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Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by kache_ on Friday February 01, 2019 @10:00AM (#19054579)
They constantly berate you to deactivate no tracking preferences on google maps. When you're aware of this fact you start seeing it everywhere, not just on google. For example, on Pinterest they will berate you to sign up using highlighted buttons on land, and the x button is out of the way on the top right corner.

This end result is due to product managers/devs looking at conversion rates and optimizing for whatever their metric of success is, which in this case is creating accounts and users being more "engaged" with the platform. 3 or 4 rounds of A/B testing and you get the most efficient (read: manipulative) method of getting users "engaged". There may be no intention of manipulation but using empirical evidence to achieve your metric of success will tend to make your product manipulative.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by beezischillin on Friday February 01, 2019 @11:37AM (#19055605)
Same goes for trying to turn on Voice Match (and the voice activated OK, Google), a feature that's supposed to take a snapshot of your voice and activate the assistant, like "Hey, Siri!". They will force you to activate: 1. web/activity history, 2. saving all your voice requests to the Google and they push you to activate Location History.

While Voice Match learning the sound of your voice sounds like a completely local task, they will force you to keep a history of all your voice commands, searches and activity. Voice activation and match won't even work without that on. Even tho the assistant works just fine if you leave those off.

Not to mention all the rest of these that happen, they even push for these during your first phone activation.

I got my first Android phone this year after taking a very long break from Google phones in 2014, due to getting fed up with how much of a mess Android still was around version 5 and Google's unwillingness to fix the issues so I ended up switching to iOS for years. Now I decided to switch my second phone to an Android purely out of curiosity to see what's been happening to the platform and all these creepy-ass prompts in version 9 don't instil much confidence.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by jayd16 on Friday February 01, 2019 @11:54AM (#19055801)
>While Voice Match learning the sound of your voice sounds like a completely local task

But voice rec is not local. The reason it asks to store your voice is because they need to send it to their backend for recognition.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by reaperducer on Friday February 01, 2019 @01:56PM (#19057240)
But voice rec is not local

Voice rec was local until about ten years ago. You could even buy software dictation products that installed from CDROM and didn't need a network connection.

I shouldn't need a network connection to do anything voice on my own device. It should only reach out to the network for things it doesn't have local knowledge of.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by TeMPOraL on Friday February 01, 2019 @04:25PM (#19058802)
Can confirm. Microsoft Speech API of ~2007 with little training worked very well for me, even across the room on a crappy microphone I hand-soldered to a 2m cable. If that worked fully off-line without a big performance penalty on mid-end 2007 hardware, it surely can work now.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by jayd16 on Friday February 01, 2019 @07:53PM (#19060214)
If its that easy you should make an app because there's certainly a market for it. The reality is online connected services are far far better.

There's a reason voice rec has only now finally stuck.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by ben_w on Friday February 01, 2019 @08:14PM (#19060305)
On my iPhone, the voice keyboard works pretty well in airplane mode. Not quite as well as when it has signal, but the difference is small… with the sole exception that it recognises everything as if it is English in Airplane mode, and only uses the language of the keyboard (if different) when I have signal.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by tinus_hn on Friday February 01, 2019 @09:17PM (#19060588)
By default, iOS dictation is also online.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by Animats on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:08PM (#19059222)
Yes. Is there a voice dialer for Android any more that does the voice recognition locally? There's nothing in the F-Droid store.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by darkpuma on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:02PM (#19059168)
Furthermore many smartphones can do voice dictation while in airplane mode.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by beezischillin on Friday February 01, 2019 @12:30PM (#19056212)
They don't need to explicitly save and store a history of every voice command to do voice recognition.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by DennisAleynikov on Friday February 01, 2019 @12:35PM (#19056283)
there might be implementations that don't do this for instance Siri or Bixby but that doesn't mean Googles approach is wrong.

It can be unacceptable for your privacy and security threat model but for most it makes 0 difference wether the training continuously happens in the cloud or locally on the NPU inside your phone.

Saving all the clips as much as people love to fear monger it is literally the strategy that objectively leads to the highest quality implementation on the market. Googles Assistant by far understands language most naturally and we owe that to all the free vocal training data google diligently uses.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by quickben on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:18PM (#19059301)
"but for most it makes 0 difference wether the training continuously happens in the cloud or locally on the NPU inside your phone."

Sadly, nobody will ever know if this is true as the choice doesn't exist.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by DennisAleynikov on Saturday February 02, 2019 @03:41AM (#19061922)
the choice does exist, Apple iPhone does everything privacy first, Android does things cost savings first (aka the cloud)

Most people seem to like the Google Assistant for more natural interactions and only tolerate siri for her limited uses she can do.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by contravariant on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:29PM (#19059390)
At this point I'm convinced they're deliberately making their captcha's impossible, to annoy me for taking anti-tracking measures.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by castis on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:34PM (#19059435)
On the plus side I've become 400% better at identifying whether or not objects are traffic lights and/or fire hydrants.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by mrhappyunhappy on Saturday February 02, 2019 @08:05AM (#19062783)
The most annoying captchas are the ones that change after selecting them. What da faq do I look like - free labor?!?!
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by NeedMoreTea on Saturday February 02, 2019 @08:09AM (#19062797)
yes.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by ocdtrekkie on Friday February 01, 2019 @06:07PM (#19059667)
When I have the time (or have failed ten bloody CAPTCHA's in a row), I sometimes shoot out emails to whatever website or service I am trying to use, to advocate for the removal of reCAPTCHA. Unfortunately, as long as only a few people are complaining though, a lot of websites will continue to paste in Google code blocks willy-nilly.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by cjhopman on Saturday February 02, 2019 @03:01AM (#19061802)
Right. As long as the people sending in complaints is a (much, much) smaller problem than recaptcha solves, they'll continue using it.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by throwawaymjabba on Friday February 01, 2019 @10:27PM (#19060828)
I came to the same conclusion 2 weeks ago. Nowadays, I have to solve the captcha 15-20 times before it lets me in. So I have started purposefully making wrong answers-road instead of car, sky instead of cross walks etc. If self driving cars end up crashing, I may have contributed to it.

Similar thing happened with YouTube too. They would always show me the same ad over and over. Even if I skip, I would get that ad multiple times in the same video. It was a political ad and it starts with one guy saying how he can't get treatment because of some medicare changes. I got so annoyed I wanted to punch the guy talking in the ad whenever I hear him.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by codedokode on Saturday February 02, 2019 @04:26AM (#19062048)
Aren't you doing anything weird with your cookies? For me recaptcha is almost always solvable from the first try. Regarding Youtube, usually reloading the page 2-3 times allows me to skip ads, but this trick doesn't work with all videos.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by mrighele on Saturday February 02, 2019 @05:31AM (#19062280)
Recaptcha use many kind of informations, among those is your IP address. If you are browsing through a VPN for example it may see that you are not browsing from a home IP but from a datacenter. In that case I think it assumes that you're a bot and makes it much harder to pass.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by throwawaymjabba on Saturday February 02, 2019 @06:15AM (#19062444)
I have my Firefox set to clear cookies on exit, with NoScript and PrivacyBadger addons. Also has ad/tracking blocking at router. Not sure if any of these can trigger the above behavior. One thing to point out is I was using the same setup in a different region before and never experienced this. Only started getting it after I moved to my current location and got a new ISP. I was never using VPN when I get this captcha issue.

Regarding YouTube, forgot to mention. I was getting that ad problem with Chromecast. I cast a lot of videos with the YouTube Android app. Whenever I get that ad, I would click on the skip ad button in app (which itself takes 2-3 tries sometimes). Then 2 or 3 minutes later, it would show the same ad. After I moved to my current location, I haven't experienced this behavior yet.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by contravariant on Saturday February 02, 2019 @08:18AM (#19062837)
I'm not doing anything weird with my cookies, I'm just refusing most of them, and preventing webpages from accessing the rest (unless I'm on the page that made those cookies), as well as hiding some of the personally identifying information my browser sends out.

Really it should be the default, and in fact most webpages have no issue respecting those settings, google's recaptcha is about the only thing that actively refuses to cooperate.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by pje on Friday February 01, 2019 @01:25PM (#19056870)
It's almost like we need regulations to counteract what are otherwise inevitable consequences of profit maximization!
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by scarface74 on Friday February 01, 2019 @04:55PM (#19059104)
No, we just need to stop buying from companies whose business model is anything other than you give them money and they give you stuff.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by tivert on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:06PM (#19059206)
> No, we just need to stop buying from companies whose business model is anything other than you give them money and they give you stuff.

So, stop using the internet, then?

Uncoordinated collective economic action like you call for doesn't really work, especially when it's against the shareholder-value maximizing interest of a corporation.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by scarface74 on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:34PM (#19059430)
I have an iPhone over an Android because Apple’s business model meets that criteria and nothing about the Android ecosystem does.

I have Roku TVs but they are set to automatically go to the HDMI input with my AppleTV. So I don’t have to use a remote that has hard coded buttons that go to the highest bidder and where half the home screen is an advertiser.

I buy business Windows PCs or laptops from the Microsoft store because they don’t look like a NASCAR car with all of the stickers and trialware.

I pay for ad free streaming services.

It’s not the “internet” that’s the problem. Websites have limited tracking ability if you use an adblocker. It’s your devices vendor that you have to worry about.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by pishpash on Saturday February 02, 2019 @05:19AM (#19062236)
Your ad free streaming services are still collecting your data.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by vanviegen on Friday February 01, 2019 @09:01PM (#19060524)
Aren't companies that try to sell you stuff using the same (manipulative) optimizations?
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by colordrops on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:38PM (#19059461)
> There may be no intention of manipulation

If random airmchair commentators can see the results as manipulative I guarantee that the program managers and devs can see it too.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by cpuguy83 on Friday February 01, 2019 @05:50PM (#19059541)
They don't see it as manipulative, which is the problem. They see it as "this is our product, we need a way to understand usage".
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by chocolatebunny on Friday February 01, 2019 @07:20PM (#19060072)
A lot of times you need to take a step back to see what you're doing. It's not always easy to do in a work environment.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by pishpash on Saturday February 02, 2019 @05:17AM (#19062230)
It's easy to see in a work environment. It's not easy to not dismiss it in favor of a promotion carrot.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by Tepix on Friday February 01, 2019 @10:09AM (#19054654)
The result of this A/B testing amounts to a dark patterns.

A/B testing a user choice by manipulating him/her like that seems like a no-no.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by TeMPOraL on Friday February 01, 2019 @04:27PM (#19058816)
A/B testing is the way Satan interacts with this world. Optimizing for business metrics eventually leads to dark patterns, and also provides a convenient excuse ("data says so!").
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by tripzilch on Friday February 08, 2019 @08:30AM (#19113916)
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by reaperducer on Friday February 01, 2019 @01:58PM (#19057256)
And sometimes A/B Testing is humorous.

Like when online publishers like Ars and TechCrunch A/B test headlines and pictures and I end up with a photo of singer Taylor Swift accompanying an article about Apple's iOS programming language Swift.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by reaperducer on Friday February 01, 2019 @01:23PM (#19056843)
This end result is due to product managers/devs looking at conversion rates and optimizing for whatever their metric of success is

Just wait until the product managers and devs are taken out of the loop and A/B testing becomes automated A/B...X/Y/Z testing through AI. Web interfaces will start to look like those crazy AI-generated YouTube videos. Anything to feed the shareholders.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by Bartweiss on Friday February 01, 2019 @02:42PM (#19057719)
My big question is whether that sort of deranged AI-output look will work when it arrives. It does for Youtube videos, but they're both aimed at children and searching for maximum intensity (via both character recognition and zaniness) to hold attention.

As is, I strongly suspect we're already over-testing on frontends.

First, because frequent change has a cost in user retention, and so does instability. I get A/B tested enough that I notice it happening, or notice that instructions I give for a program don't reflect what other people on the same device are seeing. And since I use multiple Gmail accounts, I've also had the experience of different accounts falling into different branches of a significant UI test - it was a horrible and aggravating experience.

Second, because isolated tests are a terrible way of judging aggregate effects. They're not necessarily run with an eye on "irrelevant" stats, and they're almost never run against a clean, single-design baseline. (Also, they're frequently run with grotesque statistical errors like stopping tests at significance...) The risk, then, is ending up with a hodge-podge of features that produced 3% improvement on some metric but did nothing for overall value. Newsletter signups designed to improve subscriptions, which destroyed retention. Buttons locked into arms races where they improve clickthrough by cannibalizing one another's traffic. Evolved-in-isolation pages that get good responses but decrease brand recognition, and so on.

None of that means aimless AI testing won't happen; the combination of buzzword appeal and hands-off profit is probably too good to pass up. But I expect it won't be as valuable as people expect because it feeds into all the mistakes we're making already.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by segfaultbuserr on Friday February 01, 2019 @07:16PM (#19060058)
80% of the time, for all online services, users get the choice to opt-out from the tracking, but trackers are on by default and users are encouraged to keep them on. This is what I call the fundamental principle of privacy settings: all privacy settings are based on the assumption that the vast majority of users will not understand, care, or make an effort to toggle all the knobs to opt-out from the tracking.

This is how online services meeting the regulatory requirements and creating a positive image of being privacy-respecting, "we are giving people a choice over their data", meanwhile still allowing the unhampered collection of personal data in practice.

Or the principle can be worded as, "If everyone opt-out from the tracking in their privacy settings, our business is finished". You can opt-out, but their business model remains the same, and you are simply an outlier.

As I see it, the most interesting case study is Do-No-Track. When DNT has just became a standard, the response was mostly positive. Then something dramatic happened, Microsoft enabled DNT in IE 10 by default! Then amusingly, it triggered a total backlash from the industry. If you see the principle, it's easy to explain that.

But Microsoft surely understand this point. Then why did it decide to do this? I highly suspect Microsoft's decision was a conspiracy to intentionally kill DNT, even if most people won't active it anyway, but they may believe that having a simple and universal privacy toggle is still being a potential threat to the business of the industry, so they decided to sabotage it by making it default-on, thus nobody will treat it seriously, and Microsoft can use the "we care about your privacy" as an excuse.

One can't fix the privacy issues with a privacy setting. One needs to have an alternative business model in the age of Surveillance Capitalism.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by ddebernardy on Friday February 01, 2019 @09:36PM (#19060654)
> 80% of the time, for all online services, users get the choice to opt-out from the tracking

That's purely theoretical. My browser is sending to not track headers, I've uBlock turned on, I nearly always reject tracking, yet I periodically delete thousands of cookies.

(In case there are bored Safari extension developers who read this and feel the same: an extension that allows to whitelist cookies and rejects everything else would be nice.)

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by rolleiflex on Saturday February 02, 2019 @12:44AM (#19061354)
Try the (very unhelpfully named) Cookie app. It’s a little sketchy looking and the website is poorly designed but seems to work for me. Get the non-app store one.

(No affiliation, I’m also evaluating it as we speak)

https://cookie5app.com

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by ddebernardy on Saturday February 02, 2019 @01:28PM (#19064680)
I ran into that one last year when I tried to locate an extension, and didn't rule out buying it, but I ruled out using it because it didn't seem open source. I get that devs need to get rewarded for their time and so forth. But in this day and age where popular extensions get purchased and repurposed as spyware, I'm not keen on installing anything closed source that messes around with my browser. And it's a red flag, for me, that an extension developer doing something that revolves around privacy isn't like minded. (Plus, as you said yourself, it looks sketchy for some reason.)
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by rolleiflex on Saturday February 02, 2019 @06:17PM (#19066501)
I do understand this mindset (and I'm running a privacy-oriented open source app: https://getaether.net, so speaking from personal experience), however, not everything can be open source, and not everything can be free. There is a place for proprietary software, and the more we deny that, the more creators of those open source software join Googles and Facebooks of the world and make them even more invincible.

The blanket 'not open source, so I won't use it' general sentiment (not implying you have this) I see on HN nowadays doesn't hurt Google, it hurts small software makers that don't have the luxury and money to make things 'free*' with five asterisks like FAANG, like you and me, and actually strengthens the larger companies.

The trust issue is a legit one, though. I have the same concerns on that one. However, if I could fully trust it, I would have no problem with it being not open source.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by tlavoie on Saturday February 02, 2019 @01:27AM (#19061497)
It's not for Safari, but Firefox has container tabs, where this data is isolated per-container.

With the Temporary Containers extension, basically everyone gets their own container by default, and all that gets deleted 15 minutes after the container's last tab is closed.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by jimmytucson on Friday February 01, 2019 @11:17AM (#19055370)
> 3 or 4 rounds of A/B testing and you get the most efficient (read: manipulative) method of getting users "engaged"

Now replace “engaged” with “to buy stuff” and that’s essentially online advertising. You’re being tricked by gurus of the mind to send your money to someone else. How this is legal represents a gap between traditional laws and modern times.

The sad truth for us software engineers is, a lot of the most exciting work is at least tangentially related to refining this trickery: big data, machine learning, etc. For example, implementing GDPR where I work has been a bizarre experience from a human standpoint. On the one hand, we all surely feel privately it’s a good thing for people, but we talk about it to each other as if it’s a burden and a setback for our business (which it is).

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by stlHusker on Friday February 01, 2019 @01:02PM (#19056599)
> You’re being tricked by gurus of the mind to send your money to someone else. How this is legal represents a gap between traditional laws and modern times.

Eh, this has existed for decades at a macro level in over-the-air television and radio. 'If you're not paying for the product, you are the product' is a quote that has been floating around since at least the 1970s. Methods and techniques now have the ability to target you individually but the overall premise is nothing new.

> The sad truth for us software engineers is, a lot of the most exciting work is at least tangentially related to refining this trickery: big data, machine learning, etc.

Well, I'm in Aerospace and there are plenty of interesting problems to solve here that have nothing to do with "trickery"; it's just that 100 year old companies aren't "sexy" to young kids, often don't "move fast and break stuff" and frankly don't throw obscene amounts of money to bait them.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by u76X3k7w2iUrAPn on Friday February 01, 2019 @01:42PM (#19057081)
I'm a relatively fresh grad working in development for a university. It's slow. It's stable. It's not very sexy. I could probably double my salary elsewhere. But, my conscience is pretty clean for this very reason. I build tools to make university operations more efficient, not to squeeze every last drop of data from our users or manipulate them into buying a product.

There are definitely problems to be addressed in higher ed and how universities are run, but it's nowhere near Silicon Valley's lack of ethics.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by robocat on Friday February 01, 2019 @02:19PM (#19057485)
In NZ I find universities are an awful mixture of academic uselessness, and corporate greed (their incentives are mostly according to number of students moving through, not benefit to the students or society).

I have seen they can be fun places to work though, depending on the politics of the department.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by jimmytucson on Friday February 01, 2019 @03:44PM (#19058393)
> Eh, this has existed for decades at a macro level in over-the-air television and radio.

Advertising predates the internet, of course. What does not is the ability to personalize advertising to the individual using computer intelligence trained on volumes of data about people’s lives, recorded in microscopic detail. I don’t think the level of manipulation and personalization pre-internet is comparable to what advertising firms such as Google and Facebook are capable of now.

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by thisisweirdok on Friday February 01, 2019 @12:25PM (#19056150)
Yes. 100% this. Someone's just pushing pixels around looking for some numbers to increase without actually dealing with the experience like a human.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by throwawaymjabba on Friday February 01, 2019 @11:39PM (#19061119)
Another one is body sensors. I disabled body sensor permission for play services. Whenever I am using Google Maps, it would complain about the permission every few minutes. Thankfully, found later an option to disable that nagging in maps setting. Maps still worked fine.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by codedokode on Saturday February 02, 2019 @04:35AM (#19062080)
It reminds me of Android 5 where every time you enable GPS, Google shows a popup asking you to share your location with them (very annoying). And besides, there is a checkbox "Don't ask me again", but if you tick it, the "Decline" button gets disabled to ensure that you don't make the wrong choice.

[1] https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/115944/how-to-pr...

Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by throwmeback on Monday February 04, 2019 @06:01AM (#19075354)
It's still there in Android 7 and it's still a travesty.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by anonytrary on Saturday February 02, 2019 @12:52AM (#19061386)
I've actively been avoiding Pinterest and Quora because I know they'll pester me about signing up an hide their content behind a soft wall. I don't share links to these sites with anyone anymore.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by james_s_tayler on Saturday February 02, 2019 @12:16AM (#19061260)
So what we have learned is that manipulation works.
Re:New study: Google manipulates users into constant tracking by abapologist on Friday February 01, 2019 @01:58PM (#19057265)
These are the basic forces of commerce. Or any interaction. Amazon, target, even my loca coffee shops are not aligned with what’s best for me. They’re aligned with what’s best for them, with an eye towards maximizing overlap.

But where they want the customer to do something the customer wouldn’t, that happens everywhere. It’s not limited to tech.