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Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by apatters on Monday November 05, 2018 @09:26AM (#18382484)
I'm American but I've lived overseas for nearly a decade, and I hardly ever go back.

In recent years when I meet other Americans who are visiting my city, I often get this vague feeling that they're just trying too hard in one way or another. Maybe they're working too hard, or trying too hard to impress someone, or get attention, or assert themselves. I don't know if I've changed or if America is changed or if it's something else entirely.

What I do wonder is, what's with all these Americans working themselves to the bone? I own an agency which is one of the types of businesses called out in this article. I tell all my employees very clearly, whenever possible, work 40 hours and then call it a week. We also happen to be mostly remote so I tell them, within reason, respecting a small number of important calls/meeting times etc. you can put in those hours whenever you want, preferably after a great night's sleep.

There's nothing like "you're measured by how many hours you bill out," nor does there need to be, if we have more than 40 hours of work per person per week, we hire more people.

Where does this all come from? This is an honest question. Why are people working themselves to death in the US and having this crazy mindset that doing stuff which puts you on the verge of a breakdown is good? When did this start?

Is it good for health/happiness? Definitely not

Is it good for productivity? Maybe, but I doubt it

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by rabidrat on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:21AM (#18382931)
I think we're all increasingly aware that our society and infrastructure are crumbling, and no matter how "rich" the country as a whole is, if you haven't built up your own security through wealth, you're [going to be] fucked. And that awareness translates into people being willing to overwork themselves, so they don't lose their spot in the rat race; and corporations with money to spend on workers are well-positioned to take advantage of that, and they do.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eiaoa on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:02AM (#18383348)
> I think we're all increasingly aware that our society and infrastructure are crumbling, and no matter how "rich" the country as a whole is, if you haven't built up your own security through wealth, you're [going to be] fucked. And that awareness translates into people being willing to overwork themselves, so they don't lose their spot in the rat race; and corporations with money to spend on workers are well-positioned to take advantage of that, and they do.

I disagree. That only makes sense if you assume you (and everyone like you) are politically powerless and the rot and decay are inevitable.

There's also another option: redirect that excess effort you're expediting to hoard for the failure into fixing the system before it fails. Your personal efforts to fix it might fail, but some other group that heeded the same call might succeed, and that's all it takes.

Hoarding wealth might seem like a safer bet, but it's just as prone to failure. The kind of wealth you could accumulate through hard work might not be enough to give you the security you want, and to get more you have to take big risks anyway.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by TeMPOraL on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:38PM (#18384194)
I'm afraid that without some systemic-level changes, donating less time to work and more towards infrastructure maintenance would only be giving free gifts to corporations and small entrepreneurs alike, who will be happy to put the improved infrastructure to use in making more money for themselves.

We need a way for improving things where, when a community improves its own space, the gains don't immediately get privatized.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by Regardsyjc on Monday November 05, 2018 @01:23PM (#18384589)
I think one of the biggest public infrastructure issues in the United States is the lack of equal education. The education system of the USA is not fair and inherently unequal when schools are funded from the taxes of its local communities.

Other public infrastructure issues could be lack of cheap, affordable internet access, clean water, and health care.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by robocat on Monday November 05, 2018 @03:46PM (#18385809)
Even when there is some subsidising towards educating children that are unfortunate enough to have poor parents, you still end up with very unequal outcomes.

Go down to Figure 53 of this: http://www.nzchildren.co.nz which shows only 1/3 of the poorest 20% attain a high enough level of education to even enter university, while 3/4 of the richest 20% do (the relation is fairly linear for the rest).

Financing the education of children with poor parents helps, it just doesn't equalise on average. Of course it does help a few outlier children a lot.

In NZ we add extra subsidies to schools with poor parents through a system of deciles - but it doesn't offset the difference that much.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eiaoa on Monday November 05, 2018 @03:56PM (#18385887)
> Even when there is some subsidising towards educating children that are unfortunate enough to have poor parents, you still end up with very unequal outcomes.

I think the idea with funding education more equitably is to remove existing barriers that are created by policy, not about creating totally equal outcomes.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eiaoa on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:53PM (#18384327)
I think we're on the same page. I interpreted "infrastructure" primarily to be social and political infrastructure, not physical infrastructure. Fixing it would undoubtedly need to include greater resistance to exploitation by powerful private interests.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by TeMPOraL on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:04PM (#18386394)
I think this conclusion really works for both physical and social infrastructure. It's cool to work on either, but it's cooler if you don't feel like being an unpaid volunteer in someone else's business.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by mattnewton on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:09AM (#18383410)
When participating in the system of the US, wealth and job security are extremely useful. It may be rational to think “I will have more impact working to the bone and then donating/volunteering, than I would if I worked less and volunteered more”
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eiaoa on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:20AM (#18383508)
> When participating in the system of the US, wealth and job security are extremely useful. It may be rational to think “I will have more impact working to the bone and then donating/volunteering, than I would if I worked less and volunteered more”

I think that's the trap: you can't work yourself to the bone then have energy to work more to be active in your community, volunteer, run for office, pester politicians with letters, etc. Those are the kind of activities that I think could avoid the decay and perhaps even lead to some improvement.

I think it's a mistake to view "donating money" as meaningful response to many current social problems. Many of them are caused or propped up by people with more money than you could ever dream of having. Thinking that mere donations can win is like thinking a group insurgents could win in a stand-up direct fight against the US Army. The insurgents have different advantages than the US Army, and if they're smart, they'll use them rather than futilely attempting to reach parity with the US Army's strengths.

There's definitely some minimum amount of donations that will be required to really change things, but at a certain point I think the returns diminish.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by michaelt on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:57PM (#18384365)

  I think it's a mistake to view "donating" as
  meaningful response to many current social problems.
It probably depends on what problem you hope to solve, and what the other activities you're considering are.

A guy on minimum wage can ladle out soup at a soup kitchen every bit as well as I can.

But can he convince my elected representatives that I care about soup kitchens? Or make soup kitchen users into my personal friends? Not so much.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eeZah7Ux on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:32PM (#18385169)
Countless social revolutions started from people who had the time to get socially engaged e.g. students and academics.

Keeping people busy with real or artificial work is extremely common in dictatorships.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by why_only_15 on Monday November 05, 2018 @03:30PM (#18385671)
Could you give an example of this - a society with a dictatorship that endeavors to give people artificial work?
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by aigen001 on Monday November 05, 2018 @04:10PM (#18386011)
http://i.imgur.com/3q0xAJv.jpg

Not sure if this counts but this image of a soldier mopping in the rain comes to mind.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by potta_coffee on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:33PM (#18387323)
That looks like a Marine and this kind of pointless punishment is common in the corps. The more pointless, the better. (Think, digging a hole and filling it back up again, repeatedly.)
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by Nasrudith on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:55PM (#18386766)
There was also the old age of sail "anti-idleness" laws which also had issues of believing their own lies and causation correlations that it caused crime and sin. There are plenty of what are now clearly goddamned moronic social theories then in the 15th to 19th centuries - and it sadly isn't an exclusive to then and ones of modern vintage exist as well. They honestly thought people drinking until they pass out in the bar was socially preferable to walking around town.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by rnd0 on Monday November 05, 2018 @03:56PM (#18385881)
Stalin's five year plans, Pol Pot and Moa's Cultural revolution immediately spring to mind. The ancient Roman practice of having Soldiers work on construction projects (eg Hadrian's Wall) between battles is a similar idea (though to keep them from looting, not plotting revolution).
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eeZah7Ux on Monday November 05, 2018 @06:34PM (#18386976)
As well as fascism in Italy and nazism.

They all disliked unemployed people and often forced them into work or in the military, loathed artists and writers that were able to work independently. They glorified "work for work's sake".

Created work artificially through gargantuan public works, bureaucracy and... war - the ultimate instrument to keep people busy and give them a common purpose.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by jimbokun on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:38PM (#18385227)
I think we have to do both, to hedge our bets, at this point.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by phillc73 on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:00AM (#18383324)
> if you haven't built up your own security through wealth, you're [going to be] fucked.

Another approach is to build security through self sufficiency and community based initiatives. For example, growing your own food wherever possible, or community gardens on common land.

There is a long list of examples and ideas where future security, defining that as decent quality of life, health and education, doesn't need to be based around monetary wealth.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by kazinator on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:23AM (#18383544)
Modern society relies on mass scale agriculture which cannot be replaced by community gardens. If everyone had to meet their nutritional needs with a community garden that is within walking distance of where they live, we basically couldn't have cities.

Growing your own food is work; where is the retirement plan? What if you're not able? Even if you are, many people want to do things other than farming when they retire.

It feels like the ultimate defeat: what have I achieved in this lifetime of work, when I'm reduced to land-to-mouth existence, like an ancestor tens of thousands of years before me? Where is the progress?

Theft is a problem in community gardens. If you just grow enough to sustain yourself and someone steals your produce, you're back to fucked.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by jniedrauer on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:06PM (#18384960)
I really don't think this is viable. I grew up on a mostly self sustaining farm. I've seen how inefficient and unpredictable it is at small scale.

There are simply too many of us to revert back to an agrarian society. We have to create food at a very large scale. Which means we have to become better at sharing it.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by noonespecial on Monday November 05, 2018 @04:23PM (#18386097)
It doesn't matter how many cucumbers you can grow in your back yard or how good you are at fixing your 69 Ford when the heart meds you need to live are $600/month.

Like it or not we're all in it together and we're doing kind of a sucky job of it right now.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by jimbokun on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:37PM (#18385214)
Almost no one in the US has a problem with getting enough food. Maybe substandard nutrition, but no one is going to starve.

Healthcare and education are areas where a common option could make a major difference in people's lives. But I think the "community" has to be pretty large to make a meaningful impact.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by Hydraulix989 on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:53PM (#18385364)
This may be true in socially progressive areas such as Silicon Valley, but it is far from the case anywhere else.

Hunger is further down Maslow's pyramid. You can't even begin thinking about things like education until you are able to adequately eat.

http://map.feedingamerica.org

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by robhunter on Monday November 05, 2018 @04:45PM (#18386266)
About 15% of the US population is "food-insecure" as defined by the USFDA. That's 40,000,000 people.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by Celarnor on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:05PM (#18387142)
Since the recession, the US' food insecurity numbers still haven't recovered to their pre-recession values. A disturbingly non-zero number of families have no idea when their next meal will be or where it is coming from.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by dwaltrip on Monday November 05, 2018 @04:50PM (#18386297)
Society is crumbling...? I'm pretty sure the data doesn't back that up.

We face many problems, to be sure, but this is nothing new.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by rabidrat on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:31PM (#18386585)
It doesn't matter what the data says, the feeling that our society is crumbling is palpable, and that is what drives this overwork. People my age (40s) and younger do not believe that our institutions will be able to support us in our old age and retirement. We do not even believe that the earth's ecosystems will be able to support us (as a group) then. In 30 years, we as individuals better have resources accumulated to support ourselves, or we will be unable to afford basics like healthcare, shelter, and even food.

For that matter, many of my non-tech friends (in their 40s) are already only one health crisis away from being homeless. I only have two couches and they all can't stay with me. I am doing relatively well and even I feel the pressure to overwork and "make hay while the sun shines", so maybe I can help support them when they need it.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by ChuckMcM on Monday November 05, 2018 @06:48PM (#18387048)
This is a really interesting statement:

It doesn't matter what the data says, the feeling that our society is crumbling is palpable, and that is what drives this overwork.

There is an interesting conflict of interest buried in there, "someone" who is benefiting from your work figures out that if you "believe" that society is crumbling, you will work harder (which generates them more benefit), and so they arrange it so that in spite of the data to the contrary you are left feeling that society is crumbling.

Even the most intelligent and rational person will take action against their own self interest if they believe that such action is necessary. You can see that principle in action all too often today as people get caught up in a conspiracy theory and then decide to take action on their own.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by blitmap on Friday November 09, 2018 @09:16AM (#18414464)
I certainly agree that it's in the best interest of those at the top to make the rest of us believe retirement won't be there, and we must work-work-work to save-save-save.

However:

1) I have seen it become commonplace to have several generations of a family living in the same house.

2) I have seen my grandparents struggle to afford prescriptions even with 2 pensions and social security.

3) I have seen a sibling fall into poverty despite making bi-weekly efforts to establish an emergency fund. A totaled car was all it took despite full coverage.

4) I have been a part of the crowd commuting 4+ hours round-trip a day to jobs they can't move closer to.

It definitely feels as though institutions are failing us. I don't think social security will fail, but I do think they'll move the goal post on when we can retire.

There are conspiracies and there's anecdote..

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by zamber on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:44PM (#18386689)
I'm waiting for a massive exodus of US citizens to Europe for healthcare.

Also the perceived society crumbling is self-imposed. Raging culture wars, terrorism as an excuse for totalitarian paranoia, freely accessible firearms, school shootings, obesity epidemic, trade tariffs, monopolistic corporations lobbying for laws, ecological disasters.

Frankly, I'm happy with my European backwater if the cost of getting off well after WW2 would be the list above. No wonder the US collectively is stressed out to the extreme.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by mcculley on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:00PM (#18387112)
It's not just healthcare. I often get into discussions about our ridiculous gun situation. Often, I am told by advocates for the status quo that if I don't like it, I should leave. Maybe I will take that advice. What happens to a community when all of the people who want to improve it who have the means to emigrate give up and leave?
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by Aperson4321 on Monday November 05, 2018 @09:25PM (#18387840)
Middle East
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by coryrc on Monday November 05, 2018 @09:26PM (#18387844)
Detroit
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by nkoren on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:51PM (#18387416)
I emigrated from America to the UK. Healthcare is the number one thing that would make me trepidatious about moving back, far ahead of the gun violence and even the general political lunacy.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by illegalsmile on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @12:04PM (#18392779)
Healthcare is insane here. I have a relatively good health insurance but a trip to the ER (no ambulance) for abdominal pains still cost me $1600 out of pocket. I questioned going to the ER and tried to wait as long as I could but figured if I have insurance then I might as well use what I have. I should have waited longer. I fully understand why under-insured people will avoid going to the doctor or ER until it's either life-threatening or too late. Sometimes I think it would be better just to get the cheapest insurance and build up the emergency fund more.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by umichguy on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @12:15AM (#18438779)
Another U.S. to UK transplant here. I thought the UK was bit better than the U.S. in terms of general divide and political nonsense. After Brexit, not so much.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by nkoren on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:03PM (#18387125)
If you are a young person in America, it is. Unless you were born into the top 10th percentile of wealthy households, you are pretty much guaranteed to grow up to be poorer than your parents, and you know it. This is something new for America, and the sense of desperation it creates is the young is, for once, entirely legitimate.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eecsninja on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @04:24AM (#18389490)
This is key. It's not that you're going to be third-world-country poor, it's that regardless of what you do, you won't experience the same economic benefits for the effort that you put in, compared to 30 years ago.

This is true for people all across the board: blue-collar workers, office workers, and doctors.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by bicubic on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:31PM (#18388388)
For societies that crumble, the data is always retrospective. Organisations and societies are entities where people tend to pretend (believe, even) that everything is okay or at least everything is manageable during catastrophic events, until the day that illusion can't be maintained anymore.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by TomMckenny on Monday November 05, 2018 @04:26PM (#18386118)
With esentially no exceptions, people don't overwork themselves their whole lives for society, they do so for themselves or their kids.

When they don't get a commensurate benefit form extra work, they won't do it. If there are societies sliding downward it is because they are extracting too much wealth from the people who produce it. Among other things, just eliminating rent seeking would be a boon.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by PavlovsCat on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:57AM (#18383295)
That's tragic, since the "rat race" is kind of the reason why society and infrastructure are crumbling.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by robertfw on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:43PM (#18384233)
I think the rat race is a symptom, not a cause
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by PavlovsCat on Monday November 05, 2018 @01:26PM (#18384607)
What would you say is the cause?
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by marnett on Monday November 05, 2018 @01:49PM (#18384803)
Many would say globalized, unfettered capitalism.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eeZah7Ux on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:23PM (#18385099)
This is the "appeal to worse problems" fallacy.

Given that the US is wealthier than most of Europe and yet people work much longer hours with little worker protection, people could could demand much better.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by wpietri on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:37PM (#18385212)
Yup. The intense self-focus and zero-sum mentality in that line of thinking ignores that a more collaborative approach can get better results for everybody.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by rabidrat on Monday November 05, 2018 @03:20PM (#18385567)
I agree that it can get better results. But I'm not sure if you've noticed that the political party-in-power in the US is actively against collaborative approaches. I'd love to cooperate and win-win for everyone, but at some point you have to acknowledge that it's going to take a larger effort than is currently available.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by wpietri on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:48PM (#18386720)
I think you're confusing the current condition of the federal government with America as a whole. At state and local levels, there are plenty of examples of more collaborative thinking. And a great deal of what happens in any country happens with little relation to the government. We can always collaborate as individuals.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by djpr on Monday November 05, 2018 @09:40AM (#18382598)
I'm curious, where do you work now and who are your clients? I worked in Asia and the work culture with the Chinese (mainlanders) and those of Chinese-descent (Chinese Malaysians, Chinese Singaporean) was more challenging than working with Americans.

When I was in advertising, stories of people working and staying (as in sleeping over) during the weekends was not uncommon. Clients would call me at 11pm asking for a concall with my staff. 12 hours a day for weeks on end, including working weekends, were common place.

We were able to hire great talent just by promising that we'd never ask our staff to work weekends and hardly ever after 7pm on a workday. We had mostly US clients so that was an easy thing for us to day.

This culture shifted a bit when stories of young agency people in Hong Kong and other Asian cities dying from exhaustion became a big deal 4-5 years ago. But its still very workaholic culture.

Don't get me wrong, Americans work insane hours compared to Indonesians or the French, but parts of Asia is a whole other level of madness.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by apatters on Monday November 05, 2018 @09:51AM (#18382663)
I'm in Thailand and our customers are almost all in the US. Some Thai companies have a pretty grueling culture, six days a week, little/no vacation, etc.

Our customers don't try to micromanage as long as we're getting results. I think our approach to work just comes down to me setting the tone. I was very lucky to have a teacher all the way back in elementary school who drilled the "Work smarter, not harder" mentality into my head from an early age.

And I've maintained 100% ownership of my company, therefore I exert the main influence over the culture. The way we do things works so I have no desire to change it.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by ghostbrainalpha on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:46PM (#18384259)
They are lucky to have you, but how does "work smarter, not harder" work for competitors who aren't as smart as you?

If you can't compete with others at school, in the workplace, or as a business based on intellectual superiority the gap has to be made up somewhere. Usually that leads to hard work and then a vicious cycle.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by apatters on Monday November 05, 2018 @01:56PM (#18384865)
That's an interesting question. I'm not sure this is a satisfactory answer, but I think what we do isn't really enabled by superior intellect as much as it is by a focus on good process and introspection.

In other words it comes down to good management -- this is just my pet theory, but as a ruminating introvert, when I did live and work in the US I felt that I witnessed a lot of extroverts get promoted into positions of authority because they were popular, and proceed to make poor decisions.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by Nasrudith on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:03PM (#18387124)
The point of that statement is usually doing the efficient thing instead of just working hard because the end results are what really matter. Why use a brush for broad areas when a paint roller can get the job done quicker?
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by coupdejarnac on Monday November 05, 2018 @09:12PM (#18387794)
I didn't know it was possible to have a 100% foreign owned business in Thailand. Is that a new development, or is the business in your SO's name?
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by esotericn on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:25AM (#18383561)
I don't see this as being unique to the US.

It's pretty similar in London (UK), for example.

Here, it's about the fact that most people are hilariously, almost comically underpaid.

The cheapest 1 bedroom flat I can find within an hour of the centre is going to be in the ballpark of 200K.

So if you don't have established wealth, or earn at least 50K (4x mortgage), you're a prole.

Unsurprisingly, people don't want to be proles, so they work their bollocks off to get out of that category.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by guitarbill on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:51AM (#18383793)
London is a special kind of hell. Of course, you can have a meaningful and fulfilled life outside of London, but maybe unsurprisingly for a city built on finance (in the modern area?), it attracts people who can only think of money, not cost. Or, for those less driven, maybe moving to London is the equivalent of going to uni, you do it because everybody else is and you don't have a better plan. IDK, I didn't get it and still don't.

For Americans, I imagine NYC or LA is similar. The traffic alone would keep me out of LA.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by neuromantik8086 on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:54PM (#18384333)
It's a bit different in the U.S. in the sense that, whereas in Britain and France most mid-sized cities have decent public transit and municipal services, in the U.S. only a handful large urban centers have these kinds of things.

For example, in Clermont-Ferrand, which is roughly to Paris what Albany is in NYC, there is a well-established tram system that can get you to many places you'd want to go to without a car. This is especially essential if you're low income. Albany in contrast, just has buses (the CDTA), and pretty crap buses at that. The only other city in New York State with anything even remotely approaching the utility of the subway system is the light rail system in Buffalo, which is mostly useless since it only comprises one marginally useful line.

Believe me, as someone not involved in finance in NYC, if I could get the same services I get here in a mid-sized city like Pittsburgh, Cincinnati or Buffalo, I'd strongly consider relocation.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by esotericn on Monday November 05, 2018 @01:07PM (#18384461)
> in Britain [...] most mid-sized cities have decent public transit

Strongly disagree with this. It might be better than the US, but to call it "decent" I think is a bit of a stretch.

Most journeys, in most cities, will be 3x faster by car or more. The exception is usually rush hour commuting into the city centre.

In my hometown for example the buses used to run on a 20 minute timetable in the middle of the day. I could cycle or drive into the city before the bus even arrived.

Inner city London is the exception. In the suburbs public transport is mostly useful for going in to Central London.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by walshemj on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:01PM (#18387115)
Agree I have 2 busses an hour in a commuter village near London no busses after 6:35 PM and a whole 3 busses on Sunday.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by mitchdoogle on Monday November 05, 2018 @04:34PM (#18386198)
Is public transport really a driving factor for your decision on where to live? If it is, I just can't see it being a common factor for others. Most Americans I know are happy to drive if they can, and begrudgingly take public transport only when they have to (or when the cost and/or time savings is overwhelmingly in support of public transport, as it is in much of NYC). I would have to agree with the post above yours, that there is a drive among young people to live in large urban centers, if only to be nearer to culture, despite only being consumers of that culture. I can understand that drive, but it is far from the most financially responsible choice of residence for a large majority of people.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by logifail on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:08PM (#18383913)
>> "Comically underpaid"

Underpaid compared to what? To what they might earn elsewhere? To the cost of buying a house or flat?

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by esotericn on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:15PM (#18383977)
Compared to the amount required to not want to spend most of their time grinding to acquire a decent life.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by logifail on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:24AM (#18389272)
We're missing any kind of definition for "a decent life" (or indeed "grinding" for that matter).

I live in an region where the population density is at least 50 times less than that of greater London. We have few Michelin-starred restaurants, a distinct lack of opera houses, and no top-ranked universities. I'm not bothered in the slightest.

Living in London (or NYC, or the Bay Area) is, just like so many other things in life, a choice.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by omosubi on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:48PM (#18384277)
To the amount of wealth they are generating for the place they work perhaps?
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by walshemj on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:02PM (#18387117)
the USA there is a reason FANG companies like London
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by walshemj on Monday November 05, 2018 @06:59PM (#18387105)
Well UK advertising and publishing have relied on being able to recruit cheaply the best Oxbridge firsts for decades.

Of course now the industry is digital there are a lot of people out of water and don't really get the internet an di am talking about people decades younger than me.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by blitmap on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:17AM (#18382899)
Anecdotal:

1) Working 40 hours a week does not support my long-term goals (house fund, retirement, vacations, etc). Which is another way of saying my job doesn't pay enough.

2) Companies will gladly have someone perform the work of 3 people and replace them when they burn out. It is rarely in the budget to increase staff with additional work (hah).

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by HeyLaughingBoy on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:21AM (#18383523)
Equally anecdotal: when I found myself in this position 20 years ago, my response was to move to a lower COL part of the country that still had plenty of tech jobs (Upper Midwest).

I only wish I had done it even sooner!

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by walshemj on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:07PM (#18387157)
Advertising/publishing isn't tech pay is a lot worse
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by kromem on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:10PM (#18386436)
Here's the secret: it's total BS.

"Hustle" is almost always BS. And real hustle is a red flag. If people can't get what needs to get done within predefined work hours, it's either a reflection of incompetency or poor time management.

I worked at one of the ad holding companies mentioned for a few years, and the magic behind the curtain is that there's no magic behind the curtain.

Agencies by and large blow smoke up the clients' behinds as a matter of standard practice. And the clients typically know this (though I'm not sure they know the full extent of it), but put up with it because the work they are engaging an agency for makes more sense to outsource to the agencies, and since all agencies are posturing, they simply pick who they think BS'ed best (as if that's a reflection of what will actually get done).

When I was there, it was all about BSing digital competency and foresight. Everyone was trying to claim a better finger on the pulse of change. Now that change has somewhat slowed down (no major hardware upsets in the past few or next few years), it makes sense to start behaving more like a commoditized service and trying to brand oneself as offering greater efficiency than one's counterparts.

Which is why if I was still in the industry today, my pitch deck would probably include a slide about how you won't hear us talking about "hustle" because it should only be necessary if you're not optimizing your work day (and including out of country examples of functioning companies working even less than standard hours and doing great work, and numbers about productivity tanking as hours go up). "So you could pick a 'hustle' agency, but are they spending their 'productive' hours on you, or are they billing you for those extra hours operating at lower efficiency? If you see an agency claiming to 'hustle', personally we'd suggest hustling in the other direction ASAP."

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by wpietri on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:34PM (#18385189)
A historian I'm fond of, Walter McDougall, is writing a trilogy of American history books where a key theme is how the notion of "hustle" is central to what America is. For him, though, the word's dual American meanings of "work hard/move quickly" and "mislead/scam" are closely joined.

I think he's right. So many of these companies that value hustle are up to something ethically suspect. But if you go fast enough and apply enough pressure, nobody really has time to stop and say, "Wait, are we doing the right thing here?"

So although it'd definitely bad for worker health and generally also harms productivity, I think it's great for the profitability of whoever's at the top. And also for sweeping any ethical questions under the rug until after their pockets are filled.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by munificent on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:50PM (#18384304)
> What I do wonder is, what's with all these Americans working themselves to the bone?

It's what happens when economic inequality increases continuously for decades. The slope of the line between the haves and the have-nots gets steeper and slipperier every year. Every year, the bottom end of that line gets ever more grim.

When there are fewer jobs to go around, fewer safety nets for people who can't find jobs, and being unemployed means losing health insurance and possibly dying, yeah, people are gonna hustle. It's awful.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by ryandrake on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:30AM (#18383007)
> What I do wonder is, what's with all these Americans working themselves to the bone?

Intense competition among labor and companies’ willingness and ability to squeeze value out of employees.

Life is not getting any cheaper, but there is a perpetually larger and larger supply of labor willing to do your job for less. Employers are very efficient at capturing that value, so if you want to keep your job from someone willing to be paid N% less, you need to be N% more productive. The most visible proxy for doing that is to work longer hours. Or, be willing to work for less and work multiple jobs. Lots of people do that too.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by PavlovsCat on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:56AM (#18383273)
When meaning and agency get steadily stripped away, or are even thrown away gladly, until all that remains are metrics that pretend to fill the hole but never really do, the hamster wheel efficiency goes up by a gazillion percent.

A phrase by John Cleese in another context comes to mind: "operating at a very, very low level of mental health." Most people would find that offensive if they heard it head on, but then complain they're not happy in the same breath. But it should be considered an opportunity, "unhealthy" can also be another word for "a lot of untapped potential".

http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/multimedia/video/2008/wallace/from...

> For instance, what would you say is happening to man, American man, in relationship to his work?

> FROMM: I think his work is to a large extent, meaningless, because he is not related to it. He is increasingly part of a big machinery, social machinery, governed by a big bureaucracy......and I think American man unconsciously hates his work very often, because he feels trapped by it...imprisoned by it... because he feels that he is spending most of his energy for something which has no meaning in itself.

I would say people don't really breed well in captivity, and that's it. Even people who consciously want it, who are so broken they embrace captivity, are not exempt. They die in some way or other, sooner or later, in one generation or another, sometimes by creating the catastrophe that kills them. Maybe the additional "complexity" is really just invented by a.) prison wards and b.) prisoners who don't dare to meet their gaze, for obvious reasons in either case.

> There is a goal, but no way; but what we call a way is hesitation.

-- Franz Kafka

We have too many yes, but's. They kill the soul, and then the body leads a derpy life.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by petra on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:36AM (#18383671)
>> I think his work is to a large extent, meaningless,

So create your own meaning. tell your own story. What's wrong with "i take in a job that feed me and my coworkers" for meaning ?

As for autonomy - that's different.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by PavlovsCat on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:15PM (#18383976)
> As for autonomy - that's different.

Different as in separate from meaning? I disagree.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by petra on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:42PM (#18384232)
I feel like we have a misunderstanding. for me:

Autonomy = the level of freedom of choosing your own actions , under the constraint that your goal must be met.

Meaning = knowing your work has some positive value, which means you can tell yourself(maybe subconsciously) that you are useful, which increases your motivation.

Example : a doctor that is forced to use an expert-system to guide him, would feel a lot less autonomy,even though he may understand that he's more useful to his patients - i.e. ,a lot of meaning.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by PavlovsCat on Monday November 05, 2018 @01:19PM (#18384560)
You also need autonomy to choose your own meaning.

> Example : a doctor that is forced to use an expert-system to guide him, would feel a lot less autonomy,even though he may understand that he's more useful to his patients - i.e. ,a lot of meaning.

Then why would they be "forced"? Either it makes their work easier/better or it doesn't, where does the force come in?

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by Nasrudith on Monday November 05, 2018 @06:58PM (#18387099)
Insurance rates for one or if it is sufficient enough not doing so being malpractice.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by PavlovsCat on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:38AM (#18390075)
Let's take throwing rocks from a highway bridge. I would never want to do such a thing, so knowing that I would get punished for it doesn't curtail my autonomy. I don't feel "forced" by those laws to not do it, since my own volition comes first. I think about the example of the doctor the same way.

Autonomy doesn't just mean being able to do random things and not being subject to thermodynamics and gravity and everything, in the context of a human being's will to live, it simply has to do with being subject to the will of another human being, and the reasons for that.

As Hannah Arendt said in an interview:

> The whole of Kants morality boils down to the fact that every human has to consider if each of their actions could be general law. This means.. it's the the extreme opposite of obedience, so to speak! Everybody is lawgiver. No human has the right to obey according to Kant. [..] We obey in this sense, as long as we are children, because it is necessary. There obedience is a very important thing. But this should end at the latest at age fourteen or fifteen.

In that sense, I would also make a distinction between discipline and coercion. E.g. choosing (and keeping to reflect on and affirming) even the most rigid principles and living by them is not a reduction, but an expression of autonomy. If you are your own captor -- and you're aware of it, and it's a voluntary choice, rather than a rationalization like like with drug addiction or mental problems -- then you're not really a prisoner.

When I work on something I love, I sometimes work my ass off. I could never ever work this hard on command, outside of a slave camp with actual guns pointed at me. There is simply no way. But when I'm in "in the zone"? I love it, because there isn't just pressure, there is also grip that translate it into motion in a direction that fulfills me.

The same goes for helping people or doing chores that I agree need to be done. E.g. once I and people from an FB group helped clean the flat of a woman who was lethally scared of an upcoming landlord inspection.. and so ashamed of the state of her flat that she actually wasn't even there while we did it. I cleaned nicotine stains from surfaces with baking soda for two days and it felt good then, and still feels good thinking back on it. According to her best friend who had organized the thing she broke out in tears of joy when she saw the result. If I had to do it for money for someone who then complains about the result, it would have been degrading. Same work, different context, completely different result. Extend that to a lifespan and it's really no wonder.

I think people can't care deeply about things they don't have some kind of ownership of, and doing things we don't or can't care deeply about makes us sick. Which is good, because it also means doing things we care about makes us happy, so let's do that :D

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by jt2190 on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:22AM (#18382938)
I suspect your data set is skewed toward those with higher disposable incomes who can travel abroad versus those who are content to live more modestly.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by apatters on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:28PM (#18384100)
Excellent point
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by analog31 on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:01PM (#18387113)
Americans live with the awareness of two issues. First, we are one crisis away from poverty unless we can build up our own safety net in the form of wealth. Second, the most successful people tend to have grown up in households where they could count on a family safety net. The mere presence of wealth is beneficial to our children by letting them take more risks.

This drives people who are not independently wealthy, to try and build that wealth in excess of what they might actually need for survival, and even for a happy life.

Is it good for productivity? I measure my productivity in terms of what I produce for my family.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by johnchristopher on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:42AM (#18383136)
> Where does this all come from? This is an honest question. Why are people working themselves to death in the US and having this crazy mindset that doing stuff which puts you on the verge of a breakdown is good? When did this start?

I believe it all started when the Church of Pavlina opened and easy access to personal development blog fueled by Ferris and others. The ubermensch was promoted. At the same time Amazon and Facebook showed that you could make it big or be a slave so.. fear of doom and american success stories à la "you too can do it if you want" ?

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by helipad on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:08AM (#18383406)
Isn't Tim Ferriss' belief the opposite of overworking? I thought that was the whole point of the 4-hour Work Week.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by vinceguidry on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:15PM (#18383970)
The Four Hour workweek is a dream reached either by working really really really hard to build a business, or by basically strong-arming your employer into letting you work while you're relaxing on a beach.

It's all right there in his book, but like anything that inspires people, most people read what they want to read and not the actual words on the page.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by Regardsyjc on Monday November 05, 2018 @01:27PM (#18384614)
I think the key lesson in the 4 hour work week and skill you need to be a successful entrepreneur or capitalist is delegation and outsourcing. You need to learn how to scale yourself and your processes by hiring others and profiting from their labor. That's the key to the 4 hour work week and capitalism. You're not going to get the crazy results everybody wants until you learn how to build, hire a team, and profit off their hard work.

The secret to this is that this doesn't require capital at all. You don't need anything to learn how to arbitrage, money, goods, or time.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by AznHisoka on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:26PM (#18388080)
Where is the capital to pay the people you hire?
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by Regardsyjc on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:33PM (#18388398)
My partner worked as a developer to someone who served as a middle man. People would give the middle man tech projects and he'd split them up between developers he knew and profit. I think Steve Jobs actually did this when they wrote a game for Atari.

People do this all the time with 14 day invoices etc. You have to be a little creative and very skilled but it's possible to make something out of nothing because you're providing value- especially when you get paid up front with a deposit.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by johnchristopher on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:36AM (#18383666)
That's the theory. But isn't the premise that by working 8 hours a day à la Ferris you'd end up working 10 times more than the others in the rat race ? (at least that's the vibe I got back then).

It's still about being super efficient though (4 super efficient hours a week. Let's be honest anybody who could do that would do it more than once a week).

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by yitianjian on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:03AM (#18383354)
Hey - I've never really heard about the "Church of Pavlina", and Google isn't really forthcoming. Do you mind explaining what you mean a bit?
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by johnchristopher on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:31AM (#18383610)
Sure (sorry about being cryptic).

Steve Pavlina is one of the first superstar of the online self-help world (dating back to 2004 or 2006). It started with an article on a famous website for programmers (can't remember the name atm) about how he dig really deep with his first game and so others were playing catching up but he was raking in a steady monthly income (see where we are going and who would be interested ?).

Then he started his personnal weblog (yeah, we used to call'em weblog in my days) about self help and how he experimented with polyphasic sleep (sleeping 3 or 4 hours a days in twenty minutes increment, see the kind of folks that would bite that bait ?). So far, so good.

Then he went full crazy with psychic powers like talking to bird, being a telepath, reality shaping (aka the secret), etc.

His article were 10 or 12 A4 pages long (wonder how that goes nowadays) and it was kind of mesmerizing to see all that happening in real time (I admit I got first intrigued with his time management article and I kept reading for the crazy).

There was a funny experiment with polyamory and it ended with a divorce.

See http://edificial.blogspot.com/2006/08/church-of-steve-pavlin... for the church of pavlina and https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Steve_Pavlina for links and stuff.

Of course they guy was kinda successful (financially).

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by vinceguidry on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:19PM (#18384015)
His forums were a pure gold mine of fun. There was the same kind of diverse mix of people you'd see on a huge site like 4chan or Reddit, but it still felt really intimate. Like the Tucker Max forum but not quite as hyper-masculine.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by varjag on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:57AM (#18383845)
The overwork culture certainly predates blogs.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by HeyLaughingBoy on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:22AM (#18383533)
Steve Pavlina is/was a programmer turned motivational(?) speaker.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by wnevets on Monday November 05, 2018 @01:01PM (#18384404)
>Where does this all come from? This is an honest question. Why are people working themselves to death in the US and having this crazy mindset that doing stuff which puts you on the verge of a breakdown is good? When did this start?

Americans have been convinced (largely by republicans) that the reason so many americans are struggling financially is because they're lazy and stupid. One of the side effects of this is people being proud of working non stop as proof that they're not lazy and stupid like everyone else.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by BonesJustice on Monday November 05, 2018 @01:08PM (#18384464)
Consequently, any time someone proposes something that will improve the lives of every working American, a disturbing number of us respond along the lines of, "Hey, I work my ass off, and I've had to suffer over ____, so everyone else should have to suffer at least as much." As opposed to, say, "Hey, I've had to deal with ____, and it sucks. Let's fix it so none of us have to deal with this anymore."
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by JustSomeNobody on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:03PM (#18384932)
Oh! I see you've been listening to Mitch McConnell! Yeah, that man HATES the poor and lower middle class.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by HaHa31 on Monday November 05, 2018 @03:01PM (#18385424)
The historical component for this work ethic is frequently tied to Protestantism, especially Puritanism. Work was divinely mandated, and shirking that responsibility was socially unacceptable. Work was also more necessary, as not working hard enough could led to the death of your community. Just my two cents
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by JustSomeNobody on Monday November 05, 2018 @01:58PM (#18384891)
MBA's are trained to wring every ounce of productivity from employees by working them more than 40 hours (because working late is a badge of honor!) while letting them know that, yet again, there are no raises coming and they need to take one for the team and we all need to tighten our belts and blah blah.

And yet, American workers still hold fast to the dream that if they just work harder, they'll be more successful.

That dream doesn't exist. The nightmare that does is that workers are continuing to work for less and less each year.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by TACIXAT on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:36PM (#18384175)
Some people enjoy doing more. I work at work, then I work at home on side projects. This does not have to mean I am dying from overwork. It is the same for exercise, am I trying to impress people or get attention? I don't think so, I'm pretty sure I just like doing pull ups. By all means, do what makes you happy, if you want to check out after 40 hours, that is fine. However, don't project your attitude to work on other people. It can be perfectly healthy and enjoyable to work your ass off.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by badpun on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:47AM (#18390125)
Maybe it's the Internet? It's filled with success porn (exceptional people giving talks, streaming while they work etc.), as well as ordinary people giving each other pep talks (for example, gamedev subreddit is full of people telling you should be making games in addition to your full time job).
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by jbob2000 on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:29AM (#18382996)
The US (and by greater extent, the western world) praises individualism - “do it yourself or it won’t get done right” is a common theme. I think this is a driving force behind overwork.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by criddell on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:44AM (#18383730)
I think it might be more like "do it yourself or it won't get done".

It wasn't that long ago when agriculture was a very big employer. I have a lot of farmers in my family and basically, if the sun is up, they are working. When something needs to be done, they DIY-it mostly because that's all they can afford.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by amelius on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:16PM (#18385051)
Passion, or workaholism?

Or perhaps it's because a single income isn't sufficient anymore to support a household, and people without a partner still need to pay rent/mortgage.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by Nasrudith on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:45PM (#18386695)
I think insecurity is a driver for it. Fear that if they work just 40 hours they'll get replaced with somebody working 50. Not to mention some cases of sociopathic "sacrifice mentality" where they think if they aren't extracting as much as possible they are leaving money on the table even when both productivity and cost are the opposite with turnover. People living paycheck to paycheck excaberates it.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by helij on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:44PM (#18387378)
Sounds like a great place to work. Are you hiring? :)
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by egypturnash on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:29AM (#18383594)
It comes from the long-running anti-union propaganda campaigns put on by corporations. It comes from deregulation, which comes from politicians wholly bought and paid for by corporations. It comes from years of flat minimum wage alongside constant inflation. It comes from years and years of decisions about what a business can do to a worker that almost all come down in favor of infinite rights for the business and none for the worker, because the businesses are the ones who can hire the fancy lawyers to spin tangled webs of justifications resting on previous bad decisions or willful misreadings of the letter of existing law.

I am sitting in a hotel bed as I write this, killing time before leaving to catch a plane home. Yesterday I extended my stay by a day; I noticed the front desk clerk was wearing a union button, and complimented him on it. When he mentioned their contract is up for re-negotiation at the end of the month, I wished the union the best of luck in getting a fair chunk of the profits they’re making for the owners. It felt great to be able to say things like that.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by kazen44 on Monday November 05, 2018 @03:06PM (#18385466)
the fact that unions/left wing politics have very little political representation in the US is also fairly astounding.

How is it possible that a political ideology which should appeal to the bottom 50% of the workforce has no representation?