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Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by richliss on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:28PM (#17988559)
I'd switched to a OnePlus a few years ago and was delighted by the performance/cost.

In the last few years the combined privacy invasion from:

1. Google at the very heart of Android (and even Cyanogen/LineageOS with DNS, Google Play Services etc.) and everything I do on the phone. 2. OnePlus with sending data and telemetry back to China and being caught out multiple times after saying they respect the user. 3. Facebook with asking for/getting insane levels of permissions from Android for their apps.

Has made me realise that Apple are the only option for anyone who cares about privacy and wants some simplicity.

Sure I'd love for the ello (/e/) project to eventually take off and provide a real solution but in the meantime and for now Apple aren't showing any signs of wanting to (or needing to) exploit/sell my personal data.

I'm degooglifying as much as possible and my tech friends are too after the recent scandals. Google's a company we will look back on in 50 years as being a blight on freedom.

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by elborro on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:11PM (#17989985)
Sadly also Apple collects data on their users. Last year around 300TB a day on what users search for, which apps they use, how many times, where you click and navigate through the OS and in the apps, etc. :(
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by mkolodny on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:55PM (#17990391)
Apple, along with Google and other companies, gives the government access to pretty much all of our data: https://www.theverge.com/2013/6/6/4403868/nsa-fbi-mine-data-...
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by kyrra on Friday September 14, 2018 @09:54PM (#17992521)
As far as I'm aware, none of those companies knowingly gave that information over to the NSA. In Google's example, the NSA had tapped their inter-datacenter fiber lines to steal the data. That's why all inter-datacenter traffic at Google is always encrypted now.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by mrtksn on Friday September 14, 2018 @04:20PM (#17990605)
Yep, that's why our data is a liability for them, thus they are trying to collect as less as possible.

Which, is also the main argument of the OP for preferring Apple.

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by mkolodny on Friday September 14, 2018 @07:15PM (#17991852)
Apple gives the government a backdoor into your iPhone. So I'd argue that you don't have privacy when you use an iPhone, period. Same goes for any smartphone, really.

I'd guess that Apple really collects less data because they want to preserve your battery life, not your privacy.

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by clay_the_ripper on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:30PM (#17992844)
Please provide a source or don’t post unsubstantiated comments.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by mkolodny on Saturday September 15, 2018 @02:42AM (#17993296)
That comment was based on the title of the article I linked to above: "Secret program gives NSA, FBI backdoor access to Apple, Google, Facebook, Microsoft data".

I assumed that PRISM data came from a "backdoor" it had to iPhones. There's no proof that PRISM data didn't come from a backdoor to iPhones. But there's no proof it did come from a backdoor either. So I'll take back that comment.

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by mkolodny on Saturday September 15, 2018 @12:19AM (#17992960)
"Snowden: FBI Saying It Can't Unlock iPhone is 'Bullsh'"

http://fortune.com/2016/03/09/snowden-fbi-apple-iphone/

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by asimpletune on Friday September 14, 2018 @09:24PM (#17992422)
Sorry, how has Apple given the gov’t a backdoor?
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by Operyl on Friday September 14, 2018 @09:57PM (#17992528)
Sources? I hear this way too often.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by lev99 on Friday September 14, 2018 @09:27PM (#17992431)
Source?
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by garmaine on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:15PM (#17990029)
Important questions:

1. Do they share this data with people?

2. Is this data anonymized?

3. Is this data directly monetized, or otherwise give incentives to violate user privacy?

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by grier on Friday September 14, 2018 @05:26PM (#17991106)
I'd argue that other questions around how the data is:

- handled

- available for access by employees

- retained, deleted, and stored

etc.. are at least as important for your privacy.

As someone who works in security, I am as concerned or more about the seemingly inevitable breach's impact on my privacy.

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by fucking_tragedy on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:28PM (#17990147)
Apple is a business like any other, all it will take is for the right financial incentives for them to engage in data sharing if they don't already.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by jernfrost on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:33PM (#17990193)
There is a financial incentive to NOT share data because there is a demand in the market for privacy. Apple can pursue this market because they charge for hardware. Google had no way of making money on privacy because they don’t sell a physical product.

So it is simple: Apple has a choice. Google doesn’t.

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by fucking_tragedy on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:58PM (#17990423)
> There is a financial incentive to NOT share data because there is a demand in the market for privacy

Where? I can't identify a single non-tech-oriented person in my life who makes phone purchasing decisions based off of vague notions like privacy.

In fact, I'd say that the market does not demand privacy, it is ambivalent to it. I don't agree with ambivalence, but I also don't see consumers making privacy-minded purchases, either.

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by cm2187 on Friday September 14, 2018 @05:37PM (#17991178)
As long as the money is flowing in. I don't think people will be buying $1500 smartphones in a recession.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by scarface74 on Friday September 14, 2018 @07:55PM (#17992031)
Few people in America pay full price for the phone. All of the carriers offer zero percent interest payment plans as does Apple. Yes I know it’s paying the full price but psychologically, most people only care about the monthly amount.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by bryanrasmussen on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:33PM (#17990188)
Sure, but what do you think those incentives could probably be for a company that makes its living based not on data collection but selling physical products whose 'best product is now privacy' according to the post, and who are more profitable than anyone else?
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by fucking_tragedy on Friday September 14, 2018 @04:02PM (#17990476)
Profit, pure and simple. Just because they're profitable, does not mean they will not seek other avenues of revenue. I won't pretend to be able to predict the future, but markets shift, and should Apple find themselves in less favorable position than the one they're in today, I'd have a hard time believing they wouldn't sell user data.

Google was once the "don't be evil" company.

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by mitch3x3 on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:15PM (#17990026)
This is something all businesses do. The issue is whether or not they sell that information.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by shawnz on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:23PM (#17990100)
Why is that "the issue"? There are many other problems with excessive telemetry besides data being sold to third parties. Besides, both Google and Apple claim that they don't sell telemetry data to third parties, so how is that aspect of the issue even relevant here?
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by yalogin on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:30PM (#17990163)
Well, ok but Apple also

- does not use that data to sell stuff to you.

- don't have a reason to profile you and store those profiles constantly updated.

- don't have a reason to "follow" you across the web everywhere you go to update that profile.

Just having that profile on you makes a company a liability. C you trust a company that makes money solely based on the information they collect about you to make decisions that benefit you? or your privacy and security?

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by Cyph0n on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:28PM (#17990151)
Well, the question I always ask is who has more to gain (financially) from selling user telemetry: Apple or Google?
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by bryanrasmussen on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:30PM (#17990169)
Any third party that would pay google enough for the data would probably be seen by Alphabet as a company ripe for disruption.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by starsinspace on Friday September 14, 2018 @05:59PM (#17991351)
Do you have a source for this?
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by jpttsn on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:13PM (#17990009)
I’d love to learn more
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by beefield on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:20PM (#17989044)
> Facebook with asking for/getting insane levels of permissions from Android for their apps.

Why then use the app in the first place? I mean, the mobile sites of fb are pretty much functional to me. (Admittably, I am happy to have no notifications on my phone outside sms and calls)

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by shmageggy on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:35PM (#17989168)
They've been progressively gimping the mobile site for a while. Now you can't use messenger from the mobile site, for zero good reason as far as I can tell. They just want to force people into using the app where they can harvest more data.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by sixstringtheory on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:41PM (#17989207)
mbasic.facebook.com still has messenger built in and doesnt take ages to load
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by rakoo on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:52PM (#17989284)
Thanks so much. I've been using m.facebook.com but they removed the messenger from there. I've been using messenger lite because it doesn't require as many permissions and is just so much lighter to use, but it lacks one of the most important things to me: gifs
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by parthdesai on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:26PM (#17990131)
privacy, battery life and ram >>> gifs.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by reaperducer on Friday September 14, 2018 @02:10PM (#17989440)
In my experience, m.facebook.com and mbasic.facebook.com return far less content than the full web page. And mbasic gets the least.

There have been times when mbasic has shown me two items, and that's it. Switching to m returned more. But only going to the full www showed me everything going on.

So now I restrict myself to using Facebook just one day a week. It's not as good as cutting Facebook off entirely, but it at least reduces some of its data gathering on me.

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by dwighttk on Friday September 14, 2018 @06:19PM (#17991511)
You might do it on a big computer if you have one. I keep Facebook in a fluid instance on my Mac. About 3 times in the past few years I’ve wished I had my login on my phone to get an address for an event or something, but haven’t gone there since I can remember. I don’t really use messenger though.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by rapnie on Friday September 14, 2018 @02:21PM (#17989535)
Google (YouTube, Search) and LinkedIn are doing that too. Especially if you are also using FireFox. Subtle differences in functionality, things missing here and there. Still I am opting for the web versions with my privacy settings and Privacy Badger, etc. LinkedIn app has a builtin Chromium browser that you can't control and may have custom code additions.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by gnicholas on Friday September 14, 2018 @04:43PM (#17990774)
You can still go to m.facebook.com and then request desktop version to get access to messenger. But this is annoying, and most people aren’t aware of workaround like this.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by slow_donkey on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:40PM (#17989194)
I regularly use the mobile site messenger - you have to request a desktop site with m.facebook and the overlay won't show.

I suspect it'd be trivial to remove the overlay with CSS.

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by PascLeRasc on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:46PM (#17989248)
Have you tried Messenger Lite? I don't know about privacy implications of having it alone on your phone, no other FB apps, but it's quite good.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by LeifCarrotson on Friday September 14, 2018 @02:38PM (#17989690)
I don't have a Facebook account. But the app is bundled with my 'unlocked' LG G5, and there's no option in the Play store to uninstall it. Only "update", which I refuse to do.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by richliss on Monday September 17, 2018 @02:10AM (#18003590)
I ended up not using the app but I know lots of non-tech people who are unaware and so carry on. That for me isn't great.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by bossx on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:52PM (#17989292)
+1 and even better: http://mbasic.facebook.com loads extremely fast and includes messenger.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by rqs on Friday September 14, 2018 @09:54PM (#17992519)
However, the most Apple's system is close sourced, meaning if they want to do something, you're still defenseless. There are no Eden now, you need to protect yourself.

People's will towards privacy is still weak, they don't know what those company could do with that amount of data. Ignorant, that's why those company keep doing what they do.

It's just like running a restaurant, as long as people can't see disgusting thing in their food, then everything will be fine and dandy, no matter how unhygienic the kitchen was.

Sad.

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by chakalakasp on Friday September 14, 2018 @10:49PM (#17992696)
Most good stuff is closed source now. It is what it is.

It boils down to trust. Do you trust Google? Do you trust Apple?

I trust Google to care very much about security. I also trust that they are gathering as much information as they can about me. Even as a paid customer. It’s baked into their business model.

I trust Apple to care very much about security. I also trust that they fundamentally believe in privacy and are not gathering large swaths of data about me, and are doing what they can to keep others from doing so if I play in their garden. It’s baked into their business model.

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by rqs on Saturday September 15, 2018 @12:09AM (#17992941)
> It boils down to trust. Do you trust Google? Do you trust Apple?

Why don't boil down even further? How comfortable you are when you put your own security on other people's hand? Do you trust others will protect you no matter what? Do you trust others will completely be honest with you no matter what?

I don't know about you, but for me, I always trying to figure out the detail of the thing that will be rely on, even it's just a door alarm. Only after that, I can then tell whether or not I trust it.

If I understand you correctly, I can say that your "trust" is actually a form of trade off: I want to use the awesome __________ Phone, so I can ______________. For that, I could take some shit from __________ as long as they don't ______________.

However, that just means you've convinced yourself to trust something, hardly anything else.

And speak of "business model", many company was cool and awesome when it's young. Things change.

So, if it's a question: Do you trust Google? Do you trust Apple? Both no. I kept my file encrypted when uploading to Google Drive, and I don't use iCloud at all. I have 16 different Google accounts and 3 Apple accounts, each for different things, and I replace most of then every two years (Or when Google start to ask me for my phone number).

My advise: Don't dip yourself into that situation when you have to make a choice like that.

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by clay_the_ripper on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:44PM (#17992874)
To me it boils down to this. At some level, there is a point where you have to trust people/companies. I don’t have time to spend researching and installing custom software to protect privacy. I fully understand that there are people here who have the time to devote to that or want to spend time doing that, but it’s not practical for most people to really spend much time on it.

So, given that I have to trust someone (and for 99% of people on the planet this is also true) I choose to trust Apple.

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by at-fates-hands on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:16PM (#17990041)
I did the same and now I'm feeling the same way.

Currently I'm running with an MS Lumia 950 and when necessary, I'll switch back to Android. I've completely removed all my social media apps on both phones.

The most recent reason I needed to switch back to my OnePlus 2 was because my hockey manager now uses Venmo to accept payment for the upcoming season. I was pissed when I found out Venmo won't allow you to process payments from your desktop account anymore. You are forced to download and install the Android app, and then send money that way.

It just feels so invasive. I felt like they were saying, "We can't get the data we want on your PC, so we'll force you to download and install the app, and in the process, give us the permissions we want to get to your data.

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by fbis251 on Friday September 14, 2018 @08:27PM (#17992173)
Can you expand on the Lineage OS DNS issues?
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by richliss on Monday September 17, 2018 @02:14AM (#18003603)
I'd read previously that Lineage's DNS is hardwired into Google's DNS due to Google tying their DNS into pretty much everything.

Check out the comments here: https://www.xda-developers.com/e-google-free-lineageos-fork-...

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by anotherelise on Friday September 14, 2018 @05:39PM (#17991194)
There's at least one other company trying to provide a solution https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by pasta on Friday September 14, 2018 @02:49PM (#17989800)
Sony + Sailfish OS could also be an option since support for Sailfish is official.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by adamduren on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:48PM (#17989260)
Have you checked out Facebook Lite and Messenger Lite? I haven't looked into it much but it's possible they request less permissions as the app is built to have limited functionalities.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by erythpplerainbw on Friday September 14, 2018 @02:12PM (#17989457)
for anyone mentioning Facebook Lite & Messenger Lite: stop, stop using them right away, the 2 apps enable all permissions without asking (because Android is saying it needs to enable all for old apps, WHAT?) also on Android, you can't share a photo to Facebook Messenger without granting at least Storage permission or Photo permission (which is not the case on Instagram)
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by amaccuish on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:19PM (#17990067)
oh wow, thanks for that!
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by briandear on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:57PM (#17989328)
It’s still feeding Facebook the company and ultimately rewarding privacy-unfriendly business models.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by urza on Saturday September 15, 2018 @12:41PM (#17994924)
Apple might offer better privacy than Google or Facebook now, but it can change easily because privacy is not their core product.

I have high hopes for Librem 5 where privacy of user is the core product of the company.

https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/

Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by ece on Saturday September 15, 2018 @06:15PM (#17996277)
You're not free until you're libre.
Re:Apple's best product is now privacy by dredmorbius on Saturday September 15, 2018 @02:40AM (#17993291)
Purism and Tuxedo Computers are two otions for mobile, laptop, and desktop systems without preinstalled surveillance capitalism.

https://puri.sm

https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en

(No association.)