after the movie is how awful it was. But when really bad movies are all there is, they quickly lose their charm. Instead of being one off guilty pleasures, they become the movie industry. And that's about the point you stop watching movies at the theater.

I think this describes many people's transition away from movies. The point of this is that pumping out crap may be optimal in the short run. But in the longrun you end up with suboptimal returns, even when profit is your one and only motivation. Incidentally the same story is true and also being played out in various other industries.

Optimizing for next year's quarterlies is often not the same path to optimizing for earning the most money in the next decade.

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by ekianjo on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @11:47AM (#19209372)
> No it isn't. Just make a good movie

"Good" is not a single-variable problem, you know? Sometimes you have a good script, but you don't have the perfect cast. Sometimes you have decent actors and all but almost no marketing budget so nobody hears about your movie. There's so many things that can go wrong even with the best intentions when trying to make a good movie that "just make a good movie" sounds really naive.

If it were that simple, every "good" director would make great movies one after the other. I struggle to find more than a few who could pull that off (and even then, that's highly debatable), among the the tens of thousands of directors who have been active in the past 50 years.

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by selflesssieve on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @10:45AM (#19208748)
> Just make a good movie. That seems obvious- but good movie does not mean high grossing blockbuster. Shawshank Redemption made less than the Bee Movie.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by msla on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @10:54AM (#19208837)
Shawshank Redemption joins Office Space, Fight Club, and It's A Wonderful Life in the ranks of films saved by being shown on TV (whether via cable, DVD, or obsessive rebroadcasts over the holiday season before It's A Wonderful Life got snatched out of the public domain) after having bombed in theaters. They eventually found an audience even if the vagaries of the theater world kept them from making much in box office sensu stricto.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by tokyodude on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @11:37PM (#19214575)
There are movies I want to see multiple times and movies I truly loved but only needed to see once. I would assume block blusters fit the "multiple times" category which is why they make so much money, because people go more than once.

A drama like Shawshank Redemption (a favorite of mine) is not the type of movie I would have paid to go see multiple times in the theatre. Where as I saw The Matrix 6 times in the theatre back when it came out. Every friend who wanted to go see it I went with.

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by melkiaur on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @12:16PM (#19209647)
Maybe they needed to get a bigger marketing budget. Now, if only the majors could predict which movie need to be marketed how...
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by erichocean on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @10:47AM (#19208770)
Not all good movies can have good/effective trailers made for them, and not all word of mouth can overcome a bad trailer.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by rurban on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @06:41PM (#19213215)
That's unfortunately totally wrong. Good movies rarely get released, for decades.

I'm professional film critic and I have a good idea of the data, because I analyze the feedback from festivals and industry experts, who decide what gets released and what not. From the Top 10 typically only 3 get selected.

The selection criteria has nothing to do with the quality of the movie and rarely the quality of the trailer, even if it's more important.

Most important are the names. Hollywood divides the Actors and Directors into A+, A, B+, B and C. Without an A name you'll have a hard time to get financing and proper distribution.

2nd most important criteria is the marketing power. How much money will be spent on marketing. If the distributor is not sure he'll try smaller tactics, like smaller releases, with the risk to earn much less. Most important is only the first weekend. Really good movies without names rarely exist, which can drive marketing by its own. Only these movies can survive a bad opening and raise slowly over the weeks to get profitable.

Hollywood knows exactly the triggers beforehand, that's why they can get away with so many formulaic and simple movies still bring profitable. There's not much need for ML, just counting the numbers and trusting the experts is enough. In this case, if a trailer works for which group is certainly helpful though. With trailers you get better feedback than from test screenings, but not much better feedback than from experts.

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by eastbayjake on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @02:07PM (#19210930)
Forrest Gump had a $55 million production budget and a $71 million marketing/advertising budget:

https://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/25/movies/gump-a-huge-hit-st...

Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by Shorel on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @04:54PM (#19212392)
I think the examples to watch are the many good movies that were not profitable and a decade later are "cult movies".
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by ameister14 on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @12:18PM (#19209672)
Tell that to Dredd.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by golergka on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @12:01PM (#19209503)
Solid advice. On a similar note, if you want good software, you don't need fancy unit tests or type systems. Just don't write bugs.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by freediver on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @12:26PM (#19209761)
No, the correct analogy would be don't create crappy products and use ML department to predict how many people would buy it anyway.
Re:20th Century Fox Uses ML to Predict a Movie Audience by JetSpiegel on Wednesday February 20, 2019 @05:57PM (#19212958)
> don't create crappy products

Exactly, just don't write bugs.

The same way Michelangelo sculpted David, he just removed the marble not part of the statue.