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Re:Regarding the Em Dash by cryptonector on Saturday January 06, 2018 @11:25PM (#16089153)
Two hyphens is plenty. Three is calling attention to it. One is pitiful.

While we're on this subject, wide spacing between sentence-ending periods and the next sentence is the Right Way (tm). In ASCII that's two spaces. We're not animals. Let's behave accordingly.

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by DanielKehoe on Sunday January 07, 2018 @11:14AM (#16091314)
When the web was invented, we came to consensus there should be a single space after periods that close sentences in rendered HTML documents.

You can see the original discussion, on the www-talk mailing list in July 1993 [1]. In the thread "Space after Periods," Terry Allen (an editor at O'Reilly) advocated for rendering more space after a period that closes a sentence than after a period that marks an abbreviation (in keeping with TeX and troff conventions).

I proposed that, "A WWW document (which uses proportional fonts) should have the same space between sentences as between words" and cited as authority "Words into Type" and the "Chicago Manual of Style." in 1993, "WIT" and "Chicago" set standards for publishing much like RFCs do for the Internet.

Terry Allen and I engaged in some snarky backbiting, then Ken Chang of NCSA Publications said he preferred "'one space fits all' as writers of HTML really shouldn't need to know the fineries of typography" and finally Guido van Rossum complained that, "extra space after a sentence... is mostly propaganda by Knuth and Kernighan (TeX and troff)" and implored, "Let's keep HTML simple!"

If you don't like the way that browsers collapse spaces between sentences, you can blame me (and Ken Chang plus Guido van Rossum who clearly had issues with whitespace beyond Python).

[1] http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q3/index.h...

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by cryptonector on Sunday January 07, 2018 @04:02PM (#16092687)
I've seen and participated in many such discussions. Reasonable people disagree: http://apvschicago.com/2011/05/em-dashes-and-ellipses-closed... Unreasonable people downvote.
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by seandougall on Sunday January 07, 2018 @12:19AM (#16089358)
> While we're on this subject, wide spacing between sentence-ending periods and the next sentence is the Right Way (tm).

This convention started with typewriters, and typesetters (e.g. my parents) will tell you that it is only considered correct in monospace fonts. This is also why HTML takes the liberty of reducing whitespace down to a single space character unless you go out of your way to use an  .

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by Dylan16807 on Sunday January 07, 2018 @04:02AM (#16089976)
> typesetters (e.g. my parents) will tell you that it is only considered correct in monospace fonts

People like to say that but it's never been explained to my satisfaction. Spaces are twice as wide in a monospace font. Why would you use more spaces when and only when you have a longer space?

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by alister on Sunday January 07, 2018 @05:22PM (#16093068)
> Why would you use more spaces when and only when you have a longer space?

I've also wondered this. Referring to this mock-up[1], I have the same monospace text with single vs double spaces after sentences, and proportional font with single vs double. The usual argument is that #2 is better than #1 (for mono), but #3 is better than #4 (for proportional). It feels like an inconsistency in the preference, and (as you pointed out) the reasoning doesn't make sense.

[1] https://imgur.com/a/nozuw

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by dragonwriter on Sunday January 07, 2018 @04:19AM (#16090025)
> This convention started with typewriters

No, an em-width space between sentences with either half-em or third-em width space between words was typesettig convention for a long time before typewriters, and is where the triple (later double) spacing in typewritten manuscript convention came from.

Typesetting convention evolved to narrower and eventually mostly settled on equal-to-interword spacing after that typewriter convention evolved from earlier typesetting convention.

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by WovenTales on Sunday January 07, 2018 @11:40AM (#16091410)
There's an article I keep in my bookmarks for times like this: http://www.heracliteanriver.com/?p=324

In short, wider sentence spacing goes back to the first English standards of the eighteenth century – including the first nine editions of the Chicago Manual of Style, and even the tenth still had it as an en-space – and only really started falling out of favour in the twenties. Typewriters had limited effect, but the automated typesetters that suceeded them were actually what killed it off, to simplify the programming.

I typically do still type a single space, but I take full advantage of my preferred TeX flavour's (ConTeXt) automatic conversion to wider spaces. One successful, post-education convert here!

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by gnicholas on Sunday January 07, 2018 @01:04AM (#16089523)
But what of sentences that end with an abbreviation that ends in a period, like "U.S."? If it's just one space after a period, it's impossible to know that the sentence has ended? I realize in books or published articles this can be typeset in a smart way to make it distinguishable, but what about in ordinary writing?
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by cryptonector on Sunday January 07, 2018 @01:29AM (#16089595)
Exactly. "I live in the U.S. I am happy." requires a bit more cognitive work to parse if spaces after sentence-ending periods are not wider.

EDIT: For completeness, here is that same text with an extra space: "I live in the U.S. I am happy." -- see how much easier that is to read? Sure, it's not that big a deal, but it's definitely kind to the reader.

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by function_seven on Sunday January 07, 2018 @02:10AM (#16089705)
Regarding your edit, it appears exactly the same :(. The browser collapses whitespace. I'm not sure if HN's comment system will allow you to double-space after a period, other than in a <pre> block:

    I live in the U.S. I am happy.

    I live in the U.S.  I am happy.
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by cryptonector on Sunday January 07, 2018 @04:03PM (#16092695)
Ay, thanks.
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by Symbiote on Sunday January 07, 2018 @04:23AM (#16090040)
British: I don't live in the US. I am happy.

Full stops aren't generally used in abbreviations here, Mx Cryptonector.

Though there's a more recent trend to write "Nato" rather than NATO, which annoys me for the inconsistency that arises. Plenty of people pronounce VAT as one word, or PAYE, but these are usually left in capitals.

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by dmurray on Sunday January 07, 2018 @07:09AM (#16090552)
Nato (but VAT) has been preferred by the Guardian style guide [0] for a long time. I've never understood it.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/guardian-observer-style-guide-a

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by auxbuss on Sunday January 07, 2018 @01:10PM (#16091835)
The Guardian also does eg and ie, which, equally, I've never understood.
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by cryptonector on Sunday January 07, 2018 @04:05PM (#16092709)
As Churchill said, we're two cultures separated by a common language.
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by angelsl on Sunday January 07, 2018 @02:18AM (#16089729)
Your double space was collapsed by the browser.
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by anjbe on Sunday January 07, 2018 @04:12AM (#16090006)
In TeX, inter‐sentence spaces are visibly wider than normal spaces, including those that come after abbreviations. And when justifying text, they stretch faster than spaces between words.
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by cryptonector on Sunday January 07, 2018 @01:25AM (#16089579)
Typesetters are wrong then.
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by quadrangle on Sunday January 07, 2018 @12:21AM (#16089365)
Multiple hyphens are awful — learn to use your compose key!
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by Freak_NL on Sunday January 07, 2018 @05:31AM (#16090260)
The compose key and its composition tables are a thing of beauty — you can even compose an uppercase ß (ss) these days: ẞ (SS). It's such a shame that neither Windows nor MacOS (or the mobile operating systems for that matter) provide this feature out-of-the-box.
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by acdha on Sunday January 07, 2018 @08:32AM (#16090790)
Mac OS has supported a similar system since the classic era – for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key leads with Compose + ~ + n = ñ, which is Option + ~ + n on Mac OS.

https://forlang.wsu.edu/help-pages/help-pages-keyboards-os-x...

The newer system is simply holding down keys to see accented variants which feels very natural on touchscreen devices but is slower than keyboard shortcuts if you know them.

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by kps on Sunday January 07, 2018 @01:38PM (#16091956)
Mac layouts are arbitrary trees (or probably DAGs, but I've never checked) so it wouldn't be difficult to port an X Compose file.

(XKB manages to be both over-complicated and under-capable.)

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by cryptonector on Sunday January 07, 2018 @01:25AM (#16089581)
I like sticking to ASCII when I stick to English. (Of course, when I write in other languages, I use UTF-8.)
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by Symbiote on Sunday January 07, 2018 @04:28AM (#16090057)
That doesn't work outside America, where accents are often retained (café, façade, naïve) and £ or € is often needed.
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by cryptonector on Sunday January 07, 2018 @04:07PM (#16092719)
I'm OK with that. I'm in the U.S., and I comprehend my non-American English-speaking colleagues, but I don't try to be like them. The same should go the other way around. We're NOT going to standardize on one of the flavors of English -- variety is good.
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by Symbiote on Monday January 08, 2018 @10:20AM (#16097264)
Recognize, however, that it does annoy those of us outside America when something very straightforward — like the ö in my friend's name, or writing £ — doesn't work. Imagine moving to a hypothetical country with no letter C, and being told your name "must" be kryptonektor, or instead seeing %ryptone%tor.

It's fairly common for a lot of computer software to standardize on American English and American conventions, yet several of these are unique to under 1% of the world's population. This morning, a new installation of Microsoft Outlook asked for a location and timezone, yet still showed the weather for Washington DC in Fahrenheit above the calendar. The weather location was easily changed, but not the units. A well-known messaging app I installed last week shows my location as "K%©benhavn", for someone in Russia no character in the location is intelligible. A receipt from a restaurant in Europe has only about a 95% chance of correctly showing €, and maybe a 1/50 chance of showing the date in the wrong order. On an international flight between two non-English places, it's fairly common for the in-flight display to show miles and Fahrenheit with English, which I don't understand, and kilometres and Celsius with (say) Arabic, which I can't understand either — along with the other 99% of non-American connecting passengers.

I have no issue with the minor spelling differences and changes of idiom.

So yes, we mostly understand the Americans, except their measuring units and paper sizes.

> The same should go the other way around.

But it often doesn't.

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by anjbe on Sunday January 07, 2018 @03:24AM (#16089885)
Here in New Mexico ñ is very common in place names. And I’ve known people with accented names who, though they don’t insist on it, appreciate (sometimes visibly brightening) when their names are spelled accurately.
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by cryptonector on Sunday January 07, 2018 @04:08PM (#16092726)
My own name has an accent. I am always surprised when someone gets that right, but I don't insist on it.
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by Dylan16807 on Sunday January 07, 2018 @04:04AM (#16089981)
It would help if you didn't have to install special software to get a compose key.
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by Symbiote on Sunday January 07, 2018 @04:25AM (#16090046)
On Linux, you don't.

> setxkbmap -option compose:menu

For example. There will be a dialog somewhere too.

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by Freak_NL on Sunday January 07, 2018 @05:34AM (#16090270)
> There will be a dialog somewhere too.

In Ubuntu Unity and — I think — Gnome Shell:

Keyboard settings » Shortcuts » Typing » Compose key

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by BenjiWiebe on Sunday January 07, 2018 @02:53PM (#16092322)
And KDE, IIRC: system settings, input settings, keyboard, advanced, compose key.
Re:Regarding the Em Dash by Dylan16807 on Sunday January 07, 2018 @03:45PM (#16092590)
For an average computer, you're neglecting the step where you install Linux.

Even specially enabling it is a real barrier in many ways.

Re:Regarding the Em Dash by Bud on Sunday January 07, 2018 @02:13AM (#16089714)
Learn to use shift-option-hyphen, more like.