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Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @11:09AM (#18392211)
As a french, seing french government officials trying to impose their knee-jerk « let’s tax it » reaction to any kind of problem makes me absolutely sick. They’re just a bunch of jealous incompetent insufferable pompous politicians than don’t understand a thing about the private sector and so instead of trying to fix the numerous reason why we don’t have any competitor to google / facebook etc ( such as our best engineers fleeing to silicon for the last 30 years) , and how come all those companies HQ in europe are in ireland, prefer to add tax.

That will solve absolutely NOT A SINGLE ISSUE , but it’s just another income to feed the bureaucracy.

Thanks to the three countries that stopped this madness.

PS : i also find it outrageous that gafa don’t pay taxes, but let’s fix the tax heavens in Europe then. Don’t start making special taxes on revenue ffs.

EDIT : changed "income" to revenue.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by simias on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @12:18PM (#18392915)
I mean this is a tax problem first and foremost isn't it? The problem being that it's hard for countries to enforce regulations in a virtualized, globalized economy. It's true that it's not just about tax, you also have issues regarding what is and isn't legal in a given country (nazi apology is illegal in France for instance, but good luck enforcing that on the web. Similarly the super harsh "no nudity" rule on american websites is often seen as abusive over here for instance). I mean you seem to agree on that point yourself so it seems that they're not completely wrong to try and fix that.

>They’re just a bunch of jealous incompetent insufferable pompous politicians than don’t understand a thing about the private sector

Talking about knee-jerk reactions.

I strongly dislike this type of empty populist diatribe, that's how we give up on democracy and end up with incompetent fools at the government, just out of spite. Screaming "tous pourris" is not improving anything and is frankly insulting for the many elected officials who are genuinely trying to improve things. Regardless of what they did or didn't do there would be people like you who scream bloody outrage because they're obviously stupid people who understand nothing about nothing. Meanwhile you're not the one trying to balance the budget of a country within the EU.

>let’s fix the tax heavens in Europe then

And how do you propose we do that? Have Le Maire go to the various tax heavens (which in this particular instance would have to include Ireland) and tell them to tax more? How many bottles of Bordeaux would he have to bring to seal the deal?

Having a uniform tax code across the EU would be awesome but it's not like we're anywhere close to something like that.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:54PM (#18393852)
I’m pro europe, but let’s face it, if we can’t get any kind of cooperation between state members regarding taxes, then maybe it’s time to rethink the inside mechanicsm of the union ( which may include restart from scratch with fewer countries).

This revenue tax won’t change anything. It’s just ransom, and i hate feeling like my representatives make me look like a lazy thief.

I’d even prefer something like what china is doing : since google is a monopoly in europe, which makes it impossible for competitor to compete, let’s impose tarifs or prevent them from doing business in europe as long as they haven’t split, or a true local competitor has emerged. At least this would be very specific to one very particular case. Not the kind of gigantic tax on a whole economy.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by cabalamat on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:52PM (#18394795)
> if we can’t get any kind of cooperation between state members regarding taxes, then maybe it’s time to rethink the inside mechanicsm of the union ( which may include restart from scratch with fewer countries).

The problem is when things require unanimity. It's very hard to get all 28 countries to agree to something.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by mmirate on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:55PM (#18396597)
28 cultures is quite a lot of diversity to suddenly and forcibly slam onto a single party-line. Have you considered that maybe this collection of cultures might have values and methods that are sufficiently mutually different, that there often isn't a single policy that will satisfy all of them?

Here in the USA we have an analogous situation, but it is maintained - for at least a century and a half - with enough top-down brute force to keep the resulting tensions simmered-down such that they are only expressed via things like the "culture wars" phenomenon.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by plandis on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:48PM (#18394313)
What does Google have a monopoly on? Do you not have access to iOS? Do you not have access to DuckDuckGo and Bing?
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:59PM (#18394400)
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by SilasX on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:26PM (#18394628)
I don't think "monopoly" is best judged by "current market share", but by whether a) it's easy for users to switch, and b) whether having that market share is self-reinforcing in a way that prevents competitors from entering.

The parent's point was that a) is not true for Google as a search engine.

b) doesn't seem to be true either; while money and experience can make you provide better search results, you don't get an advantage just from a high current percentage of searches.

In a trivial sense you can "SilasX has a monopoly on SilasX's labor" or "Joe Schmoe has a monopoly on hot dogs sold at Elm & Main St". That's not the monopoly anyone cares about. What matters is whether it's difficult to bring online the alternatives to employing my labor or buying a hot dog in that vicinity. In that respect, Google's monopoly on search is not the worrisome kind of thing we associate with monopolies.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by belorn on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:00AM (#18397936)
b) whether having that market share is self-reinforcing in a way that prevents competitors from entering.

The argument is that large market share cause user capture. It is relative trivial to bring online an alterative youtube, but video creators can't switch unless the audience also switch and the audience can't switch unless the creators also switch. A subpar job by youtube won't automatically mean that competitor can disrupt, and a lot of users, content creator, advertisers, basically every type of users has been cited as disliking youtube but being locked in with no realistic alternative.

a) it's easy for users to switch

For google search, online stores that use google for advertisement and getting new customers can't easily switch as that would result in abandon 90% of new customer. They can't just buy their hot dog elsewhere. Online stores have to deal with google, unless their customer base is located elsewhere.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by SilasX on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:10AM (#18399176)
I was addressing search, not advertising or video hosting.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by l9k on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:39PM (#18395571)
So what you're saying is it's easy to compete with Google and get some market share in that space?
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by SilasX on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:01PM (#18395664)
No.

I'm trying to outline a useful definition of "[bad-]monopoly" that captures the stuff we generally care about when we worry about them.

It's important to have a definition that excludes "they're just unusually good and so people happen to be currently buying from them, purely as an issue of merit". (If Joe happens to be the best hot dog vendor on some intersection, that's different than if he can prevent others who want to from opening shop nearby.)

I said Google doesn't count as the kind of bad-monopoly because they're easy to switch away from, and the market share isn't self-reinforcing.

It doesn't follow that Google is easy to take market share from. That could be the case of "legitimately good at what they do", and is not how you should define a worrisome monopoly.

A company being so good that others can't gain market share isn't (necessarily) a bad-monopoly. Only if that difficulty came from the factors above, would it count as a bad-monopoly.

(Those factors being the vendor lock-in and the self-reinforcing aspect.)

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by paulddraper on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @12:16AM (#18397236)
He's saying that (1) they have a horizontal monopoly, but not a vertical one. And (2) the monopoly is due to Google's quality. Should they do a subpar job, they would be disrupted.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by SilasX on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:04AM (#18397383)
You are a lot more economical with words than me :-)
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by Shivetya on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:52PM (#18393829)
having a uniform tax code would pretty much doom the small economies to not having opportunity to grown unless it was "granted to them" as a favor by the same union government.

the ability of member states to set their own taxes is about the only protection they have handling down turns and getting new industry. their currency was given up and without the ability to print money they need other means to mitigate adverse changes to their economies. it is one reason Greece was trapped so long in their misery, bound up by EU laws and stuck with a currency they had no control over.

In the US it works by forcing states to compete on regulation and taxes which benefits everyone. because onerous taxation on one group will certainly follow with others because once that line is crossed it becomes to easy to keep doing so. Indirect taxes are a politicians best friend because you have ready bogeymen and no apparent affect on the public though in reality they are paying the end result

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by simias on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:04PM (#18394433)
I agree that "uniform" wasn't the right word, I was thinking more about cooperating and managing taxes as a whole (in order to find a compromise that would benefit everybody). It doesn't mean that everybody would have the same taxes but at least there would be some level of coherency.

>In the US it works by forcing states to compete on regulation and taxes which benefits everyone.

Everyone except the environment at least, it's often the first regulation to go. This kind of competition gives an edge to rich people and big companies who can afford to relocate if they dislike the way they're taxed or regulated somewhere, meanwhile low-skilled workers and small companies can't generally move a thousand of km away on a whim.

In Europe this is even worse because we have cultural and language barriers. Even for an educated worker moving from London to Berlin to Paris to Prague is not a simple thing at all. The only ones who benefit from this infighting are large companies and rich people who can more easily relocate their income in order to get the best deal possible.

See the whole Amazon HQ2 thing for an example of that in the US, you end up with a huge company getting great benefits that no small player could ever dream of. How is that fair and how does that benefit everyone? How does tech giants moving to Ireland to pay less taxes benefit everyone? It benefits Ireland arguably, but overall the EU gets less money than we otherwise would.

I mean just for the sake of the argument we could imagine that the EU as a whole would agree to tax these tech giants a certain amount, bigger than what Ireland makes them pay now. Then we give the Irish exactly the same amount they're currently receiving and we redistribute the rest within the EU. Wouldn't we be objectively better off in this scenario?

Now of course that would be a weird arrangement but you see my point, the real winners here are Google and Facebook, not Ireland, Germany or Poland.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by woodpanel on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @04:55PM (#18395221)
> Then we give the Irish exactly the same amount they're currently receiving

Please don't take this the wrong way but: There's a whole body of tax-literature and tax-philosophy that renders such a statement naive.

How do you figure e.g., how the current money Ireland makes is linked to the increase or decrease of tax-rates? How is it linked to other factors making Ireland worthwhile to invest? How much was Ireland accumulating on those other factors, because it has been a tech tax haven so long? How much future growth of these factors is taken from Ireland because of your proposed regime? And how do you deal with a decrease in overall EU tech tax income (per country) because of your proposed regime? Would you e.g. go so far as to pay Ireland its current income even if the overall EU tech tax income would be lower? Would you otherwise grow Ireland's pay with an increased overall EU tech tax income, beyond Ireland's current income, and if so what would be Ireland's fair share?

And while those questions can have multiple correct answers, those questions have to be answered in a consistent way, because rule of law. And that consistency alone is often enough a problem, because other countries have other consistencies their taxing has to apply to, again because rule of law. And those laws are usually not just paper, but codifications of hundreds of years of cultural norms and customs.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by simias on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:14AM (#18397991)
I acknowledge that my thought experiment was very simplistic and ignores many factors but my point was that I can't really imagine how we'd end up worse off negotiating as a whole union instead of competing with each other internally and trying to undercut your partners at any occasion. I mean, that's the whole principle behind unions (as in syndicate of workers for instance), as a whole you have more bargaining power, as individuals you're as weak as your weakest link (whoever is willing to concede the biggest tax breaks, cut down on environmental regulations etc...).

I mean the EU, the free market, the euro, all that doesn't have "hundreds of years of cultural norms and customs" behind it. Why couldn't we go further? The only thing that we've had consistently over hundreds (or even thousand) of years in Europe is warfare and royal inbreeding. If we could avoid having to invade Ireland or having our finance ministers wed each-other in order to settle this tax dispute I think it would be grand.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by woodpanel on Thursday November 08, 2018 @09:55AM (#18406605)
> The only thing that we've had consistently over hundreds (or even thousand) of years in Europe is warfare and royal inbreeding

While I used to say exactly that for most of my life, trust me this is a gross oversimplification. With an emphasis on gross. Law traditions date back to the Romans, Celts, Germanics and others at least. And of course no sovereign country on the onset of the EU would have accepted the new EU norms if they were to contradict with their own. That the EU nowadays tries to impose rules that contradict those norms is reason for the ever rising resentment of Brussels around Europe.

> If we could avoid having to invade Ireland

You say it yourself: How can we declare moral superiority if we are openly discussing invading Ireland because we've abandoned pillar principles like national sovereignty?

How can you lament "over hundreds (or even thousand) of years in Europe [of] warfare" while simultaneously abandon the core lesson of those wars (sovereignty)?

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by lambdadmitry on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:03PM (#18394423)
I'm not sure that blaming Greece problems on the EU instead of unsustainable social policies and populist and/or corrupt politicians is fair. After all, a populist with more knobs to their country's economy is still a populist and, if anything, will bury the country's economy even faster.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by StephenAmar on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @11:30AM (#18392446)
As a French, I totally support this tax. It's easier and more expedient to do it this way than to reform the taxation policies of every European countries.

Also, why is it wrong to tax the income of corporations?

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by titanix2 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:17PM (#18393474)
I support it too. Big corporations pay almost no taxes in our country; instead it is individual and small and medium entreprises that are heavily taxed. This makes it very hard to start and run a business in the long term.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bluecalm on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:03PM (#18393934)
They pay VAT for sells in your country. It doesn't matter if it's consumer or a company paying the tax, the amount is added to the price. If you want them tax then increase that. Why do you feel entitled to profits of the company that isn't based in your country?

It's like thinking the company should pay 5m in tax in Ireland based on sells in France while being ok with them deducting expenses from unrelated business in Ireland which you shouldn't care at all. If they paid that rate you should be happy even not even one dollar more made it to your country.

The whole idea doesn't make any sense at all. You want companies to pay more in your country? Tax exactly that - consumption of their goods in your country. It's not your business to decide how other countries choose to organize their tax code. Seriously fuck you for trying to force them. Ideas like that make EU much less popular idea that it was in the past.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by sofixa on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:13PM (#18394515)
> They pay VAT for sells in your country. It doesn't matter if it's consumer or a company paying the tax, the amount is added to the price. If you want them tax then increase that.

VAT is tax for consumers, not corporations.

> Why do you feel entitled to profits of the company that isn't based in your country?

Because those profits are made from sales in that country, and every physical company selling in that country pays their taxes, just because Internet-based companies can avoid having a physical presence to perform their sales (Amazon still has warehouses), doesn't make them exempt from the same logic.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by obpacheco on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @10:46PM (#18396963)
>VAT is tax for consumers, not corporations.

at the end of the day does it really matter? It's totally a tax on the corporations ability to do business. If we taxed the companies causing them to increase prices by 10%, the consumer still ends up having to pay 10% more on the products. Or if we taxed the companies at the point of sale for 10%, it's the same outcome for consumers.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by woodpanel on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:50PM (#18395610)
> VAT is tax for consumers, not corporations

Sorry, but where does this misconception come from that companies don't pay VAT? It's not true, I see it on my company's tax statement every month ;-)

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by Rexxar on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:30PM (#18396194)
The answer is that company is the tax collector, not the tax payer. IMHO it's mainly a semantic distinction, the result is practically the same.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:53AM (#18397898)
it’s absolutely not the same. If the VAT goes up 10%, your benefits after taxes won’t change one bit.

VAT is indeed not paid by corporations.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by Rexxar on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @02:19PM (#18401470)
If price is already fixed in a contract it's not the same, indeed. For new client, it's basically equivalent as the price will adjust. (For example, higher TVA => client pay more => less demand => you have to reduce margin to keep some clients. In this case even if you don't technically pay the tax, you lose money if the tax become higher).
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bluecalm on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @10:52AM (#18399890)
>>VAT is tax for consumers, not corporations.

It doesn't matter. It gets added to the price. All the money paid in taxes comes from consumers - be it VAT, sales tax, tax on profit, tarrifs - you name it. It doesn't matter which side you tax, it matters what kind of activity taxing is focused on.

>>Because those profits are made from sales in that country

Sales in that country is one element. Another is being efficient and well organized which another country allows. If you want to tax sells in your country - do it, I think it's great idea.

>>just because Internet-based companies can avoid having a physical presence to perform their sales (Amazon still has warehouses), doesn't make them exempt from the same logic.

Physical goods companies can avoid presence as well. A lot of them ship products to other countries but don't have offices there. They pay VAT.

It's easy to see why taxing profits is a very bad idea by considering situations where that tax differs from consumption tax. Here are few showing ridiculousness of taxing corporate profits:

1)Company A makes and sells tires, Company B makes and sells electronic chips. Company C does both. They don't differ much in efficiency or quality and C does the same volume as A and B in their respective industries. Now let's say 2020 is a bad year for tires due to increasing prices of materials and a very good year for chips due to AI advancement (everyone wants new AI equipped vacuum cleaner or w/e). Company A losses money, company B makes money. Company C makes as much money as company B on chips but losses same as company A on tires. Company C pays less tax than A and B combined. I hope it's obvious why this is bad. This alone makes tax on profits ridiculous idea. We just need something different.

2)Company A and B do the same thing. The difference is that management of company A likes buying high level employees exotic super cars and expensive trips. In 2020 companies A and B have the same product, same sells. The difference is that company's B employees drive 5 years old Volskwagens to clients and organize most of its meetings online while company's B employees drive and service super cars and go to Maldives 2 times a year. Company B pays more taxes.

3)In a small country there are only 2 companies and all the taxes come from them and their employees. They do the same thing - produce cars because that's what the citizens are good at. company A breaks even, company B has better management and produce same cars but more efficiently thus showing profits. Company A is happy with functioning as it is. Only company B pays taxes and funds schools, roads, hospitals. Socialists come to power and they want increase corporate taxes (as they are economically ignorant). Now Company B pays even higher taxes while Company's A tax burden doesn't change. Company's B employees lose motivation to work smarter because they see new taxes just tax their ingenuity and there is little incentive to make processes efficient. Maybe it's better to buy super cars and expensive exotic trips.

4)Two companies A and B in country X do software business. A buys licenses for components from a company in Switzerland (high labor costs thus higher prices), B develops them domestically for 50% of cost. Both companies have 10M in sells. B pays 9M for software, A pays 4.5M for development. Corporate tax rate is 20%. Citizens of the country V get 5.5M * 0.2 = 1.1M for roads and schools from company B and only 0.2M from company A, the difference goes to Swiss people. Even if tax rate in Switzerland is 30% it doesn't make any sense for country X to adopt this policy. No amount of forcing Switzerland to extract "fair share" is going to change that, their rate is already higher (of course Switzerland doesn't have 30% rate as that would be idiotic, I am just making a hypothetical).

There are more of this. It's easy to see. Focusing on taxing corporate profits is a sign of being short-sighted and petty thinking. It's not what you want even if equality is your major goal. Taxing profits defends lazy incumbents and makes things we don't want tax advantaged strategy this includes combining various activities under one umbrella, buying pointless shit because of tax deductions and temporary price gauging to kill upcoming companies.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by J_cst on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:59PM (#18394405)
AFAIK Vat is a tax which insist on consumers, not on companies.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bluecalm on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @10:57AM (#18399929)
Usually companies collect it and pay it but it really doesn't matter. At the end of the day all the money the corporation has comes from consumers and chunk of it goes to taxes. The question is what you are allowed to deduct and how tax burden is distributed among various companies. Every company will try to sell goods for as much as the customers are willing to pay. The consumer doesn't care if there is VAT, environmental tax or whatever else included. They just look at the final price.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by njarboe on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:24PM (#18394603)
So an oil company that buys steel pipe to make an oil well doesn't pay VAT on the pipe? Not a European, so just asking.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by lultimouomo on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:38PM (#18394711)
Either it pays the VAT and gets an equal tax credit, or it doesn't pay it at all (when applying reverse charge). Result is the same, VAT is not a cost for enteprises. Obviously the fact that end consumers pay VAT might disincentivise them to buy stuff, so companies still suffer the effects of high VAT rates.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bluecalm on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @11:00AM (#18399959)
>>Result is the same, VAT is not a cost for enteprises.

It's not a cost when transacting with other companies but it's obviously a cost when selling to end customers. If people are willing to buy a car for 20 000 Euro you will be forced to sell for 16 666 Euro + 20% VAT, you can't magically sell for 20 000 + 20% VAT because "consumers pay VAT". If materials + labor cost of a car is 10 000 Euro you make 6 666 Euro per car if there is 20% VAT and 10 000 Euro per car if there is no VAT.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by woodpanel on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @04:32PM (#18395077)
> Result is the same, VAT is not a cost for enteprises.

That's just partly true. Depending on the taxing agreements between two countries involved you can apply reverse charge, yes. But within one company's country, the VAT is not something that you can "just refund" from the government. Instead you can set off the VAT you've paid against the VAT your customers paid.

In other words: The only way for you pay zero VAT is if your earnings (income minus expenditures) are zero too (something that despite the tax-evasion clichés is something that companies usually try to avoid).

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by unilynx on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:13PM (#18395373)
That's not how VAT works. As a simple example for a EU company:

- buy something nationally (you pay VAT to the company) - export it to another EU company (reverse charge, so no VAT received or paid) - get the VAT refunded from your local tax agency.

Even nationally, you get VAT refunded if you've paid more to others than you've collected. At least for NL, but I'm pretty sure these rules should be the same in all EU countries.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by lultimouomo on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:29PM (#18395494)
This.

There are exceptions (e.g. in Italy you only get refunded for 50% of the VAT you pay when buying phones, or 40% the VAT you pay when buying cars), but they are pretty much that, exceptions.

If operating domestically you will usually get more VAT money from customers than you will give to suppliers, so you will pay the difference to the state. If for any reason you pay more to suppliers than you get from customers, the difference becomes a tax credit that you can carry to the following accounting period or deduce from some other tax.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by mamon on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:56PM (#18395639)
>> If for any reason you pay more to suppliers than you get from customers, the difference becomes a tax credit that you can carry to the following accounting period or deduce from some other tax.

In Poland it is even possible to get that difference in cash - Tax office wire transfers it to your bank account. This gave birth to a countless scams, where the shell companies forge invoices, ask for VAT tax refund and then disappear with the money.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by woodpanel on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:36PM (#18395544)
How is that any different to what I've said?

> Even nationally, you get VAT refunded if you've paid more to others than you've collected.

You do realize that this implies you're operating at a loss? Thus my statement about companies usually being run to make profits.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by lultimouomo on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:59PM (#18395649)
But if you get more VAT from your customers than you give to your suppliers, when you're "paying" the difference to the state you're just forwarding part of the VAT which your customers paid, you're not paying it yourself.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by woodpanel on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:21PM (#18395765)
You see the error here? You write an amount in an invoice, the customer pays you. From that, the taxman demands his percentage later on from you. The only way to reduce the amount you have to pay is by buying stuff. Nowhere in the process is the customer paying two parties.

It's just lexical. Would you say 'oh the company is just routing its income tax to the taxman' if companies had to put their income tax percantages on invoices too?

The client however pays you 10 bucks in gross regardless whether the VAT you have to pay afterwards is 7, 15 or 25%

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by lultimouomo on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:34PM (#18395836)
Would you say employers pay income taxes for employees if they retain part of their wage and forward it to the state as a down payment for the employee income tax? I wouldn't say so; income tax is paid by the employee, even if the employer is forwarding the money to the state.

It doesn't matter who puts the money in an envelope and goes to the tax office; it matters who is subject to the tax.

Non-EU turists traveling in Europe will pay VAT on souvenirs that they're bringing back to their countries, and upon exiting from EU they will actually will get the VAT back, since they paid for it, but they were not supposed to since the goods are in the end going to be used outside EU.

This would just not make sense if VAT was paid by the seller.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by woodpanel on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:12PM (#18396103)
Sorry, but I think you didn't read my comment.

No tax is paid by the customer. He always pays gross.

For example: you run a barber shop, mens haircut 10 €, womens 10€. You charge mens from your VAT-exempt company, women from your non-VAT-exempt company. Regardless of what you get in net, the customers hand you 10€ each. However the government takes 2€ from your womens hair cutting business, after you've filed your tax statement. The customer doesn't care whether you have to pay VAT or not.

If I may ask: Do you run a business where you have to deal with filing VAT on a regular basis? I'm asking because this misconception that businesses don't have to pay VAT is something that I've held myself, obviously because I didn't knew back then what I was talking about.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by lultimouomo on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:03AM (#18397709)
> If I may ask: Do you run a business where you have to deal with filing VAT on a regular basis? I'm asking because this misconception that businesses don't have to pay VAT is something that I've held myself, obviously because I didn't knew back then what I was talking about.

I very much do, I file quarterly and deal both domestically, intra-EU with reverse charge and extra-EU which is VAT exempt.

You're conflating the fact that you're filing VAT reports and forwarding VAT money to the state with the fact that you're paying VAT. These are two different things.

Again, do you pay employees? Do you retain some money from their wages and forward that to the state as a down payment on their income taxes[0]? Would you say that personal income tax is a tax on companies?

[0] I think this is usual in Europe; it surely is how it works in Italy

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by woodpanel on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @02:14PM (#18401432)
Okay I see this is getting nowhere ;-) Let me quote another user on this thread:

> "it’s absolutely not the same. If the VAT goes up 10%, your benefits after taxes won’t change one bit. VAT is indeed not paid by corporations."

but if you insist that somehow the customer is paying VAT to the government, then fine with me. I'm not here to be other people's tax-attorney.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by arbitrary_name on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:30PM (#18394665)
Wow, you really don't know what you're talking about... Stop reading Ayn Rand, it won't help.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @11:36AM (#18392506)
i meant revenue (which i think you'll understand why it's a problem if you've ever had to pay any corporate tax in your life).
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by snidane on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @12:47PM (#18393207)
I don't like income taxes either, but to be fair, all employees are paying taxes out of their 'revenues'.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:09PM (#18394476)
People don’t produce goods to sell ( so profits and revenue are actually not really relevant concepts). They’re the endpoint of the economy so they’re a very special item. Same reason something called VAT only apply to them.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by lovich on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:28PM (#18395805)
I have food, water, shelter, and healthcare inputs to maintain my body and keep producing services. Why would my income minus those costs not map to the ideas of revenue and profit?
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by adventured on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:07PM (#18396067)
Because those corporate profits are owned by people, shareholders. What remains after the corporate income tax usually winds up taxed just as your income is; ie generally those profits are not just taxed once. They also get taxed again after distribution. Or if the company later spends it to eg hire someone to try to expand, that also generates income taxation. Or if they buy something with it (new equipment) to bolster their business, somewhere in that chain it's generating further income taxation related to employees (the people that manufactured the equipment, whose salaries are being paid for by the equipment sale).

Consider Apple. They'll return hundreds of billions of dollars in profit to shareholders over time. Not only was the original profit taxed via a corporate income tax, the remaining profit that is distributed will then get taxed further as personal income. The owners of that profit ultimately see that profit taxed twice before it's freely in their bank account. They don't get to skip on the personal income taxes.

If you perceive that corporate profits are under taxed, it's because you're not following the taxation chain all the way to its conclusion. Ireland for example does not have low personal income taxes, that's in part how they've paid for the very low corporate income taxes.

Simplistically, fictional company Smithfield Inc produces $100m of taxable income, they pay a 20% rate on that. They have $80m remaining, after tax profit. That later gets distributed to the owners of the corporation. That $80m will now get taxed again.

The $100m in profit Smithfield generated will see a likely minimum of a total 40% tax rate - in pretty much all developed nations - before all the income taxation is performed on the profit and finally rests with the owners of the business free & clear.

Denmark has a 22% corporate tax rate. Their personal tax rate is high. That means the owners of the corporate profits will see that profit uber taxed, as much as 60% to 70% before the government is done with it.

The point is that the net taxation by the government on corporate profit is much larger than just the corporate income tax rate. That's merely the beginning.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by throwawayy1y1y on Thursday November 08, 2018 @10:17AM (#18406779)
Honest question, why if I want to give some money to another person it's going to be taxed again although it was already taxed (except close family etc.) in context to that double taxation you wrote about.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by lovich on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:35PM (#18396211)
First off

>What remains after the corporate income tax usually winds up taxed just as your income is

In the US at least, capital gains are taxed at a different, and lower, rate than individual income.

Secondly, how do the rest of your points not apply to individuals as well. Yes the company makes money and it's taxed, and then it's paid out to shareholders and they are taxed. When I buy food at the grocery it's not some special type of dollar that can't be taxed because I'm not a corporation.

Everyone I pay out money to gets taxed as well, including banks who I pay out for loans I was given, the same way investors are taxed on a corporations income.

The only difference is that companies get to pay less because they get to write off all their expenses, while individuals have a much smaller subset of items they can expense

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by woolvalley on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:39PM (#18394241)
Depends on how many deductions they get ;)

I get in the USA:

1. Mortgage interest deduction (controversial)

2. Property tax deduction (now limited with trump)

3. Transit & parking deduction

4. Retirement account 'deduction'

5. Medical plan deductions (controversial vs single payer)

6. Tax free company snacks, cafeteria food, t-shirts / swag and morale events. I think on site electric car charging is tax free too?

7. Reduced sales tax rates on essentials such as food, clothing depending on the state.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by grumpydba on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:16PM (#18395402)
As a fellow french having lots of tax lawyer friends, let me just say that you are naive. Google & al earn money in France, they should pay taxes. Simple. Right now those tech giants are using dubious tactics to avoid paying their fair share. What is needed is simply justice and fairness.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by kachurovskiy on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @11:26AM (#18392401)
Please help me understand why is it okay to tax people on income but not corporations?
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @11:33AM (#18392487)
Sorry, the project is actually about taxing "revenue", i fixed it, thanks.

Taxing on revenue means a corporation that actually loose money because its expenses (salaries, investmenst, etc) are larger than its sales would still have to pay taxes, making it loose even more money. It doesn't make any kind of sense unless you're targeting a very particular set of companies that you know are making money. In which case you're taxing those companies, but you're also creating a law that makes it almost impossible for new companies to start competing.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by Faark on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:29AM (#18399301)
The sad part is everyone would prefer taxing profits, but that just doesn't work with multinational firms. Since, you know, they will restructure their company to on paper generate all profit in a tax haven. For example their algorithms are owned there, even though it was probably developed by you local citizens, is deployed on you local server and the sale to the tax haven happened for a symbolic dollar and for sure not an open market.

It is also almost impossible for new companies to start competing if existing big players can easily avoid paying taxes while you cannot. And no, we cannot simply allow everyone to not pay taxes.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by jplayer01 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @05:31PM (#18402932)
You realize it's possible to adjust the taxes required on revenue so that it doesn't dwarf profit. It doesn't automatically follow that taxing revenue means that the taxes will be insanely, unpayably high. It's a strawman argument.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bluecalm on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:07PM (#18393978)
It does make tons of sense. What doesn't make sense is running a business that doesn't bring profits. Taxing revenue is one idea end accounting shenanigans and unfair practices like price gauging to eliminate competition which is now tax advantages strategy. Iam not a fan of it for other reasons but it does way more sense taxing profits which is just non workable idea.

EDIT: replying to child (not possible to reply directly): your argument about high cost industries is bogus. A system without tax on profits would just make those services more expensive as they should be (they are mostly high cost because they are very environmently unfriendly). It would also make higher margin services cheaper (cause they can afford it and there is less spending power). Once you actually think about it and analyze various scenarios you will realize that taxin profits from the very beginning was based on intellectual laziness and lack of ability to predict outcomes of such policies.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:22PM (#18394090)
You do realize the whole concept of a startup is about raising money because you know you can’t both grow fast enough to conquer a new market while at the same time making profits ?

Also, some companies like industries have huge revenues but make few profits because of the enormous cost to produce what they sell.

Try thinking about the various cases and you’ll soon realize there’s actually a very good reason why corporates taxes have always been on profits, since the very beginning.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by claudius on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:25PM (#18395464)
> You do realize the whole concept of a startup is about raising money because you know you can’t both grow fast enough to conquer a new market while at the same time making profits ?

But undoubtedly a start-up during that phase also benefits from public education and roads, from state-subsidized internet and transport, from security provided by the police force etc and hence should also pay its fair share towards those costs?

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:38PM (#18395558)
i suppose you're french, because it's the one argument people keep repeating again and again whenever someone speaks about tax reduction: but what about the roads then ?

The problem (beside the fact that corporate tax on revenues is just one tax corporations are paying among others) is :

1/ every single developed country has roads and hospitals and schools. Look at how much they ask for tax and the service they offer (and no, don't believe what people in france tell you. We don't have the best hospitals by far, and we don't have the best schools).

2/ at which point do you think we should stop adding taxes ? Is there a limit, or will you always be able to say "but then, what about the schools and the roads" ?

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by jfk13 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @04:07PM (#18394913)
> you can’t both grow fast enough to conquer a new market while at the same time making profits

Maybe it would be a good thing if "grow fast...conquer market" were less of a goal for new companies than building one of a number of stable and sustainable businesses serving a market?

Perhaps we'd get markets where a variety of products and services compete on their features and merits, each having an appropriate place within the overall market, instead of an unhealthy winner-takes-all situation where the startup that gets the most money thrown at it can spend its way to world domination.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by stickfigure on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @11:53AM (#18392663)
The best analogy is that taxing corporations on revenue would be like taxing you based on the # of hours you work, irrespective of your wage rate.

Folks that work low-wage or volunteer jobs would suddenly have negative income. The only viable jobs left would be bankers and software developers.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by vkou on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:04PM (#18393947)
I am, essentially, taxed based on my revenue, because my taxes don't let me deduct my rent, my car payments, my gasoline, or my groceries [1] - all of which are essential expenses that I need in order to continue working.

Corporations, for some reason, only get taxed on revenue - expenses.

[1] Whoop-dee-doo, I can claim a $3,800/year deduction. As if anyone in the United States can live on $3,800/year.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by mjevans on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:27PM (#18395484)
Particularly the rent - without stable jobs and actual career paths that are rewarding it doesn't make sense to actually buy a house in an area. As if it's possible to afford one near jobs in the first place.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by vkou on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:33PM (#18395519)
Even if I were to buy a house, most of my mortgage would not be deductible. Only the interest portion of it. None of my home maintenance expenses would be deductible, either. Neither are the ridiculous fees that get paid to the mortgage underwriter, the realtor, etc.

I'd love to only be taxed on 'profit' - the money that goes into my savings account, after deducting living and transportation expenses. [1]

[1] Actually, if everyone were taxed on profit, my tax burden would proportionately go up. It would be a fairer system of taxation, though.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by scatters on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @11:29AM (#18392437)
Corporations aren't consumers, so corporation tax is passed on: to customers, employees, or shareholders. Levying taxes via corporations disguises the true level of taxation.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by visarga on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @11:33AM (#18392482)
Depends, when the corporation is a multinational, then they can evade local taxes by various tricks and send all the profits outside the country. Thus it is necessary to close this loophole, to keep the tax money in the source country.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by slededit on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @12:29PM (#18393020)
In that case the economic efficient form of taxation is an expatriation tax.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by adrianN on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @12:38PM (#18393102)
How would that work in practice? The subsidiary in country A buys all their services from HQ with the price just so happening to consume the profits. How do you tax that without essentially stopping international collaboration?
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:31PM (#18394184)
That is the core of the problem. This is the only thing that people working on gafa tax evasion schemes should be working on day and night, and i’m pretty sure they’d get some help from the US tax department.

I can’t believe there aren’t ways to detect when a subsidiary buys services from HQ at abnormal prices.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by slededit on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @12:44PM (#18393165)
Tax agencies argue about the fair value of assets and services all the time. Companies are already forced to do this when estimating VAT among subsidiaries.

So while it is a problem, its not a new one - nor an unsolvable one.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by realusername on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:04AM (#18397949)
At some extreme point (like Starbucks for example) you can just declare it fraud and calculate an appropriate amount of tax they should pay and make them pay. Finance is the only legal area I know where we apply everything by the letter of the law and not the spirit of it, that concept did apply for torrent sites for example, if you only base it on technicality, they are legal.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by Isofarro on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:45PM (#18393754)
If US corporations hike their prices up to cover the tax, that would increase the competitiveness of local companies who have already been paying their fair share of tax. Perhaps that's the encouragement governments need to stimulate the local economy further.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bluecalm on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:14PM (#18394027)
Sounds like tariffs. If you want that - fine it makes sense. Just don't bully others to apply tax rate of your choosing on terms you want on business outside your country.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by joejerryronnie on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:09AM (#18397407)
Just about everything the EU does these days is blatant protectionism. This short sighted focus on punishing successful foreign competitors vs growing strong local companies just weakens Europe in the long run and exacerbates the very problem they are trying to solve.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:41PM (#18394259)
European union doesn’t let members decide on tarifs on their own borders.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by vinceguidry on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @12:29PM (#18393025)
Corporations absolutely are consumers, they buy stuff just like everyone else.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by kokey on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:58PM (#18394394)
Sales tax and income tax covers everything more efficiently in the right location. Sales tax takes place in the country where the products are sold, then that income to the company is distributed between staff and shareholders who pay income tax where they live and work. Corporation tax is some kind of tax on efficiency and usually in not in an optimal location for the benefit of society, either by accident or on purpose.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by rdm_blackhole on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:00PM (#18395270)
I agree with OP. I am French as well. I can confirm that for a French politician, any issue can be solved by adding a new tax. Tax for this, tax for that and whatever else.

They just have no clue about what to do so they try to tax it.

Well, guess what, people who actually want to achieve something productive, who want to make a good living, who want to start a company and not see our profits taxed again and again to feed a bunch of bureaucrats who have never even run a business before, those people they have already left and they are not coming back.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by ajnin on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:05PM (#18393360)
> how come all those companies HQ in europe are in ireland

Ireland has been busted (among others) for secretly passing sweet taxation deals with Google, Facebook, Amazon & co. According to you, that's the way to do it, right ? Tax race to the bottom, give deals to big player that no small company has hope to ever negociate, that's sure to bolster competitors. Any kind of attemp to level the playing field by applying tax uniformly on the European level is "sick".

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by purple_ducks on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:32PM (#18394190)
> Ireland has been busted (among others) for secretly passing sweet taxation deals with Google, Facebook, Amazon & co.

That is 100% uninformed nonsense.

If you are conflating it with Apple vs EU, you can read this primer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_illegal_State_aid_case_agai...

Nothing to do with a country offering a multinational a deal which results in a lower effective tax rate, and is something _EVERY_ country in Europe offers.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by briandear on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @04:43PM (#18395148)
Why should Ireland be able to determine the taxation policies of Ireland? The EU doesn’t set immigration law for Ireland does it? Why should it be allowed to dictate tax law? Low taxes can be a competitive advantage to fiscally responsible countries, why must the EU try to “fix” that?
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by Thiez on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:39PM (#18395568)
Because Ireland has signed treaties that restrict its actions? If they don't like the rules they can leave the EU. Sadly for them leaving the EU would also make them less interesting as a tax haven. Choices choices.

Also this is not just about 'taxation policies'. They are pretty free in their policies, except that they can't make exceptions for particular companies because such special deals give a company a competitive advantage, distorting the market.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by chopin on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:56AM (#18397911)
For sure the EU sets at least parts of the immigration law of Ireland. Every EU citizen is free to settle there. Even more, Ireland is a Schengen party, so any visa or legal immigrant of a Schengen member must be accepted to Ireland as well.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by jchb on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @08:22AM (#18398913)
> so any visa or legal immigrant of a Schengen member must be accepted to Ireland as well.

This is not true. Only those with a EU country citizenship are fully covered by the free movement rules. You can read more about it here: https://ec.europa.eu/immigration/general-information/already... but I will give you a quote: "To move from one EU country to another for more than 90 days, you will need a long-stay visa or a residence permit for that country. If you wish to work, study or join your family in the second country, you may have to fulfil more conditions."

An exception to this are so called Blue card holders, but only those with certain education/ professional experience plus job offer with a salary above a certain level are eligible for such a card.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @12:05PM (#18392793)
I'm from the US. You could just replace France with the name of my state in your comment and it would hold. We don't even have scooters yet and they're talking about passing regulation in case it becomes a thing. Some places are really used to using regulation to (attempt to) solve problems and when you've been swinging a hammer for the past several centuries it doesn't really matter whether the nails you think you're hitting are bolts because you forgot how to turn a wrench long ago.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by eiaoa on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:40PM (#18393698)
> We don't even have scooters yet and they're talking about passing regulation in case it becomes a thing.

That's a good thing, not a bad thing. It means your regulators are paying attention to events elsewhere and are trying to proactively prepare for them, rather than flailing about in reaction to complaints and problems. When the scooters come, your jurisdiction will be ready for them, rather than having to ban them just so they can catch up.

http://www.sfexaminer.com/companies-pull-scooters-off-sf-str...

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by leetcrew on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:15PM (#18395388)
making new laws to solve problems that don't actually exist yet is the opposite of what I would call a good thing. maybe this is a cultural difference between the US and Europe, but over here we tend prefer for the government not to swing its weight around until there is clear evidence of a problem.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by eiaoa on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:20PM (#18395762)
> making new laws to solve problems that don't actually exist yet

> but over here we tend prefer for the government not to swing its weight around until there is clear evidence of a problem.

There is clear evidence of a problem: SF banned scooters to give itself time to figure out how to regulate them: http://www.sfexaminer.com/companies-pull-scooters-off-sf-str.... There is no reason to think SF is particularly unique and that other municipalities won't have similar experience.

And even before SF banned scooters, there was clear evidence of problems with dockless rentals in China: sidewalks became bike parking lots with little room left for actual walking.

This idea that governments should only regulate if there's a manifested problem in their particular jurisdiction is pretty stupid, frankly. It's like saying you shouldn't make up your mind about crack cocaine before you've actually tried it and experience the problems it causes.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by ambicapter on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:18PM (#18394063)
So what you're saying is, we shouldn't use laws to fix things?
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by chiefalchemist on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:38PM (#18394708)
I don't think that's what's being said. (Perhaps I'm wrong.) The gist I'm getting is, just because you have a hammer doesn't mean everything is a nail. And that yesterday's nail might not be today's nail.

The prevailing issue being, politicians - under the false pretense that they paid to be "leaders" (read: look at me! look at what I can do!!) instead of problem solvers - grab their hammer and do what they already do...pound away.

How's that working out for us?

Note: I'm not suggesting a solution per se. Simply acknowledging that we have a problem, and the general nature of that problem.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by BalinKing on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @04:49PM (#18395183)
I don't think that's as unreasonable as you make it sound. Laws should not be the knee-jerk reaction to every problem; there are many who think they should be effectively be a last-resort measure (when there truly is no other alternative). Obviously, there is large political disagreement on this issue (viz: conservatives vs. liberals, to use American jargon).
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by flosim on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @12:46AM (#18397325)
I wouldn't qualify this as a knee-jerk reaction. I'm not saying it's not misguided in its current form. What I mean is that tax evasion in the EU is a well-known problem, and a fix is looooong overdue.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by mmirate on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @09:13PM (#18396664)
> Obviously, there is large political disagreement on this issue (viz: conservatives vs. liberals, to use American jargon).

There is not as much disagreement as it can sometimes seem, between those particular groups, as ID'ed using that jargon.

The American Conservatives and the American Liberals both think that laws should be the knee-jerk reaction to certain sets of problems. Their differences lie in which problems those are: by and large, the Conservatives say that those are the social problems, and the Liberals say that those are the economic problems.

But you are right, there are many who think they should be a last-resort measure in all-but-every case: the American jargon calls them Libertarians, and the American first-past-the-post voting system calls them personae non gratae.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by Natela on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:24PM (#18402537)
As a European I think this is a smart move on the contrary.

Google cannot get rid of the EU market, if it does, EU competitors might have a chance. So the EU can just tax Google as much as it wants. What are we to be afraid of ? Google leaving EU ? Please do ! This will only gives us a chance to come we our own solution to the web Google&FB think they invented.

I don't get how we could not be glad that we tax more those dystopian companies. Google, FB, etc... don't respect any values of privacy and freedom, they should not have even the right to do what they do in EU and GDPR is step in the right direction for that.

The only problem is that we have no weight if we don't act together, so if some European countries are too short-sighted and put their self little short term interest above the rest and prefer offer encourage Google's development, then yes we will fail.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by zilian on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @12:59PM (#18393309)
You totally underestimate the governement ability to understand things.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:56PM (#18394375)
They have a background, a history. They’ve spent the last 40 years adding layer upon layer of tax and subvention mechanism to try to regulate the economy while solving zero fundamental issues ( unemployment, industry, global private sector attractivness, education and recently even healthcare).

The only thing they’ve managed to do is to increase the cost of the public sector. So yes, indeed i don’t have any kind of trust in their ability to understand pretty much anything.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by sofixa on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:29PM (#18394652)
Are you aware that "the government" changes every ~5 years and the majority of recent French Presidents and their parliaments have been on different political spectrums? There is no "they". So what Sarkozy's government was doing was radically different than what Hollande tried to do in the first part of his mandate (he rolled back quickly when he saw it's not making anything better), and it's also different than what Macron is doing. At least the last one is actively trying to improve on tons of things, including what you're bitching about - regulations.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:53PM (#18394802)
Are you aware that every single high ranking french administration officer and policy maker for the last 50 years came from the same school ( including bruno lemaire), and that this school recruits almost nobody coming from the private sector ( although this is starting to change, but only very recently).

That’s the « they ». Everybody in the fifth republic believes that the state should regulate the economy, while having absolutely no personnal experience in the private sector. The only differences they have are on society issues, but from the economical point of view i have yet to witness one government that actually lowered the tax ratio ( just look at the CSG which was supposed to be temporary and 3% 25 years ago, and is now still alive and reaches more than 10%)

As for the efficiency of the public sector and the tax system look at france’s tax vs gdp ratio compared to other european country, as well as our ranking in education performance ( both young children school and university). Also have a look at unemployment rates, compared to other european countries.

Edit : to be fair, macron did come from the private sector ( just a few years though), and he did in fact remove a huge chunk of the ISF last year. That was a glimmer of hope. Also another reason why seeing France go back to its old habits makes me mad.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by flosim on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @12:42AM (#18397311)
1 - You seem to imply that for one to be a good "bureaucrat", one needs to have roots in the private sector. Can I just say that this is far from obvious for everybody? If anything, I'd be wary of those people as they pose a far greater risk of conflict of interests. I don't want to be run by lobbies, thank you. The recent story of M. Kohler, Macron's closest ally, makes me very wary. I won't say that all private bankers, CEOs and whatnot are the devil, because I am not a popullist know-it-all, but I do not trust them more just because they've worked in the private sector, as if it were some kind of holy virtue.

2 - I know a capitalist system that notoriously fails to redistribute wealth even though it's the richest economy in the world. Its ruling class seems to be keen on implementing those ultraliberal taxation ideas of yours. Sub-par healthcare and expensive education is the result. Then again, that is not a system that I think is worth emulating.

3 - As much as I appreciate politicians in general, I wouldn't be so immodest as to pretend that they're a bunch of stupid bureaucrats, meaning by that that I know how things work better than they do.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:04AM (#18397954)
Wow, so now not accepting taxes on revenue as something sound makes you « ultra liberal » ?

how fast things evolve...

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by flosim on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @10:59AM (#18399949)
This is the textbook definition, yes. At least in France's political jargon.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by arbitrary_name on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:33PM (#18394680)
This is idiotic. No one gets educated in France? You have no roads? No police? Nothing? It might not be optimal, but to decry the public service for achieving nothing is really wrong headed.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by realusername on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:05AM (#18397960)
> The only thing they’ve managed to do is to increase the cost of the public sector

The cost of the public sector has increased because of the large wave of privatizations, it's called the cost of capital.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by ionised on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @06:04AM (#18398379)
This is just getting into an ideological rant now.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by orcdork on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @12:46PM (#18393187)
Why shouldn't the bureaucracy be fed? These companies make money off of it.

I don't see any justification for your position besides a nebulous wish for Europe to have an equivalent of google/facebook, and to be honest, besides adding an extra line on all those "european unicorn" blog posts, i don't see much advantage to it either. There's obviously positives to more profitable businesses - but why another google/facebook?

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by toomuchtodo on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:04PM (#18393348)
> There's obviously positives to more profitable businesses - but why another google/facebook?

Some Europeans want in on the industrial surveillance tech complex profit machine.

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by user5994461 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:59PM (#18393899)
France has a competitor to Google and that's called Criteo, one of the biggest ad business in this continent.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:50PM (#18394332)
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by user5994461 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:08PM (#18394469)
It's not a search engine, it's only an ad business.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by bsaul on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:12PM (#18394499)
Indeed.

Criteo is « just an ad business » ( which is going to take a huge hit from all the privacy measures, btw). It’s extremely vulnerable compared to the company that own the content platform, aka the search engine, or the social network. Calling them a competitor to google is true, but it’s also a very narrow point of view.

Just look at how well it’s doing on the stock exchange and you’ll see what i mean,

Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by mr_toad on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:33PM (#18395828)
Google is an ad businesses. At this point their other products; search, Gmail, Android are all just loss-leaders.
Re:Three European Countries Block Tax on Tech Giants by walshemj on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @04:20PM (#18395011)
How do you feel about having to pay more tax because the big Amarican companies move profits of shore to avoid paying tax?