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Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by robertAngst on Thursday December 13, 2018 @05:20PM (#18676661)
You say this is a good thing, until you go to Europe and get treated terrible service.

I was seriously confused why our waters werent getting filled up, despite walking 10+ miles before noon. Or why the waiter wasnt coming to our table to take our order. Or why the waiter didn't check on us.

After sharing this story with locals, it seems their expectations are far less for restaurants.

I don't have much of an opinion on how to pay waiters, but Italy did not impress me.

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by saidajigumi on Thursday December 13, 2018 @05:26PM (#18676703)
I'm not familiar with Italy specifically, but note that service expectations differ broadly in the EU. In many countries, customers expect to be left alone until they signal the wait staff for something. The American notion of staff that hovers over and/or badgers you constantly is largely absent.

In the countries I've travelled to, I've generally had excellent service, bearing the above in mind.

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by chimeracoder on Thursday December 13, 2018 @07:12PM (#18677336)
> The American notion of staff that hovers over and/or badgers you constantly is largely absent.

This is a straw man. Nobody in the US expects this - and in fact, it's rare that this even happens. At most the server will "interrupt" you once once your food arrives to check in, and even that varies by restaurant.

> In many countries, customers expect to be left alone until they signal the wait staff for something

I think you're missing what people are talking about when they talk about "terrible or slow service" in Europe. It's not that they wait for you to signal to them, but that they take so long to appear where you can find them in the first place, and that once you do grab their attention, they still take ages to actually come and serve you. They're not necessarily doing anything important or urgent (chatting idly with their coworkers, wiping down the bar, what have you), and it's eminently clear that they simply don't view providing prompt and effective service to customers as their priority.

I could give countless stories of how slow and inefficient service in Europe tends to be, or even how downright rude servers can be.

For the record, yes, this is a strictly European phenomenon. There are plenty of other places in the world (both where tipping is expected and where it isn't) where this is not an issue.

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by albedoa on Friday December 14, 2018 @12:23AM (#18678649)
> Nobody in the US expects this - and in fact, it's rare that this even happens. At most the server will "interrupt" you once once your food arrives to check in, and even that varies by restaurant.

I live in the North East, and not only does a typical experience involve frequent table visits, it is an increasingly popular topic when discussing restaurants and sharing or writing reviews. People will raise it before mentioning the food!

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by dragonwriter on Thursday December 13, 2018 @07:20PM (#18677363)
> At most the server will "interrupt" you once once your food arrives to check in

My experience is that is closer to a (frequently exceeded) minimum in US restaurants offering full table service than a maximum (except for the rare case where the server completely disappears and neither checks nor can be summoned without accosting a busser or some other server, but those are presumably employee failures and not restaurant practice.)

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by zdragnar on Thursday December 13, 2018 @07:47PM (#18677499)
Having lived in the US all my life, service typically goes as follows:

Host seats you

Waiter delivers menus, asks if you want drinks

Waiter returns with drinks, asks if you're ready to order, and if not, comes back 5 min later

Waiter delivers food

Waiter comes back in 5 minutes to make sure it's to your liking

Waiter comes back to ask if you want dessert, and if not, hands you the bill.

If you've taken a long time to eat, they may return once or twice to keep your drinks topped off.

That's it. It's formulaic and quite standard. In my decades of living in various states, I've never had an experience like I see EU folk on here complain about.

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by ksec on Thursday December 13, 2018 @11:29PM (#18678485)
>Waiter delivers menus, asks if you want drinks

Waiter returns with drinks, asks if you're ready to order, and if not, comes back 5 min later

Waiter delivers food

Waiter comes back in 5 minutes to make sure it's to your liking

Waiter comes back to ask if you want dessert, and if not, hands you the bill. >

Which in certain places is precisely too much? What is considered to be minimal and norm by some, is too much by others.

I will ask for Drinks,

I will ask to place orders,

I will ask for desert when I want to,

I will tell you if the food is bad, or more like I will not tell you and leave it on the plate.

Don't come and talk to me with small talks, I am enjoying my time with my guest.

And I will ask for bills

The only thing the waiter have to do is to keep an eye on the table from time to time because he or she should know what the stages of that table is up to.

You see, that is the difference with expectation. Push and Pull. Americans expect the Services to be Pushed to them, while many others expect services only when asked, Pull. ( I wish I could think of a HTTP jokes here )

As to the tipping culture, in some places it is absolutely insulting to tip.

And no, A Glass of water is not a standard part of services before you ask.

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by dragonwriter on Thursday December 13, 2018 @08:00PM (#18677563)
Having also lived in the USA all my life, several rounds of checking in if they can get anything else, refill drinks, and/or clear plates are also common, though not universal (and better—read, roughly, more expensive—establishments will do much of that without asking and so interrupt less for the same end result.)
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by craftyguy on Friday December 14, 2018 @12:09PM (#18682411)
> Nobody in the US expects this

GP did.

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by sitharus on Thursday December 13, 2018 @05:34PM (#18676768)
In my country it's considered rude to interrupt people while they're talking or eating. We wouldn't want someone to come to the table without being asked. Unless you're at a dinner service often water isn't served, you're expected to get it yourself from the counter. In the major cities US-style service is more common and most locals find it annoying and just wave the server away.

The worst service I've ever had was in Canada where they do tip, and I was rating that by the North American standards rather than my home country's. I still tipped the standard amount because I disagree with tipping, but he didn't seem incentivised.

It's important to rate experiences by what the region is expecting, not by what you expect at home.

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by chapium on Thursday December 13, 2018 @09:15PM (#18677895)
It wouldnt be considered rude if it were a routine transaction, which in the US it is. Obviously we wouldnt want the waiter interrupting for tasks outside the norm.
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by dhab on Thursday December 13, 2018 @09:30PM (#18677976)
In my experience having lived in 3 countries (5 years each), where tipping was implied good etiquette the most only in the US, and partly in Canada; by the rough measure of filling water or checking on folks and things of that sort, US isn't any better or worse than the other countries. In fact, I was actually told by someone in the US told me they employ strategies of being friendly and spend a few minutes conversing with patrons as they present the bill, so that they can drive the tip up (for good reasons - since they depend on them quite a bit).

Where I am living currently, I think there is more income equality - partly I believe is because of having more or less good wages despite line of work, and you get treated like how someone would normally treat you without being forced upon with the expectation of a tip.

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by timr on Thursday December 13, 2018 @05:40PM (#18676807)
"You say this is a good thing, until you go to Europe and get treated terrible service."

Then you go to Japan, where the service is dramatically better than the US, and you realize that they don't expect tips, either...

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by kbar13 on Thursday December 13, 2018 @06:04PM (#18676959)
japan's culture highly highly values above and beyond service. i dont think you'll be able to get anything like japanese level service anywhere else
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by berbec on Thursday December 13, 2018 @08:06PM (#18677596)
Oh you can, even in America. The best service I ever encountered was at Jean George's in NYC.

It WAS a Michelan-Starred restaurant and our two-person bill was $800 with a $200 tip!

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by nihonde on Thursday December 13, 2018 @05:41PM (#18676808)
The level of service in Japan, where tipping is not customary, completely disproves your thesis.
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by WillPostForFood on Thursday December 13, 2018 @05:49PM (#18676861)
It doesn’t disprove it. It could disprove it, or Japan could just have an incredibly polite service oriented culture.
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by 51lver on Thursday December 13, 2018 @06:23PM (#18677078)
It nicely shoots down the idea that tipping is required for good service. Done.
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by friedman23 on Thursday December 13, 2018 @09:10PM (#18677856)
Good job shooting down that argument, can you point me to where someone made that claim?
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by nihonde on Friday December 14, 2018 @12:16AM (#18678631)
“You say this is a good thing, until you go to Europe and get treated terrible service.” = A policy of no tips results in poor service.
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by friedman23 on Friday December 14, 2018 @01:59AM (#18679001)
No that statement does not state that tips are required for good service, it implies that if Europe had tips it would have better service than it does today. Obviously tips are not required for good service as many restaurants and even Japan as a whole manage to do it.
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by THE_PUN_STOPS on Thursday December 13, 2018 @06:40PM (#18677166)
Arigatou Gozaimasu!
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by manigandham on Friday December 14, 2018 @02:26AM (#18679121)
Cultures vary. Many regions have waiters that are called when needed rather than coming by themselves. I much prefer that to the awkward interruptions in American restaurants just so we can say "everything's fine" in the middle of a conversation.

Waiters working for tips leads to a territorial approach to customers and leads to an awkward dynamic where they aren't focused on good service but rather the impression of good service required for the tip.

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by rb666 on Friday December 14, 2018 @12:10AM (#18678615)
Silly anecdotal evidence. I can counter that with having received terrible service in the US. Especially because each waited only cares about their own little territory where they expect to farm tips. Means getting ignored by other waiters. I supposes Americans are used to this, but travel some and you'll realize it's completely bonkers, and NOT good service.
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by nicolas_t on Friday December 14, 2018 @03:10AM (#18679281)
What's interesting is that every time the topic comes up, you get Europeans who complain about the service in the US and Americans who complain about the service in Europe.

I'm on the European side of things so I do not want to be approached while eating. I want to flag the waiter whenever I want something and I absolutely hate fake small talk in order to drive the tip up. It feels so artificial and not genuine (and happened often enough in the US).

I do like small talks with waiters that are genuine but having the possibility of a tip kind of destroys that.

To be fair though, waiters in touristy places everywhere suck. So that might also be the issue if you went to a tourist hole instead of a restaurant for locals.

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by philliphaydon on Friday December 14, 2018 @12:01AM (#18678581)
There is no tipping in Asia and I have better service here than Europe? Especially in Taiwan. Drop a chop stick? They are at your table with a new set before it hits the ground. Cup half empty, boom they fill it.
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by craftyguy on Friday December 14, 2018 @12:08PM (#18682406)
> I was seriously confused why our waters werent getting filled up, despite walking 10+ miles before noon. Or why the waiter wasnt coming to our table to take our order. Or why the waiter didn't check on us.

Unlike the US, waiters don't bug you every 30 seconds, and I consider that a feature. You actually have to ask for things you want, and you signal to a waiter when you want something. Unless you found an exceptionally shitty restaurant, they'll almost always come right over.

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by msl on Friday December 14, 2018 @03:34AM (#18679374)
> You say this is a good thing, until you go to Europe and get treated terrible service.

Try Eastern Europe. You are expected to tip, and the service is usually atrociously slow (and not necessarily good in any other way either). Bad service culture is bad service culture. Where I live waiters are expected to perform their jobs properly just like everyone else.

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by Veen on Friday December 14, 2018 @10:28AM (#18681449)
But if I were to say the service was terrible, and therefore I didn't tip, that would be disapproved of. In the US, I am expected to tip whether or not the service was good, so how does that incentivize good service - unless I'm expected to tip even more when I'm pleased with the service.
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by tjr225 on Friday December 14, 2018 @01:02AM (#18678779)
Not impressed by the deeply poor? Color me un-empathetic. That's the entire issue that is being discussed here. Supply and demand has nothing to do with humanity.
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by chrischen on Friday December 14, 2018 @01:50AM (#18678957)
I can provide an anecdote too. You can go to Japan, and get treated with terribly good service (no tips there).
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by vernie on Thursday December 13, 2018 @05:44PM (#18676823)
Americans love to be tyrannical and punitive, particularly with service employees. And business owners are more than happy to grant them that in exchange for lower wages. Feels like a fair trade to me.
Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by batiudrami on Thursday December 13, 2018 @11:45PM (#18678535)
It's an interesting cultural thing though. The number of times I've seen people on HN calling for someone to lose their job over a public fuck up rather than treating it as a learning experience for the employee seems absurd.

The idea that you should grovel and always defer to your boss because they're kind enough to employ you is something I've only seen from Americans.

Re:Instacart and Amazon-owned Whole Foods are parting ways by ramphastidae on Friday December 14, 2018 @12:20AM (#18678643)
> The idea that you should grovel and always defer to your boss because they're kind enough to employ you is something I've only seen from Americans.

Because that's the reality — most of us can be fired at any time for any reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment