I arrived at about 16:55 to a party in Denmark, having overdone my effort not to be late. The hosts didn't mind, they were amused that I'd made the effort to not be 15 minutes late.

I was then amused to see all the other (Danish) guests arrive within 2 minutes of each other.

I just don't understand how this works at a house party.

You invite 20 people over for a BBQ at 2pm. Here's possible conversations I can envision in America:

"Thanks for the invite! I actually have a haircut appointment at 2, but I'll come right after"

or

"Thanks for the invite, but I have a a haircut appointment at 2..." "what? No worries! Come join whenever you can; we want to see you!" "Great. I will thanks!"

So how would it go in Germany?

"Sorry, I am busy and can't make it"

This doesn't happen. People are just applying stereotypes to every possible context and situation. Germans are perfectly capable of coming to a BBQ later than the scheduled start time, although it's true that unless it's impossible for them to make their schedule fit with yours, if you tell them 5, then 5 it is.

Because of this, I would say it's even more important to schedule things sufficiently ahead of time. Making up plans only 2 or 3 days in advance, when weekend plans are mostly settled and they can't properly schedule around your event, will just stress people out.

> So how would it go in Germany?

1. the first one can occur, if they can't be on time they will ask if they can arrive later and as the host you get to decide whether they should still come or not, either way the guest will arrive on the pre-determined time

2. if the start time is flexible, this is stated clearly as part of the invitation e.g. you invite people for a bbq "starting around" 2PM (rather than at 2PM) and make it clear that they can arrive and leave at any point in the afternoon, just that they should not arrive before 2PM

A more interesting metric would be: You are meeting a buddy for dinner at some pizza place at 18:00. You are there punctual for whatever reasons, at what time would you ask yourself whether you would text your buddy? I think in Germany, the first text message might run 18:05 or 18:10 with lose ("I am sitting inside already") kind of a thing.

The haircut example would just mean you tell your friend in advance that you will arrive later.

> "Fashionably late" is an American thing.

I wouldn't say it's an American thing. Any party that's starting at 10PM isn't gonna get a good crowd till 12-1AM in Europe as well. Cause you don't want to show up when there are barely any people and have to awkwardly dance to the music in an empty place.

Well, not everywhere. I move to Cal from Minnesota. Ethnically, Minnesota is heavily German and Scandanavian. Germanic puctuality is more the norm (or at least was when I was a kid).

Central PA has a strong Germanic/PA Dutch influence and most of the time folks are still very punctual, the two notable exceptions having already been mentioned - informal get-togethers like BBQs and late night parties.

In France it works the same as in the US or Brazil then in my experience, if the party is said to start at, say, 7pm it means that you can start showing up by that time but definitely not that you have to be here at 7 sharp. If it's a dinner I'd expect most people to arrive within the hour or so, if it's just some kind of party then I wouldn't be surprised to see people arriving a few hours "late". I would be quite surprised and probably not fully ready if I told a bunch of people to come to my party at 7 and they all showed up exactly on time.

In France/Belgium parties are starting really late now. A 20:00 party will now see people coming in around 23:00.

Is it a broad change of culture, or maybe your friends became parents recently?

No, it's a cultural thing among 20-35. In the same vein you now have to set up really complex birthday parties: renting a room or a cafe, setting up a theme (80's fashion, cinema, etc.) and have a band or a DJ. Starts at 20:00, people coming in around 23:00.

If the party started at 22:00, would everyone arrive at 1:00? If not, this may indicate when people like to party more than how late people like to be.

Good question, I can't answer. The 22:00 party are supposed to be a different kind from the 20:00 party. Also, anecdata.

The DJ is important too; often (in clubs / cafes / etc), there will be music and such at 20:00, but the main act will only start at 22:00 or later.

I'll always remember our international parties here (in Germany). Party starts, some of us show 5 minutes early, some up to 10 minutes late. Then there is about a 50-60 minute break and the Italians and Spanish would start arriving.

I don’t know about fashionably late but at a large party I feel like it serves a purpose of spreading out when guests arrive so you greet them in turn and don’t have to deal wit a logjam right at 5pm if they all showed up simultaneously. Smaller parties are obviously different though especially if waiting to be seated at a restaurant or serving dinner on a schedule.

In Germany it's the same for parties or meeting with friends. If it is work-related most people tend to be on time.

Just curious if the German trait you mentioned you have witnessed first hand or hearsay?

Well, as a German, I can tell you that we take timing seriously and for business meetings, there is just one time the meeting starts.

Party timing is still something many of us struggle with as not every host does it the same. Some like the guests to arrive on time, others have adopted the more international habit of not expecting anybody during the first hour.

Yes, but there is also a difference between using um and ab regarding punctuality, so better take care when writing invitations. :)

Having lived in both countries, I would say our Swiss neighbors are even more stringent regarding punctuality.

"Mother Fucking Swiss" is a legendary post, and very reflective of experiencing swiss-german people: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/11pcs1/while_i_l...

That was quite an entertaining post. My grandma used to say that the difference between a Swiss and a German is that if we'd forget to cut the lawn, the neighbor would be annoyed after a week. In Switzerland they'd call the Police on day 2.

Trains are also late in Germany. A lot. I blame DB.

They come up with the silliest excuses too, like that one time were they claimed that the track bed had caught fire. I would have believed it if it wasn't -10°C in the dead winter while it snowed like crazy.

On the other hand I do have a punctuality tick, I have counted out the exact amount of time it takes to get to the train station and I wake up at 0600 with or without alarm clock, regardless of when I fell asleep. I also make sure that my clocks are set as exact as possible (I used to run a GPS powered NTP server just for my devices).

> They come up with the silliest excuses too, like that one time were they claimed that the track bed had caught fire. I would have believed it if it wasn't -10°C in the dead winter while it snowed like crazy.

Here in Chicago, the tracks are intentionally lit on fire in the winter (so they don't develop an ice sheet, I think). Maybe the same thing, but whoever explained it was unfamiliar with the practice?

No I don't think they do that here, not that I observed it. The switches are heated though, since they need to move for the train.

There is also a lot of different snow clearing vehicles that go around in the worst areas.

We do have trainbed fires during dry summers at times (like currently) but not winter, it was just some excuse for lack of trains or otherwise produced delays.

The tracks are lit on fire only in areas where they don't have the right of way to install heaters. It's not to keep the tracks from icing up - it's to prevent the switches from freezing up. Rode the UPW Metra line for about 12 years.

I had a laugh. Naturally a bit stereotyped, but still.

There is a relatively old Swiss movie that plays with them. Available only in French and German versions.

https://en.unifrance.org/movie/24595/welcome-in-switzerland

As someone of Swiss ancestry, thank you for this! My sides hurt from laughter.

I experienced it first-hand, thought I admit it has been many years since I've spent any time in Germany and I fully recognize that culture changes over time so I have no idea if this is still how it's done. That's why I used the word "historically" in my original statement.

German here. Punctuality is still valued highly. In a business context it is considered very rude not to be there exactly on time. You are seen as untrustworthy, if you can't honor a simple agreed upon time.

"Fashionably Late" is really reserved for high school and college and people who never grew out of that mindset.

The majority of America just doesn't care about appearance in this way.