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Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by rabidrat on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:21AM (#18382931)
I think we're all increasingly aware that our society and infrastructure are crumbling, and no matter how "rich" the country as a whole is, if you haven't built up your own security through wealth, you're [going to be] fucked. And that awareness translates into people being willing to overwork themselves, so they don't lose their spot in the rat race; and corporations with money to spend on workers are well-positioned to take advantage of that, and they do.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eiaoa on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:02AM (#18383348)
> I think we're all increasingly aware that our society and infrastructure are crumbling, and no matter how "rich" the country as a whole is, if you haven't built up your own security through wealth, you're [going to be] fucked. And that awareness translates into people being willing to overwork themselves, so they don't lose their spot in the rat race; and corporations with money to spend on workers are well-positioned to take advantage of that, and they do.

I disagree. That only makes sense if you assume you (and everyone like you) are politically powerless and the rot and decay are inevitable.

There's also another option: redirect that excess effort you're expediting to hoard for the failure into fixing the system before it fails. Your personal efforts to fix it might fail, but some other group that heeded the same call might succeed, and that's all it takes.

Hoarding wealth might seem like a safer bet, but it's just as prone to failure. The kind of wealth you could accumulate through hard work might not be enough to give you the security you want, and to get more you have to take big risks anyway.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by TeMPOraL on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:38PM (#18384194)
I'm afraid that without some systemic-level changes, donating less time to work and more towards infrastructure maintenance would only be giving free gifts to corporations and small entrepreneurs alike, who will be happy to put the improved infrastructure to use in making more money for themselves.

We need a way for improving things where, when a community improves its own space, the gains don't immediately get privatized.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by Regardsyjc on Monday November 05, 2018 @01:23PM (#18384589)
I think one of the biggest public infrastructure issues in the United States is the lack of equal education. The education system of the USA is not fair and inherently unequal when schools are funded from the taxes of its local communities.

Other public infrastructure issues could be lack of cheap, affordable internet access, clean water, and health care.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by robocat on Monday November 05, 2018 @03:46PM (#18385809)
Even when there is some subsidising towards educating children that are unfortunate enough to have poor parents, you still end up with very unequal outcomes.

Go down to Figure 53 of this: http://www.nzchildren.co.nz which shows only 1/3 of the poorest 20% attain a high enough level of education to even enter university, while 3/4 of the richest 20% do (the relation is fairly linear for the rest).

Financing the education of children with poor parents helps, it just doesn't equalise on average. Of course it does help a few outlier children a lot.

In NZ we add extra subsidies to schools with poor parents through a system of deciles - but it doesn't offset the difference that much.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eiaoa on Monday November 05, 2018 @03:56PM (#18385887)
> Even when there is some subsidising towards educating children that are unfortunate enough to have poor parents, you still end up with very unequal outcomes.

I think the idea with funding education more equitably is to remove existing barriers that are created by policy, not about creating totally equal outcomes.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eiaoa on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:53PM (#18384327)
I think we're on the same page. I interpreted "infrastructure" primarily to be social and political infrastructure, not physical infrastructure. Fixing it would undoubtedly need to include greater resistance to exploitation by powerful private interests.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by TeMPOraL on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:04PM (#18386394)
I think this conclusion really works for both physical and social infrastructure. It's cool to work on either, but it's cooler if you don't feel like being an unpaid volunteer in someone else's business.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by mattnewton on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:09AM (#18383410)
When participating in the system of the US, wealth and job security are extremely useful. It may be rational to think “I will have more impact working to the bone and then donating/volunteering, than I would if I worked less and volunteered more”
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eiaoa on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:20AM (#18383508)
> When participating in the system of the US, wealth and job security are extremely useful. It may be rational to think “I will have more impact working to the bone and then donating/volunteering, than I would if I worked less and volunteered more”

I think that's the trap: you can't work yourself to the bone then have energy to work more to be active in your community, volunteer, run for office, pester politicians with letters, etc. Those are the kind of activities that I think could avoid the decay and perhaps even lead to some improvement.

I think it's a mistake to view "donating money" as meaningful response to many current social problems. Many of them are caused or propped up by people with more money than you could ever dream of having. Thinking that mere donations can win is like thinking a group insurgents could win in a stand-up direct fight against the US Army. The insurgents have different advantages than the US Army, and if they're smart, they'll use them rather than futilely attempting to reach parity with the US Army's strengths.

There's definitely some minimum amount of donations that will be required to really change things, but at a certain point I think the returns diminish.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by michaelt on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:57PM (#18384365)

  I think it's a mistake to view "donating" as
  meaningful response to many current social problems.
It probably depends on what problem you hope to solve, and what the other activities you're considering are.

A guy on minimum wage can ladle out soup at a soup kitchen every bit as well as I can.

But can he convince my elected representatives that I care about soup kitchens? Or make soup kitchen users into my personal friends? Not so much.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eeZah7Ux on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:32PM (#18385169)
Countless social revolutions started from people who had the time to get socially engaged e.g. students and academics.

Keeping people busy with real or artificial work is extremely common in dictatorships.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by why_only_15 on Monday November 05, 2018 @03:30PM (#18385671)
Could you give an example of this - a society with a dictatorship that endeavors to give people artificial work?
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by aigen001 on Monday November 05, 2018 @04:10PM (#18386011)
http://i.imgur.com/3q0xAJv.jpg

Not sure if this counts but this image of a soldier mopping in the rain comes to mind.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by potta_coffee on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:33PM (#18387323)
That looks like a Marine and this kind of pointless punishment is common in the corps. The more pointless, the better. (Think, digging a hole and filling it back up again, repeatedly.)
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by Nasrudith on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:55PM (#18386766)
There was also the old age of sail "anti-idleness" laws which also had issues of believing their own lies and causation correlations that it caused crime and sin. There are plenty of what are now clearly goddamned moronic social theories then in the 15th to 19th centuries - and it sadly isn't an exclusive to then and ones of modern vintage exist as well. They honestly thought people drinking until they pass out in the bar was socially preferable to walking around town.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by rnd0 on Monday November 05, 2018 @03:56PM (#18385881)
Stalin's five year plans, Pol Pot and Moa's Cultural revolution immediately spring to mind. The ancient Roman practice of having Soldiers work on construction projects (eg Hadrian's Wall) between battles is a similar idea (though to keep them from looting, not plotting revolution).
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eeZah7Ux on Monday November 05, 2018 @06:34PM (#18386976)
As well as fascism in Italy and nazism.

They all disliked unemployed people and often forced them into work or in the military, loathed artists and writers that were able to work independently. They glorified "work for work's sake".

Created work artificially through gargantuan public works, bureaucracy and... war - the ultimate instrument to keep people busy and give them a common purpose.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by jimbokun on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:38PM (#18385227)
I think we have to do both, to hedge our bets, at this point.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by phillc73 on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:00AM (#18383324)
> if you haven't built up your own security through wealth, you're [going to be] fucked.

Another approach is to build security through self sufficiency and community based initiatives. For example, growing your own food wherever possible, or community gardens on common land.

There is a long list of examples and ideas where future security, defining that as decent quality of life, health and education, doesn't need to be based around monetary wealth.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by kazinator on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:23AM (#18383544)
Modern society relies on mass scale agriculture which cannot be replaced by community gardens. If everyone had to meet their nutritional needs with a community garden that is within walking distance of where they live, we basically couldn't have cities.

Growing your own food is work; where is the retirement plan? What if you're not able? Even if you are, many people want to do things other than farming when they retire.

It feels like the ultimate defeat: what have I achieved in this lifetime of work, when I'm reduced to land-to-mouth existence, like an ancestor tens of thousands of years before me? Where is the progress?

Theft is a problem in community gardens. If you just grow enough to sustain yourself and someone steals your produce, you're back to fucked.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by jniedrauer on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:06PM (#18384960)
I really don't think this is viable. I grew up on a mostly self sustaining farm. I've seen how inefficient and unpredictable it is at small scale.

There are simply too many of us to revert back to an agrarian society. We have to create food at a very large scale. Which means we have to become better at sharing it.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by noonespecial on Monday November 05, 2018 @04:23PM (#18386097)
It doesn't matter how many cucumbers you can grow in your back yard or how good you are at fixing your 69 Ford when the heart meds you need to live are $600/month.

Like it or not we're all in it together and we're doing kind of a sucky job of it right now.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by jimbokun on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:37PM (#18385214)
Almost no one in the US has a problem with getting enough food. Maybe substandard nutrition, but no one is going to starve.

Healthcare and education are areas where a common option could make a major difference in people's lives. But I think the "community" has to be pretty large to make a meaningful impact.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by Hydraulix989 on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:53PM (#18385364)
This may be true in socially progressive areas such as Silicon Valley, but it is far from the case anywhere else.

Hunger is further down Maslow's pyramid. You can't even begin thinking about things like education until you are able to adequately eat.

http://map.feedingamerica.org

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by robhunter on Monday November 05, 2018 @04:45PM (#18386266)
About 15% of the US population is "food-insecure" as defined by the USFDA. That's 40,000,000 people.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by Celarnor on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:05PM (#18387142)
Since the recession, the US' food insecurity numbers still haven't recovered to their pre-recession values. A disturbingly non-zero number of families have no idea when their next meal will be or where it is coming from.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by dwaltrip on Monday November 05, 2018 @04:50PM (#18386297)
Society is crumbling...? I'm pretty sure the data doesn't back that up.

We face many problems, to be sure, but this is nothing new.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by rabidrat on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:31PM (#18386585)
It doesn't matter what the data says, the feeling that our society is crumbling is palpable, and that is what drives this overwork. People my age (40s) and younger do not believe that our institutions will be able to support us in our old age and retirement. We do not even believe that the earth's ecosystems will be able to support us (as a group) then. In 30 years, we as individuals better have resources accumulated to support ourselves, or we will be unable to afford basics like healthcare, shelter, and even food.

For that matter, many of my non-tech friends (in their 40s) are already only one health crisis away from being homeless. I only have two couches and they all can't stay with me. I am doing relatively well and even I feel the pressure to overwork and "make hay while the sun shines", so maybe I can help support them when they need it.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by ChuckMcM on Monday November 05, 2018 @06:48PM (#18387048)
This is a really interesting statement:

It doesn't matter what the data says, the feeling that our society is crumbling is palpable, and that is what drives this overwork.

There is an interesting conflict of interest buried in there, "someone" who is benefiting from your work figures out that if you "believe" that society is crumbling, you will work harder (which generates them more benefit), and so they arrange it so that in spite of the data to the contrary you are left feeling that society is crumbling.

Even the most intelligent and rational person will take action against their own self interest if they believe that such action is necessary. You can see that principle in action all too often today as people get caught up in a conspiracy theory and then decide to take action on their own.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by blitmap on Friday November 09, 2018 @09:16AM (#18414464)
I certainly agree that it's in the best interest of those at the top to make the rest of us believe retirement won't be there, and we must work-work-work to save-save-save.

However:

1) I have seen it become commonplace to have several generations of a family living in the same house.

2) I have seen my grandparents struggle to afford prescriptions even with 2 pensions and social security.

3) I have seen a sibling fall into poverty despite making bi-weekly efforts to establish an emergency fund. A totaled car was all it took despite full coverage.

4) I have been a part of the crowd commuting 4+ hours round-trip a day to jobs they can't move closer to.

It definitely feels as though institutions are failing us. I don't think social security will fail, but I do think they'll move the goal post on when we can retire.

There are conspiracies and there's anecdote..

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by zamber on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:44PM (#18386689)
I'm waiting for a massive exodus of US citizens to Europe for healthcare.

Also the perceived society crumbling is self-imposed. Raging culture wars, terrorism as an excuse for totalitarian paranoia, freely accessible firearms, school shootings, obesity epidemic, trade tariffs, monopolistic corporations lobbying for laws, ecological disasters.

Frankly, I'm happy with my European backwater if the cost of getting off well after WW2 would be the list above. No wonder the US collectively is stressed out to the extreme.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by mcculley on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:00PM (#18387112)
It's not just healthcare. I often get into discussions about our ridiculous gun situation. Often, I am told by advocates for the status quo that if I don't like it, I should leave. Maybe I will take that advice. What happens to a community when all of the people who want to improve it who have the means to emigrate give up and leave?
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by Aperson4321 on Monday November 05, 2018 @09:25PM (#18387840)
Middle East
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by coryrc on Monday November 05, 2018 @09:26PM (#18387844)
Detroit
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by nkoren on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:51PM (#18387416)
I emigrated from America to the UK. Healthcare is the number one thing that would make me trepidatious about moving back, far ahead of the gun violence and even the general political lunacy.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by illegalsmile on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @12:04PM (#18392779)
Healthcare is insane here. I have a relatively good health insurance but a trip to the ER (no ambulance) for abdominal pains still cost me $1600 out of pocket. I questioned going to the ER and tried to wait as long as I could but figured if I have insurance then I might as well use what I have. I should have waited longer. I fully understand why under-insured people will avoid going to the doctor or ER until it's either life-threatening or too late. Sometimes I think it would be better just to get the cheapest insurance and build up the emergency fund more.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by umichguy on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @12:15AM (#18438779)
Another U.S. to UK transplant here. I thought the UK was bit better than the U.S. in terms of general divide and political nonsense. After Brexit, not so much.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by nkoren on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:03PM (#18387125)
If you are a young person in America, it is. Unless you were born into the top 10th percentile of wealthy households, you are pretty much guaranteed to grow up to be poorer than your parents, and you know it. This is something new for America, and the sense of desperation it creates is the young is, for once, entirely legitimate.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eecsninja on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @04:24AM (#18389490)
This is key. It's not that you're going to be third-world-country poor, it's that regardless of what you do, you won't experience the same economic benefits for the effort that you put in, compared to 30 years ago.

This is true for people all across the board: blue-collar workers, office workers, and doctors.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by bicubic on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:31PM (#18388388)
For societies that crumble, the data is always retrospective. Organisations and societies are entities where people tend to pretend (believe, even) that everything is okay or at least everything is manageable during catastrophic events, until the day that illusion can't be maintained anymore.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by TomMckenny on Monday November 05, 2018 @04:26PM (#18386118)
With esentially no exceptions, people don't overwork themselves their whole lives for society, they do so for themselves or their kids.

When they don't get a commensurate benefit form extra work, they won't do it. If there are societies sliding downward it is because they are extracting too much wealth from the people who produce it. Among other things, just eliminating rent seeking would be a boon.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by PavlovsCat on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:57AM (#18383295)
That's tragic, since the "rat race" is kind of the reason why society and infrastructure are crumbling.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by robertfw on Monday November 05, 2018 @12:43PM (#18384233)
I think the rat race is a symptom, not a cause
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by PavlovsCat on Monday November 05, 2018 @01:26PM (#18384607)
What would you say is the cause?
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by marnett on Monday November 05, 2018 @01:49PM (#18384803)
Many would say globalized, unfettered capitalism.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by eeZah7Ux on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:23PM (#18385099)
This is the "appeal to worse problems" fallacy.

Given that the US is wealthier than most of Europe and yet people work much longer hours with little worker protection, people could could demand much better.

Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by wpietri on Monday November 05, 2018 @02:37PM (#18385212)
Yup. The intense self-focus and zero-sum mentality in that line of thinking ignores that a more collaborative approach can get better results for everybody.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by rabidrat on Monday November 05, 2018 @03:20PM (#18385567)
I agree that it can get better results. But I'm not sure if you've noticed that the political party-in-power in the US is actively against collaborative approaches. I'd love to cooperate and win-win for everyone, but at some point you have to acknowledge that it's going to take a larger effort than is currently available.
Re:How hustle culture took over advertising by wpietri on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:48PM (#18386720)
I think you're confusing the current condition of the federal government with America as a whole. At state and local levels, there are plenty of examples of more collaborative thinking. And a great deal of what happens in any country happens with little relation to the government. We can always collaborate as individuals.