If there's 20 people going to a party, does anyone think the "start time" is really when you're supposed to be there? I think of it more as "don't come before this time".

Depends on the culture. Historically if you told a German 5:00, that meant 5:00 - nor 4:59, not 5:01. "Fashionably late" is an American thing.

I arrived at about 16:55 to a party in Denmark, having overdone my effort not to be late. The hosts didn't mind, they were amused that I'd made the effort to not be 15 minutes late.

I was then amused to see all the other (Danish) guests arrive within 2 minutes of each other.

I just don't understand how this works at a house party.

You invite 20 people over for a BBQ at 2pm. Here's possible conversations I can envision in America:

"Thanks for the invite! I actually have a haircut appointment at 2, but I'll come right after"

or

"Thanks for the invite, but I have a a haircut appointment at 2..." "what? No worries! Come join whenever you can; we want to see you!" "Great. I will thanks!"

So how would it go in Germany?

"Sorry, I am busy and can't make it"

This doesn't happen. People are just applying stereotypes to every possible context and situation. Germans are perfectly capable of coming to a BBQ later than the scheduled start time, although it's true that unless it's impossible for them to make their schedule fit with yours, if you tell them 5, then 5 it is.

Because of this, I would say it's even more important to schedule things sufficiently ahead of time. Making up plans only 2 or 3 days in advance, when weekend plans are mostly settled and they can't properly schedule around your event, will just stress people out.

> So how would it go in Germany?

1. the first one can occur, if they can't be on time they will ask if they can arrive later and as the host you get to decide whether they should still come or not, either way the guest will arrive on the pre-determined time

2. if the start time is flexible, this is stated clearly as part of the invitation e.g. you invite people for a bbq "starting around" 2PM (rather than at 2PM) and make it clear that they can arrive and leave at any point in the afternoon, just that they should not arrive before 2PM

A more interesting metric would be: You are meeting a buddy for dinner at some pizza place at 18:00. You are there punctual for whatever reasons, at what time would you ask yourself whether you would text your buddy? I think in Germany, the first text message might run 18:05 or 18:10 with lose ("I am sitting inside already") kind of a thing.

The haircut example would just mean you tell your friend in advance that you will arrive later.

> "Fashionably late" is an American thing.

I wouldn't say it's an American thing. Any party that's starting at 10PM isn't gonna get a good crowd till 12-1AM in Europe as well. Cause you don't want to show up when there are barely any people and have to awkwardly dance to the music in an empty place.

Well, not everywhere. I move to Cal from Minnesota. Ethnically, Minnesota is heavily German and Scandanavian. Germanic puctuality is more the norm (or at least was when I was a kid).

Central PA has a strong Germanic/PA Dutch influence and most of the time folks are still very punctual, the two notable exceptions having already been mentioned - informal get-togethers like BBQs and late night parties.

In France it works the same as in the US or Brazil then in my experience, if the party is said to start at, say, 7pm it means that you can start showing up by that time but definitely not that you have to be here at 7 sharp. If it's a dinner I'd expect most people to arrive within the hour or so, if it's just some kind of party then I wouldn't be surprised to see people arriving a few hours "late". I would be quite surprised and probably not fully ready if I told a bunch of people to come to my party at 7 and they all showed up exactly on time.

In France/Belgium parties are starting really late now. A 20:00 party will now see people coming in around 23:00.

Is it a broad change of culture, or maybe your friends became parents recently?

No, it's a cultural thing among 20-35. In the same vein you now have to set up really complex birthday parties: renting a room or a cafe, setting up a theme (80's fashion, cinema, etc.) and have a band or a DJ. Starts at 20:00, people coming in around 23:00.

If the party started at 22:00, would everyone arrive at 1:00? If not, this may indicate when people like to party more than how late people like to be.

Good question, I can't answer. The 22:00 party are supposed to be a different kind from the 20:00 party. Also, anecdata.

The DJ is important too; often (in clubs / cafes / etc), there will be music and such at 20:00, but the main act will only start at 22:00 or later.

I'll always remember our international parties here (in Germany). Party starts, some of us show 5 minutes early, some up to 10 minutes late. Then there is about a 50-60 minute break and the Italians and Spanish would start arriving.

I don’t know about fashionably late but at a large party I feel like it serves a purpose of spreading out when guests arrive so you greet them in turn and don’t have to deal wit a logjam right at 5pm if they all showed up simultaneously. Smaller parties are obviously different though especially if waiting to be seated at a restaurant or serving dinner on a schedule.

In Germany it's the same for parties or meeting with friends. If it is work-related most people tend to be on time.

Just curious if the German trait you mentioned you have witnessed first hand or hearsay?

Well, as a German, I can tell you that we take timing seriously and for business meetings, there is just one time the meeting starts.

Party timing is still something many of us struggle with as not every host does it the same. Some like the guests to arrive on time, others have adopted the more international habit of not expecting anybody during the first hour.

Yes, but there is also a difference between using um and ab regarding punctuality, so better take care when writing invitations. :)

Having lived in both countries, I would say our Swiss neighbors are even more stringent regarding punctuality.

"Mother Fucking Swiss" is a legendary post, and very reflective of experiencing swiss-german people: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/11pcs1/while_i_l...

That was quite an entertaining post. My grandma used to say that the difference between a Swiss and a German is that if we'd forget to cut the lawn, the neighbor would be annoyed after a week. In Switzerland they'd call the Police on day 2.

Trains are also late in Germany. A lot. I blame DB.

They come up with the silliest excuses too, like that one time were they claimed that the track bed had caught fire. I would have believed it if it wasn't -10°C in the dead winter while it snowed like crazy.

On the other hand I do have a punctuality tick, I have counted out the exact amount of time it takes to get to the train station and I wake up at 0600 with or without alarm clock, regardless of when I fell asleep. I also make sure that my clocks are set as exact as possible (I used to run a GPS powered NTP server just for my devices).

> They come up with the silliest excuses too, like that one time were they claimed that the track bed had caught fire. I would have believed it if it wasn't -10°C in the dead winter while it snowed like crazy.

Here in Chicago, the tracks are intentionally lit on fire in the winter (so they don't develop an ice sheet, I think). Maybe the same thing, but whoever explained it was unfamiliar with the practice?

No I don't think they do that here, not that I observed it. The switches are heated though, since they need to move for the train.

There is also a lot of different snow clearing vehicles that go around in the worst areas.

We do have trainbed fires during dry summers at times (like currently) but not winter, it was just some excuse for lack of trains or otherwise produced delays.

The tracks are lit on fire only in areas where they don't have the right of way to install heaters. It's not to keep the tracks from icing up - it's to prevent the switches from freezing up. Rode the UPW Metra line for about 12 years.

I had a laugh. Naturally a bit stereotyped, but still.

There is a relatively old Swiss movie that plays with them. Available only in French and German versions.

https://en.unifrance.org/movie/24595/welcome-in-switzerland

As someone of Swiss ancestry, thank you for this! My sides hurt from laughter.

I experienced it first-hand, thought I admit it has been many years since I've spent any time in Germany and I fully recognize that culture changes over time so I have no idea if this is still how it's done. That's why I used the word "historically" in my original statement.

German here. Punctuality is still valued highly. In a business context it is considered very rude not to be there exactly on time. You are seen as untrustworthy, if you can't honor a simple agreed upon time.

"Fashionably Late" is really reserved for high school and college and people who never grew out of that mindset.

The majority of America just doesn't care about appearance in this way.

Not german, but my father always taught us that you must always be early so you can be on-time, and that unless the host has made it clear arrival time was flexible one must be on-time.

We have relatives who usually leave their home at the declared start-time (so they're at best half an hour late, usually an hour or two), they're by far the most disliked members of my extended family for this an other reasons. Arriving late is disrespectful of both host and other guests, and is emblematic of and perfectly in line with their character.

We used to tell my mother a different time than everyone else for events (an hour early). She'd come right on time!

Yes, depending on where you're from. I was raised to show up at the start time for events, this is pretty common in the Midwest. If the host is someone you know, you'll often ask if you can show up early and help prepare.

When I was in California a few years ago I showed up to a party a few minutes before the invite time. Not only was I the only guest there for the first ~30 minutes, but the host clearly wasn't expecting anyone to show up at the given time.

Exactly. It's a party! people should feel good and not under the artificial pressure of time.

For one anecdote, my extended family usually comes on the dot to things.

There is some etiquette involved. You don't want to be the first person there, just as you should avoid being the 'lingerer' who stays too long or even worse needs to be asked to leave explicitly.

Why don't you want to be the first person?

I've heard of "fashionably late", never anything about "early".

IME early bird gets all the good nachos. And you can leave earlier.

I think early bird is best reserved for close friends of the host. I invite close friends, somewhat-close friends, and maybe tangential friends (that neighbor who seems nice but I don't really know well) to parties, and if it's the last group who shows up first conversation flows less smoothly.

Also if you're first, be ready to help set up!

Are you thinking only of parties with friends? Arriving early can be an awkward and intense social situation; it's just you and the hosts.

Provided I know the host well I consider those early arrival situations much easier to handle than arriving late when the gathering is already in full swing. I know it's absurd, but it almost feels like interrupting.

I prefer too ease into these events by starting early and with a small group instead of making an entrance to a full room.

"Why don't you want to be the first person?"

In some cultures appearing a busy person can be important. Showing early to a party could send the message you had nothing to do before. Not that i like or do that, but some people could pay attention to such details.

It has nothing to do with looking busy. It's simply awkward when you go to a party and you're the only guest present and you don't know the hosts very well.

Even more so if the hosts are still frantically finishing preparations. As an acquaintance, do you offer help? Go for a walk around the block? Best to just avoid that altogether by showing up a little “late”.

I've been to parties where a few friends--the same people each time--would show up 2-3 hours late to a party and their house was only a 10 minute walk away.

When I'd ask why they were late, it was the same reason each time. "Oh, we were watching a movie." A typical movie is 90 minutes long, so they would've been putting it on just around the time the party started.

In general though, everyone was a good 20-30 minutes late, but a few people and myself would show up early to help the host prepare last minute food/drinks.

Kids? Because that requires 30-60m extra with a large probability unless the parents are very punctual and have little else going on that day.

This has a different reason, because everyone is afraid to arrive early and be awkwardly alone with the host.

I think in a social gathering, people take things casually and thus turning up late.

Cultural norms are different for different kind of events.

In the US and most of the West, it's expected to be okay to be around one hour late for big house parties. However, Americans wouldn't normally be late for job interviews or other important events in a set time, which is completely normal in Latin America.

> However, Americans wouldn't normally be late for job interviews or other important events in a set time, which is completely normal in Latin America.

Nope. Sorry, but you are completely wrong. If you are late in job interviews for instance, you will probably not grant the job, if its in bussiness meetings, it will hurt your credentials in the company and it can even lead one to be fired.

Bussiness mentality is different than party mentality. Other things you must have to take into account is local culture. Rio is more laidback, while Sao Paulo is much, much less because it has more of a bussiness culture. (And i bet its the same in the US between different cities).

Thats one of the reasons why i try to teach some people, that for some contexts, thinking in terms of 'Latin America' its just wrong and too broad of a generalization.

You cant hardly generalize the whole of Brazil, and doing so in terms of Latin America is even worse.

Not really, no one would be one hour late for a job interview in Brazil. There is rush hour in Brazil just like any other big city because people need to be on time for work, dropping kids on school, etc.

> When I throw parties in the US nobody shows up until 30 mins after the start time

But if you expect people to show up 30 mins. late structurally, why not just give a time 30 minutes later and have them be on time ?

All this does is cause unnecessary ambiguity.