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Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by hn_throwaway_99 on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @10:29AM (#19153755)
Hallelujah. It's not just enterprise apps, either. I've seen more than a few consumer app redesigns that just seemed to tack on the "clean", "minimalist", "whitespace" ethos, without really having a clue of an understanding of how users actually used the product.

I think this is a big factor in what killed slashdot. They did a big redesign years back that added a lot of whitespace but actually made it incredibly difficult to easily browse comment threads and see quality comments. Similarly, despite the old Reddit interface having a reputation as being "ugly", I hate the new interface and always browse on old.reddit.com, mainly because of the higher density of information that makes it easier for me to scan for posts I want to read.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by ioddly on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @08:58PM (#19159030)
> I hate the new interface and always browse on old.reddit.com, mainly because of the higher density of information that makes it easier for me to scan for posts I want to read.

I'm actually trying to "redesign" an app (I put design in quotes because I'm a dev and just trying to make a personal project look nice) and one of the struggles I have had is that high information density can look crappy at first but once you get used to it, is a better experience. So much nicer to have everything you care about in a single screen.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by rangibaby on Thursday February 14, 2019 @01:02AM (#19159932)
> high information density can look crappy at first but once you get used to it, is a better experience.

TL;DR

Your app should have the information density that it needs to be:

1. Useful and 2. Help the user avoid operating the app in a way that they don't intend to or is dangerous

Looking fancy is a secondary concern to good function. Typography has an important function because it is how you convey information to your user. Poorly laid out or written text can cause your user to get tired or use your app wrong.

Of course, making a useful interface is a difficult and long job. It is also thankless work, because if you do a good job your users will use your app without even noticing how well designed it is (good design is invisible!).

It's much easier to slap a pretty facade on your poorly designed app and call it done. People will be impressed by it, but struggle to use it.

I would recommend finding physical copies of Josef Mueller Brockmann's books, especially "Grid Systems in Graphic Design" and "The Graphic Artist and His Design Problems". They are both old (pre-DTP) but have great basic advice about how to design pages.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by Moru on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:53AM (#19159897)
Make an optional pro interface so noobs get lured in for the prettyness and when they know what they are doing, can swith?
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by adrianN on Thursday February 14, 2019 @02:07AM (#19160187)
Why have one interface if, for twice the money, you can have two?
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by goatlover on Thursday February 14, 2019 @10:17AM (#19162445)
Clever girl.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by tenaciousDaniel on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @10:39AM (#19153826)
God yes, the older reddit interface was so much better. I don't give a shit how pretty the UI is.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by SlightRespect on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:07AM (#19154058)
Craigslist is _the_ case study on how an ugly UI can survive over a long timeline. There are many techies and UI designers that are just disgusted at the UI of craigslist. For some, aesthetic is more important than usability. Luckily, for most, it's not.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by nafey on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:58AM (#19154473)
Not to forget amazon.com. I am actually in awe of their boldness in completely ignoring UI design trends.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by guelo on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @03:38PM (#19156731)
Amazon has purposefully broken their search and navigation, but probably in an anti-consumer metric-driven way instead of designer-driven.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by nerpderp82 on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:00PM (#19159511)
Ebay is the pinnacle of broken search and navigation! They should be winning awards, industry accolades, Webbies, the works!
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by maxxxxx on Thursday February 14, 2019 @08:56AM (#19161849)
I find eBay search more predictable than amazon. When I use amazon I feel that they show to me what they think I should get instead of what I want.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by nerpderp82 on Friday February 15, 2019 @04:43PM (#19175001)
Ebay removed substring search years ago, and this basically collapsed a whole bunch of industries that were using Ebay as their marketplace. Think hundreds of thousands of similar part numbers. This is why you see pages of part numbers blasted over the listing details.

Ebay's one job is to connect buyers and sellers and they fail miserably at that.

Not even a local minimum, a global minimum. Not a platform, a gated swamp.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by sonnyblarney on Thursday February 14, 2019 @08:36AM (#19161716)
Yes, both Amazon and EBay are bad examples.

They are old-school because they are lazy about it, not because something is already optimized.

Whenever I hear about how great a Amazon is as a company, I just do a single search and am dumbfounded.

Example:

If you type the name of a product - even when it is in their catalogue - it may not come up.

Search for 'mousr' on Amazon and you only see PC mouses.

The only way you can get to the mousr product is by typing the company name.

It's ridiculous.

Tip of the iceberg.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by darpa_escapee on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:16PM (#19163631)
I can sort by price on eBay. On Amazon, I have to jump through a bunch of hoops to finally be able to sort by price, and the results I get are far from exhaustive.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by nine_k on Thursday February 14, 2019 @07:27PM (#19167469)
I find eBay search pretty fine for my purposes. They could allow for more fine-gained structured descriptions, though.

Amazon search is in comparison much more... approximate.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by degenerate on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @01:12PM (#19155172)
I think that has a lot to do with Bezos saying "no" when it matters, like Jobs did at Apple.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by jmcqk6 on Thursday February 14, 2019 @02:38PM (#19165174)
Amazon's interface is pretty bad, though, especially in the video and kindle areas. I know I'm constantly frustrated using the site, and as far as I can tell, they don't appear to be very interested in reducing user's pain.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by trhway on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @02:23PM (#19155916)
they probably follow the money instead of trends.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by komali2 on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @08:46PM (#19158986)
Well, minus their shit video streaming site, I agree.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by tenaciousDaniel on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:32AM (#19154254)
Yes exactly. CL is probably my favorite website on the internet, for the sheer reason that they have virtually not changed at all since they first launched over 10 years ago. It's fairly incredible. I can't think of another website that has done that.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by godelski on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @07:25PM (#19158539)
> I can't think of another website that has done that.

https://news.ycombinator.com

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by aidenn0 on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:35AM (#19154299)
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by sevensor on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @12:04PM (#19154542)
This still exists?! It's still being updated?!?! So much more content than when I last checked it, which would have been 2004 or so. My faith in the internet is restored.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by tenaciousDaniel on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:42AM (#19154358)
holy shit
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by rpeden on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @02:26PM (#19155944)
I don't think the Berkshire Hathaway site has changed much:

http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by collinmanderson on Thursday February 14, 2019 @10:50AM (#19162765)
Amazing
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by combatentropy on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @04:41PM (#19157334)
> I can't think of another website that has done that.

Hmm, I'll give you a hint. You're looking at it.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by stingraycharles on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @12:49PM (#19154919)
CL is only ten years old? I always figured it was from the 90s — maybe a bias originating from the design.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by m741 on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @01:05PM (#19155077)
It's over 20 years old, it launched in 1996. Time flies.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by tenaciousDaniel on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @03:39PM (#19156751)
oh wow, I stand corrected. I always thought it was 10 years old because I discovered it around 2008. Sheesh.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by int_19h on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @09:20PM (#19159132)
Remember Windows XP?

Fun fact: we're further away from its first release (2001), than it was from Windows 1.0 (1985).

Remember Windows 7?

We're further away from its first release (2009), than it was from XP.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by Splines on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:31PM (#19159635)
Win7 certainly has some rough edges in retrospect, but I occasionally interact with old systems and so many things are so much snappier. I'm sure the modern frameworks in Win10 allow for "new experiences" but the plain old desktop experience was well served by Win7.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by vidarh on Thursday February 14, 2019 @06:32AM (#19161119)
And those of us who do remember Windows 1.0 (not using it, though, but I do remember the ads), are probably mostly closer to retirement age than to the start of our careers... I feel old now.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by maxxxxx on Thursday February 14, 2019 @08:58AM (#19161870)
Craigslist was a true innovation when it started.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by dfxm12 on Thursday February 14, 2019 @10:18AM (#19162453)
Craigslist is _the_ case study on how an ugly UI can survive over a long timeline.

I wouldn't call the CL UI ugly. It's certainly not beautiful, but I'm not sure how it could be described as ugly. There's something in between, right?

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by nine_k on Thursday February 14, 2019 @07:29PM (#19167491)
It's not aesthetically polished, but it's well though-out. So it works.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by dalyons on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:44AM (#19154370)
I think craigslist survives _despite_ its ugly UI just because of market lock-in/inertia. the ui is awful from a utility/ux, pov - it’s limited and hard to shop/browse with.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by papa_bear on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @07:37PM (#19158616)
Definitely - there used to be a bunch of sites that scraped craigslist and put their listings into more browse-able formats (e.g. Padmapper), but once they got too popular, CL started sending C&Ds and filing lawsuits.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by guitarbill on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @12:00PM (#19154501)
Amazon's website comes to mind, also
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by richjdsmith on Thursday February 14, 2019 @05:55AM (#19160986)
Wikipedia would make this list as well.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by dylan604 on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:19PM (#19159582)
apod.nasa.gov is the classic example for me
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by dleslie on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:26PM (#19159605)
The Drudge Report is another one.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by thirdsun on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:12AM (#19154108)
That’s the strange thing about reddit’s new design: It not only lacks functionality and performance, but also white space and clean aesthetics. It feels dated already.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by mzybert on Thursday February 14, 2019 @07:39AM (#19161420)
It's also slow, unresponsive and breaks all the time. The dark mode toggles back to bright mode randomly, posts sometimes don't render... It takes multiple seconds to render the comments in a thread. It's a mess.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by opportune on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @06:31PM (#19158216)
it was designed to make it easier to integrate ads
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by pantalaimon on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @12:02PM (#19154519)
The thing is that the new interface can take seconds to load whereas the old one was instant.

How is this an improvement?

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by criddell on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @12:29PM (#19154744)
It's better for them, not necessarily for you.

Reddit wants lots of growth (they are taking new money now I think) and that means lots of new users that don't know the old UI. The new one is designed with those users in mind, not ones that know the site inside and out already.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by crowbahr on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @02:50PM (#19156253)
It's sanding down a barrier to entry that was already fairly low, in my opinion. They haven't really made it much lower either.

Integrating RES into the main site would've been most of what they needed to get going...

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by leetcrew on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @10:06PM (#19159310)
imo the killer feature of RES is that it makes it extremely easy to manage arbitrarily many sockpuppet accounts. there are other nice features of course, but the ease of managing multiple accounts always stood out as one of the biggest perks to me.

in the current political climate, it's not hard to see why reddit might be cautious about implementing such features. of course, the real reason might just be that most reddit users don't even have one account to manage.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by criddell on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @03:05PM (#19156420)
They aren't going to care about what anybody on HN has to say about it because we aren't the audience they are after.

They need hundreds of millions of new users and those have to come from Facebook and probably on mobile.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by shakna on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @10:08PM (#19159314)
> and probably on mobile.

The site isn't mobile-friendly though, is it?

It's slow, bloated, and has repeated interstitials demanding you get their app if you deign to use mobile.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by pantalaimon on Thursday February 14, 2019 @03:34PM (#19165718)
There is an old mobile interface which is very quick and also easy to use.

https://i.reddit.com/

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by fiala__ on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:12AM (#19154106)
I tried the new interface, and even after a couple of minutes I still couldn't find where my saved posts were. Went straight back to `old.`
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by yoodenvranx on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @03:46PM (#19156815)
The old mobile reddit site [0] is _amazing_! No whitespace, no padding!

[0] The one which you can still reach by adding '.compact' to any reddit url

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by paulddraper on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:54PM (#19159718)
> so much better

In particular, faster.

I need to have a supercomputer to scroll past the first few pages.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by duxup on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @10:40AM (#19153833)
I use ud.reddit.com

Although anytime I mention this I fear they'll take it away...

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by stronglikedan on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @10:49AM (#19153905)
Just out of curiosity, why "ud"? It seems like any two letter subdomain works in the same way.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by ehsankia on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @01:08PM (#19155111)
I have no idea what ud is, I use old.reddit.com
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by duxup on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @10:52AM (#19153931)
Honestly, I think that was just one I bookmarked at some point and there it is in my history ;)
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by lessclue on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:04AM (#19154023)
It's actually old.reddit.com but they probably have some sort of a wildcard rule.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by folkrav on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @12:00PM (#19154498)
This is probably it : any two letter combination seems to work.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by Nullabillity on Thursday February 14, 2019 @11:59AM (#19163428)
It was (originally) for localization: ja.reddit.com would (for example) give you a Japanese interface. Eventually they realized what a horrible idea l10n is for a community-oriented site, and dropped the translations, but kept the `lang` that it would apply attributes. Eventually subreddit moderators figured out that you could use this to provide multiple variants of the per-subreddit CSS, such as dark modes, custom filters, and other silliness[0].

[0]: For example, see /r/CrappyDesign with (https://old.reddit.com/r/CrappyDesign/) and without (https://of.reddit.com/r/CrappyDesign) Comic Sans.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by godelski on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @07:29PM (#19158571)
Testing it out I found something interesting. You can put in subreddit.reddit.com and it redirects to reddit.com/r/subreddit. But any 2 char prefix works sends to old.reddit.com (a.reddit.com -> reddit.com/r/a)

e.g. hackernews.reddit.com -> reddit.com/r/hackernews

Why does this subreddit exist?

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by thaumasiotes on Thursday February 14, 2019 @03:43AM (#19160512)
> hackernews.reddit.com -> reddit.com/r/hackernews

> Why does this subreddit exist?

Considering the prevalence of the rebuke "HN is not reddit" on HN, probably for people who want to talk in a more reddit-like style.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by duxup on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:14AM (#19154121)
Thanks!
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by delecti on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @02:43PM (#19156164)
Other than "np", as in "np.reddit.com", which is used for "no-participation mode", I think the other two-letter sub-domains are used for language codes. I think at one point in reddit's history doing things like de.reddit.com could give a german site, and so on. I'm not sure what "ud" would refer to, but I assume it's similar.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by Avery3R on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @09:53PM (#19159258)
np is implemented as a language code. Subreddits have to change their stylesheets for that language for it to work.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by pvorb on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @06:57PM (#19158371)
Maybe "undefined"/"undetermined"?
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by lelf on Thursday February 14, 2019 @10:24AM (#19162514)
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by thefifthsetpin on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @05:41PM (#19157845)
Given how aggressively reddit push their terrible no good very bad interface, I figure there has to be some advantage to them to my using it? I don't know what that could be, maybe users struggling to use the new interface looks like engagement to ads?
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by osrec on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:10AM (#19159766)
The new UI isn't all that pretty either...
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by Shivetya on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @01:41PM (#19155481)
I have seen it in ill fated attempts to replace POS systems that were old green screen types to warehousing stocking tools using the same all with new pretty GUI or web page interfaces. Looking slick is great if customer facing but down in the trenches its all about familiarity, speed, and stability.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by anitil on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @05:24PM (#19157721)
One pet peeve of mine is that these old systems are often trivially navigable with a (often custom) keyboard, then replaced with something that needs a mouse.

So 'tap, tap, tap, tap, enter' becomes 'tap, <locate mouse> click, tap, tap <locate mouse>, click'.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by choward on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @03:23PM (#19156585)
The new Reddit interface wasn't designed for users. It was designed for the customers (advertisers).
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by Mindwipe on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:22AM (#19154184)
Also worth noting - consumer app or website designs that cram negative space everywhere are almost always slow as shit to use compared to their older "ugly" replacements. The way new Reddit renders content is an excellent case in point. An older example is the Guardian website - it's design about four or five years ago was despised by users (which was ignored) because it was slow and made using the site slower.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by c3534l on Thursday February 14, 2019 @05:51AM (#19160969)
Reddit also fails to load aporoximately 20% of the time, too. I figured it was growing pains, but they've not changed a thing. They designed it, they're done, and they're really not interested in what the users think.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by renjimen on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @10:54AM (#19153944)
Spotify.

These days it's so hard to organise or browse your own music collection.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by mo1ok on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @01:52PM (#19155597)
Oh man, glad I'm not the only one I noticed this. It used to take ~2 seconds to find my favorite playlist and play it. Now it takes upwards of 10-20 seconds.

On the dedicated "select a playlist" page with the squares, it even freaking re-organizes the squares every time you view it! Imagine if your desktop icons re-organized themselves in some arbitrary way every time you needed to open a program, and you get the utter destruction of muscle memory that can make up for the gaps in efficient design.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by rurp on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @03:27PM (#19156625)
Netflix is the king of this awfulness for me. Every time I use it the homepage is different. Different lists show up, disappear, change position, etc; even my list of saved shows that I reference all of the time suffers from this. Sticking with literally any layout I've seen on there would be better than the randomness that I have to navigate through each time.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by renjimen on Thursday February 14, 2019 @10:44AM (#19162704)
Just give me the damn list of everything in your database and let me search and sort using the metadata. Why do they need to throw algorithms at everything?
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by folkrav on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @12:09PM (#19154582)
I keep hearing this but I find Google Play Music to be way, way worse.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by dagoat on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @01:15PM (#19155203)
So because Google Play Music is worse at X, that means Spotify's X can't be bad?

Or are you saying the bar is: "as long as there's something worse"

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by alehul on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @01:38PM (#19155453)
> So because Google Play Music is worse at X, that means Spotify's X can't be bad?

It could be that, in most cases, we only think of the options as ones that we've been introduced to.

We're way too busy with daily life to really think in-depth about everything in hypothetical possibilities, such as "here's a way in which a music app that doesn't exist could do it better." Instead, (unless we're very passionate about music), we tend to only think about the options that have been presented to us.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by folkrav on Friday February 15, 2019 @10:37AM (#19171704)
You're extrapolating here. Maybe I was not clear enough. I've never found Spotify's interface to be that bad, but have the same sentiment you hold for Spotify towards Google Play Music.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by int_19h on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @09:22PM (#19159146)
I haven't seen a web music player / library manager with good UX for a very long time.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by Aeolun on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:56PM (#19159723)
Need a spotify for WinAmp plugin
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by renjimen on Thursday February 14, 2019 @10:37AM (#19162637)
I long for the days of foobar2000!
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by Reelin on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @05:16PM (#19157653)
I think old Reddit, HN, and Craigslist are good examples of what I've seen referred to as Brutalist Web Design (https://brutalist-web.design/).
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by sodosopa on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @11:17AM (#19154142)
Also another great example about why user and accessibility testing are very very important. It was downright ignored and when pressed the Admins admitted it. Leave your beliefs at the door and fucking watch how the user interacts with your site, then ask them why they make those choices. Buy them a beer or whatever gets them to talk.
Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by turok on Friday February 15, 2019 @06:31AM (#19170041)
I use "old.reddit.com" exclusively too, information density is king.

Material design and minimalism probably have a lot of strong theory behind them, but the cargo culting around them often leads to worse UX. I think a lot of companies reach the "dedicated UX team/person" stage before the "careful A B testing of user flow" stage.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by nprateem on Thursday February 14, 2019 @02:15AM (#19160214)
> I think this is a big factor in what killed slashdot

For me it was the pedantic, toxic community. HN is a breath of fresh air by comparison.

Re:Whitespace killed an enterprise app by lvs on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @10:20PM (#19159352)
Obligatory anger for the Gmail and Calendar minimalist redesigns. This is not minimalism really. It's whitespace maximalism.