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Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by komali2 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:09PM (#15925721)
I've been thinking this over for the past couple months, because I was pretty sure this would be the outcome - that we would lose our net neutrality protection.

So let's play out the worse case - Comcast, AT&T etc wait out the shitstorm and then start throttling traffic and packaging the internet, releasing cable-esque "plans."

Is it feasible to just start running our own fiber to hubs? I want to learn more about the internet and what it would take to bypass the ISPs. Can I do this? Do I need to be incorporated to do it? What would it take to start a new ISP with the premise "unthrottled, unmonitored traffic, charged by the gigabyte - an internet utility service"?

As a private citizen, can I purchase a bunch of land between me and, I dunno, a DNS node or whatever and just lay a super long fiber cable straight to it? Who do I have to pay at the node to get to "plug into" it or whatever?

Hmm. I should see if there's some "How the Internet Works: for Dummies" book.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by maxsilver on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:52PM (#15926261)
> As a private citizen, can I (snip) just lay a super long fiber cable straight to (the internet).

Yes. I worked on a startup ISP for a few years, which attempted to do this. It's actually really easy to do :

1) Pick a point where you can get connection to the internet. (Backhaul). This is usually a phone companies central office, but it can also be at a data centre or other point of presence.

2) Run fiber cable from there to your customers. (You can also use wireless gear instead for a WISP. I don't like this approach, it's very 1990s despite all the newer better gear, but it's much cheaper than fiber and if your careful it can work out OK)

3) Setup some light network management.

Some cities / municipalities have signed agreements for monopoly rights to a telephone or cable provider. Many (but not all) of them can be worked around by simply not selling telephone or TV service.

The land between you and your customers is owned. You'll need space in public property (or 'right of way') to connect to them. This also varies based on city/county/state/local laws, but in Michigan there are somewhat decent rules around this. (Set rates for underground conduit access or utility pole access, rules about what can/can't be blocked, etc).

The only real roadblock is money. Fiber ISPs are super cheap at scale, but are effectively impossible to bootstrap unless you are already a millionaire. In Michigan, I could easily offer everyone residential 500mbps to the home via fiber for $50/month and cover all costs, no problem. But only after we already had a few thousand customers. The cost for your very first customer is somewhere north of $50k/each, and prices don't become reasonable until your in the thousands.

In most areas, the only thing you really need to start an ISP is (1) Lots of money, and (2) perseverance. There's not really any rules that prevent it, and the regulations aren't unreasonable. But the upfront cost is so high, it rules out basically any honest person from having the chance to do it.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by equalunique on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:48PM (#15926868)
"Some cities / municipalities have signed agreements for monopoly rights to a telephone or cable provider. Many (but not all) of them can be worked around by simply not selling telephone or TV service."

Isn't it ironic that the only way for a startup ISP to get around the local monopoly agreement is to not provide services which are regulated by the FCC?

Yet somehow, Google, Amazon, and Facebook have convinced most young people that FCC regulation of ISPs is a good idea.

The sad part is, the only thing between a mass of young voters and 1984-style internet is just 3 more years of Trump/Pai, who most of them hate. Hopefully the FTC's renewed authority over "information service" can be demonstrated for the virtue it is before it's too late.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by rayiner on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:59PM (#15926981)
These are not "monopoly agreements" (which are illegal). If you actually read them, you'll see each one says it's "non-exclusive." E.g. http://charmtv.tv/sites/all/themes/charmtv/pdf/comcast-franc....

What not offering telephone or television service gets you is avoiding the need to negotiate with the city for a television franchise. These agreements are usually stuffed with grab-bags for the municipal government (e.g. per-user fee, 5% of revenue off the top, offer XYZ public-access channels, build out to XYZ neighborhoods). All of this is imposed by the local government, not the FCC.

If you just want to run an ISP, build out where you think you can make a profit, and don't want the city to skim off the top, you can avoid that by not offering television or phone service. On the other hand, not offering television makes it hard to compete. People really do care about television service. I lived in an apartment building in Baltimore that had both cable and FiOS. FiOS was internet-only, because Verizon couldn't get a television franchise in the city. I found out I was the first one on my floor (of dozens of apartments) that had subscribed to fiber since the building was built 4-5 years before. All because people really love their television bundles. (There is a reason Google Fiber offered television service.)

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by eck on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:08PM (#15927630)
Could a local government impose net neutrality rules as a condition for a franchise?

[edit] Or more practically, what general policy changes could a municipality make to maximize the availability of competitive free internet?

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by rayiner on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:32PM (#15927839)
Probably not. Franchising authority extends only to television. Municipalities aren't permitted (under federal law) to leverage their authority over the television side to regulate the broadband side.

I suspect the best thing municipalities can do is to make it easy to build competing systems. Take the list of concessions that Google Fiber cities made in return for getting service and commit to doing that for any potential entrant. Adopt one-touch make ready rules, maintain city-owned ducts in good shape and make it easy to get permits. Lay dark fiber every time the city digs things up to put in sewers or roads. Even a little bit of competition can have significant effects. E.g. in the D.C. metro area Comcast has no data caps because it's in competition with Verizon, RCN, and Cox. At the state level, municipal networks can provide a backstop for places (e.g. rural Maryland) that can't support sufficient private competition.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by eck on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:30PM (#15928352)
I would really like to see a business case study of building out and operating an HFC network in a single average suburb, and how that varies with how cooperative the suburb is.

Could any of the economies of scale enjoyed by the huge/evil ISPs be recaptured by using some kind of franchise-model where the locals can own an ISP like they would a McDonalds?

I think towns might be more willing to make those concessions if at least some of the competitors were local small businesses rather than giant corporations like Google.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:23PM (#15927754)
They could but they won't. VZ/Comcast/ATT/etc of the world throw fantastic fundraisers
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by eck on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:33PM (#15927845)
With respect, you don't know who my local government representative is or how effectively I can persuade him.

The question I asked was what policies, not how to persuade politicians to pass them.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:55PM (#15928055)
That's why Google Fiber failed.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by exelius on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:56PM (#15928551)
Google Fiber failed because being a telecom network operator means tying up billions in capital assets in your infrastructure and then only making 10% margins.

Google’s business model is built around low capex and 35% margins. It’s simply a terrible fit for the other side of the company. Exponential growth becomes logarithmic growth and drags down their financials if they scale out too far.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Thursday December 14, 2017 @10:10PM (#15929420)
Google Fiber failed because it was a software company that has engineers that have never seen a prism decide they can take on VZ.

When Warren Kumari gets less accolades than a random Google SRE you have a real disconnect with reality.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by rayiner on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:06PM (#15928149)
The opposite is true: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/09/how-kansas-city-.... Google got tons of concessions from Fiber cities that other providers don't get, such as free power and free use of public property. There was nothing special about Kansas City--cities were falling over themselves to offer Google concessions in return for getting Fiber.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:09PM (#15928167)
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by super-serial on Thursday December 14, 2017 @07:43PM (#15928822)
Google fiber failed because carriers would fork and eventually drop Android unless Google got out of the ISP business.

But now the carriers are buying up tech companies like Yahoo, their services are going to get preferential treatment so tech companies are screwed.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Thursday December 14, 2017 @10:07PM (#15929403)
That's laughable. If Google was to take a VZ, there would be no VZ. Same goes for Comcast, AT&T etc.

The reality is that Google has no interest in taking on carriers. There's nothing sexy is digging treches and hiring Fat Joe, who belches, farts in a workplace, drinks a litter of coke, votes Trump and goes to work at -4C to splice fiber. You won't get accolades. You would only get shit if fiber is out and Paris Hilton can't watch her Netflix.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by madengr on Thursday December 14, 2017 @09:59PM (#15929365)
I live in Overland Park, KS and I’m still waiting for GF. They have ground to a halt.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by jeffwilcox on Friday December 15, 2017 @01:39AM (#15930060)
Here in Seattle our condo building is in the middle of something insane - Comcast is actively installing their network in our building; previously we were only served by Wave Broadband. The local government has finally pushed back on what used to be de facto "gentlemen's agreements" to not allow competition in buildings. Excited to see what this brings!
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by equalunique on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:05PM (#15927034)
Cool. Thanks for the clarification & details.

Do you think the "monopoly" concept may still apply when looked at through the Net Neutrality argument that ISPs may throttle/block services which compete with their own (possibly franchised) services?

I too live in the DMV area and am on the lookout for an apartment with decent internet.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by rayiner on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:14PM (#15927112)
Sure. You can have market power in the antitrust sense without being a legal monopoly.

I don't know where you work, but I'm personally loving the Annapolis area. (As I like to say, VA won't let you have weed, DC won't let you have guns, but MD will let you have both.) I also have two fiber providers to my house, and the state is building municipal fiber in the more rural counties that don't have FiOS.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by equalunique on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:27PM (#15927799)
Ahhhh Annapolis... Home to a big naval academy & supporting infrastructure/economy. That sounds great. My hope is to find a sweet/similar deal somewhere between Laurel & Crystal City.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by madengr on Thursday December 14, 2017 @10:01PM (#15929379)
Dude, MD won’t let you have guns. Need to move to flyover country for that.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by rayiner on Thursday December 14, 2017 @10:58PM (#15929584)
If your view of the Second Amendment runs more towards militias than self defense, MD isn't bad. For long guns, there is no permit required, and either concealed or open carry is allowed without a permit. The ban on "assault style" weapons just means the state police runs a website listing all the semi-auto rifles you can legally buy (which is a lot). You can get your 30-round magazines in Virginia and bring them in with no trouble.

Fun fact: MD has more NFA registered weapons per capita than most of flyover country: http://metrocosm.com/map-of-federally-regulated-weapons.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by madengr on Friday December 15, 2017 @08:48PM (#15936876)
Concealed carry allowed without a permit in MD? When did that happen?
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by rayiner on Saturday December 16, 2017 @01:23AM (#15938109)
For long guns (which is kind of pointless, I suppose). The point is that there is nothing preventing you from stocking up on arms for when MD/DE/PA have to become their own country.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by madengr on Saturday December 16, 2017 @10:38AM (#15939964)
You’ll need to shoot for constitutional carry. Here in KS (least gun laws in the nation) there is statewide open & concealed carry, no license required, at schools, bars, university. Though there would be a trespassing charge if you refuse to leave if asked. Still need a CCH license to get around federal Gun Free School Zones. No NICS if you have CCW.

The recent Firearms Protection Act says firearms and accessories (suppressors) made in KS are exempt from federal regulation. Though a couple of guys lost their federal case when they built a suppressor and sold it; at least no prison sentence.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by HighPlainsDrftr on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:14PM (#15928212)
I wonder how much this has changed recently. We have PS Vue, sling, Youtube XYZ. Could you partner with one them to provide a discount to their services? Do the same with Vonage/etc?
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by burkemw3 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:30PM (#15927254)
I viewed sports as a major obstacle for people ceasing their cable television subscription. I think YouTube TV offers a viable option for this now.

So, work on that referral from your ISP to YouTube TV!

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by fjsolwmv on Saturday December 16, 2017 @11:38AM (#15940234)
Municipal Monopoly agreements are not illegal. No monopoly is illegal. _Abuse_ of monopoly power is illegal. Cable TV is a government granted m.onopoly
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by tbabb on Thursday December 14, 2017 @07:16PM (#15928689)
> Isn't it ironic that the only way for a startup ISP to get around the local monopoly agreement is to not provide services which are regulated by the FCC?

Isn't it telling that the FCC is repealing the consumer-protecting regulations, and not the monopoly-protecting ones?

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by NotSammyHagar on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:00PM (#15927541)
What the heck are you getting at? You don't seem to be making a clear point. Federal regulation of most common monopolies is a good idea, and the internet has thrived under the net neutrality regulations.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by dang on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:02PM (#15928108)
> What the heck are you getting at?

Please don't do this here, but rather post civil, substantive comments only.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by tbabb on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:40PM (#15927354)
Ladies and gentlemen, behold astrotrufing.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by dang on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:03PM (#15928116)
This breaks the HN guidelines badly. Please read them and don't do this again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by alanfalcon on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:08PM (#15927628)
The “everyone who disagrees with me is a paid shill because I surround myself in an echo chamber and can’t fathom of a legitimately dissenting opinion” mindset on the internet is more toxic and disturbing than actual astroturfing (insofar as it is far more prevalent at this time). It adds nothing to the discussion, stifles the sharing of unpopular opinions, and only reinforces the echo chamber. Please consider the ramifications of such accusations and in cases where you have proof, present it in lieu of the substance-less attack.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by equalunique on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:35PM (#15927866)
My identity as real person is somewhat assured via Keybase.IO.... https://keybase.io/equalunique
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by JSONwebtoken on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:09PM (#15927640)
Ladies and gentlemen, behold astrotrufing.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by onezerozeroone on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:39PM (#15926774)
Crowdsourceable? If you need a couple thousand users, would it be possible to run a marketing campaign, get pre-purchase commitments of $100-200, and give some rewards to early adopters? If you raise enough funding, you're good, if not, just cancel the campaign.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by burkemw3 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:32PM (#15927280)
Google Fiber did some variety of this:

> Google Fiber works better when communities are connected together. So we’ve divided Kansas City into small communities we call “fiberhoods.” We’ll install only where there’s enough interest, and we’ll install sooner in fiberhoods where there’s more interest.

https://fiber.googleblog.com/2012/07/how-to-get-google-fiber...

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:25PM (#15927780)
Google fiber was a flop as those of us who played in the ISP land knew it was going to be.

Being an ISP is running an sewage treatment network. It is not sexy.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by bwl on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:54PM (#15928537)
fuck it at least I have a gigabit pipe from fios now
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Thursday December 14, 2017 @10:08PM (#15929408)
Just don't try to push a gig over it.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by alexeldeib on Friday December 15, 2017 @12:06AM (#15929774)
I have a gigabit connection, and regularly verify my bandwidth. It's usually not actually in four digits, but I see 800+ megabit on a pretty regular basis.

Admittedly, not FIOS.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by zimpenfish on Friday December 15, 2017 @06:55AM (#15931191)
> b4rn.org.uk

It amuses* me that the rural Northwest and Yorkshire Dales can get orders of magnitude faster yet cheaper broadband than my parents in suburban Manchester.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by danesparza on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:27PM (#15927229)
This article might give you some inspiration: https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-08-09/tired-waiting-high-sp...
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by tobych on Thursday December 14, 2017 @10:16PM (#15929440)
Sweet. That's from Yes! Magazine, headquartered just up the road from me here on Bainbridge Island, WA.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by dhimes on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:53PM (#15926923)
I was thinking a co-op but, yeah this.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by DigitalJack on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:59PM (#15926324)
I wonder if this would be feasible at the neighborhood level via Home owners association. The neighborhood gets a tower and microwave link to a backhaul station, and provides internet via wifi or wires to the neighborhood.

I think our neighboorhood is about 130 houses. probably not enough to make it cost effective.

On the flip side, maybe starting a local company to provide LOS microwave hookups to the various neighborhoods in the area could make it work.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by maxsilver on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:05PM (#15926390)
If you can somehow convince your HOA to let you put up a tower, then yes, it's feasible. And if you are doing microwave link only, it's pretty cheap.

You can rent space on a nearby cell tower for a pricy-but-not-insane monthly fee, and they'll usually have decent backhaul already present. (American Tower had a WISP sales program specifically for this at one point, I'm not sure if they still do). Run point-to-point from there to your neighborhood via some microwave WISP gear.

If you had a volunteer from the HOA willing to setup and manage it (a bigger ask than it sounds like), and if all 130 houses would agree to pay $50/month, then the math would work out OK (at least, using pricing I got in suburban Michigan about 4 years ago).

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by twothamendment on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:57PM (#15926962)
> If you can somehow convince your HOA to let you put up a tower.

You don't have to convince them, let the FCC do that. I lived in an area with a heavy handed HOA. The only decent broadband was a WISP. They had a few go rounds with the HOA, but they can't regulate antennas. In the end the WISP put a tower on my roof - I never heard a word. They may try, but they don't have authority to regulate it.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by tzs on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:45PM (#15927398)
> They had a few go rounds with the HOA, but they can't regulate antennas.

That's a little bit of an overstatement. HOAs can regulate antennas unless the FCC (or Congress) makes an exception.

In the case of WISP, there is an exception that applies: 47 CFR 1.4000 [1]. WISPs would fall under the exception for antennas for "fixed wireless signals". A "fixed wireless signal" is "any commercial non-broadcast communications signals transmitted via wireless technology to and/or from a fixed customer location".

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/1.4000

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by CodeWriter23 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:50PM (#15926892)
I think you have a flawed assumption that the big telcos that own the tower and backhaul aren't going to charge content providers for access to that tower.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by maxsilver on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:58PM (#15926968)
> you have a flawed assumption that the big telcos that own the tower and backhaul

Most cell towers are owned by a third party (not a big telco), and they'll lease to anyone if you have the cash, and the site has the capacity (physical space, weight/wind requirements, etc). You can lease from American Tower, Crown Castle, SBA, etc.

The existing backhaul is often owned by existing monopoly telecom providers. But not always. And competitive non-big-telco commercial operators will often install service to a site for you, if you are willing to pay for it. For example, I'm looking at a cell site in Michigan right now, that's deep in AT&T territory, but Sprint fiber is actually the installed backhaul provider, and four other commercial providers will install service there for a price.

You can know all of this upfront, before you sign anything, so there's very little risk in terms of tower space or backhaul availability. People have been doing this for decades now, it's not as ill-defined as it might seem.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by CodeWriter23 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:31PM (#15927833)
Speaking from today's perspective, you're correct. But it won't be long until all the third parties et. al figure out they too can get into the paid access game. Contracts will be revised. Rents will be extracted. Because there are no regulations to put a check on greed.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by bspn on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:11PM (#15926473)
Your neighborhood would be an ideal candidate for something like this wireless mesh network solution currently in development: https://8rivers.com/portfolio/8-rivers-networks/
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by theedwood on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:56PM (#15926955)
Yes, it is feasible: https://dbiua.org/

There are lots of local groups doing this around the country already in underserved areas as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B0u6nvcTsI

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:28PM (#15927805)
No need to do wireless.

Contrary to the claims made if one is to remove municipal blocks fiber is very easy and very cheap to install. What makes fiber installation expensive is municipal regulations

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by ianai on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:06PM (#15926421)
I wonder if 1000 homes pitched 1000$ each if the 1M$ would be enough for them all to get access? From OP it sounds like no.

I wonder if the onion network will counteract this.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by kakarot on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:18PM (#15926549)
> I wonder if the onion network will counteract this.

How, exactly?

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by dsnuh on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:29PM (#15926660)
Maybe GP was asking is using Tor would circumvent the issue?
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by giaour on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:51PM (#15926909)
Wouldn't ISPs just block or throttle all Tor traffic (like they did with bittorrent back before net neutrality regulations were in place).
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by dsnuh on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:55PM (#15926948)
I mean, that's my guess. Just trying to interpret GP.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by ianai on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:55PM (#15927491)
I’m thinking something like the onion plus a conglomerate fee for first class citizen level prioritization.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by kakarot on Thursday December 14, 2017 @07:13PM (#15928666)
I have no idea what you are talking about. What do you think "the onion" is?
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by dsnuh on Thursday December 14, 2017 @07:50PM (#15928852)
Maybe GP is saying Tor could monetize to provide private access? Which, correct me if I am wrong, is a feature Tor doesn't even provide?

I'm pretty lost too.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by ianai on Thursday December 14, 2017 @09:41PM (#15929306)
Clearly I’m not the guy to talk to about tor/onion. I’m wondering if a network could be set up across thousands of homes somehow and that network could purchase priority of its traffic. Basically there’s always a way to add another layer of abstraction to circumvent a lower layers restrictions.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by tpxl on Friday December 15, 2017 @08:52AM (#15931756)
Yes, a mesh network would work for that, then you just need a method to measure how much traffic each node serves then pay the node operators for that.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by ianai on Friday December 15, 2017 @11:05PM (#15937554)
Is anybody working on that?
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by tpxl on Monday December 18, 2017 @04:16AM (#15950429)
I know there were mesh networks with wireless microwave transmitters deployed in some rural areas, but I can't find the articles. It's probably going to get more and more attention though, along with distributed electricity and similar things as technology progresses.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by callesgg on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:09PM (#15928165)
um
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by brightball on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:07PM (#15926428)
I remember seeing a company that was doing exactly this. They setup shop in an area and then sell to neighborhoods.

Can't remember the name.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by bhntr3 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:43PM (#15926819)
About the wireless approach, Monkeybrains (https://www.monkeybrains.net/residential.php) in SF seems to do this. I believe I read somewhere that they're planning on replacing the wireless stuff with fiber for areas where they have high customer density. They're awesome, the service is good (except when it rains. Thanks california), it's cheap ($35) and I've been pretty happy with it.

I wonder if that could work to bootstap an isp. Obviously the wireless thing won't work in less dense areas and is subject to weather but maybe a successful business in the city could provide enough capital to expand to the suburbs.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by snowpanda on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:17PM (#15927143)
Thank you maxsilver, this is one of the most informative posts I've seen on HackerNews.

Question, you said: This is usually a phone companies central office

Are there risks involved with that? Like for example, they could start playing games with you by saying 'sorry we're doing construction for a week, you can't access your office' ? Maybe a bad example, but I mean, would it make more sense to do it outside of their office?

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by maxsilver on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:53PM (#15927473)
> Are there risks involved with that? Like for example, they could start playing games with you by saying 'sorry we're doing construction for a week, you can't access your office' ?

Probably? I've never written up a plan using an actual monopoly telco's CO, exactly for this reason. It's easier to find anywhere else to start from, and usually cheaper too.

I only mention it because my experience is mostly suburban / small city related, and I know the majority of small ISP / WISP guys are hyper-rural. They may not have any other options available to them.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by snowpanda on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:06PM (#15928152)
Got it! Thank you.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by okreallywtf on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:19PM (#15926562)
I'm having trouble finding it now, but didn't the FCC overturn the rule that says ISP's have to sell bandwidth to other ISP's? If they do not, or they are able to make it to where they do not have to, they could pretty easily prevent people from doing this or charge some huge amount for a contract to connect directly to a backbone.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by maxsilver on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:25PM (#15926613)
Yes absolutely, but it's not really a problem on the commercial market because there's enough competition there.

In my small city in Michigan, for example, there's exactly one phone company and one cable company for residential uses. But there are 4 different local companies selling commercial bandwidth backhaul, in addition to nationwide major providers like Level3 and AT&T.

If you're somewhere truly rural, this can be an issue, the local monopoly might not let you buy commercial (re-sellable) bandwidth. But in most cities -- even small ones, it's probably not a major issue.

At the moment, commercial ISP services are still somewhat competitive. It's the residential ones that are completely monopolized.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by rev_bird on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:07PM (#15927056)
This is cool, thank you for explaining. It never occurred to me that it would be so different for commercial offerings. The main question I have with ideas like this is where the shitty pricing scams are going to be happening—if it's the residential companies, then yeah, this is perfect. But if it's Level3 that's shaking down Netflix for more money, for example, then the "fork" isn't happening high enough up the chain. Do you have any insight into this part of the equation?
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by burkemw3 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:46PM (#15927409)
There is some related (old) discussion in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7699862.

That posts link is dead, but the wayback machine is awesome: https://web.archive.org/web/20140828011618/http://blog.level...

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by dsnuh on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:34PM (#15926729)
Please don't be offended, I am only pointing this out because you are obvious very intelligent and expert in the field.

>If your somewhere

*you're

I only point it out because I know some people discount comments that have grammar and spelling errors.

Thanks for the super informative posts!

Edit: I guess I offended, based on the downvotes. I only pointed it out since it was used incorrectly in the posts. I was trying to be helpful, apologies if I was being a dick.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by davrosthedalek on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:21PM (#15928277)
As a non-native speaker, I appreciate if somebody corrects me like this, even if they hurt a little bit. I think you wrote it in a very nice manner.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by dsnuh on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:46PM (#15928481)
I apologise if I hurt you feelings in any way. I meant it only as constructive feedback to someone who might not be aware.

Thanks again for your posts.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by davrosthedalek on Thursday December 14, 2017 @07:33PM (#15928775)
I wasn't the original poster you corrected. I wanted to express that I would prefer to be corrected the way you did it.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by dsnuh on Thursday December 14, 2017 @07:48PM (#15928844)
Oops! Sorry about the confusion.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by freedomben on Thursday December 14, 2017 @10:38PM (#15929517)
I didn't downvote you, but you might have gotten downvotes because the beginning of your post built up anticipation by making it sound like you had some amazing point/rebuttal to drop, and then seeing only an `s/your/you're` was a huge disappointment ;-)
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by mbil on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:14PM (#15926506)
Based only on this description it sounds like a Kickstarter-esque model might work. E.g. get tens to hundreds of dollars from thousands of would-be customers, then start building once the funding goal is reached. Contributors would get X GBs or Y months of service once the utility is operational.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by topspin on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:19PM (#15928264)
"In Michigan"

People in Michigan are getting fed up with this situation. Lyndon Township passed a 20 year millage to fund a municipal fiber network. The vote passed 2-1 with almost 50% turnout in a non-general election year. The tax will cost every $200K household about $300/year; $6000 total. That's on top of the monthly fees they intend to pay for the service.

People want good fixed broadband Internet. They are willing to pay for it. The telcos and cable operators don't care; they're happy with the customer base they have and their horizon is measured in quarters, not decades, so they're entirely uninterested in the effort and investment needed to build out such systems. They want the low hanging low effort fruit.

This NN outcome won't change any of that; whatever ambition these companies have is now focused on the windfalls they'll make from the peering agreements they're going to negotiate with Netflix et al. and none of that money will find its way to build outs.

http://www.mbcoop.org/lyndon-township/

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by pnash on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:34PM (#15927293)
You've covered the "last mile", but there is the upstream world to take into consideration.

1) Connecting into a CO is one thing, but your fiber is going to need to connect into something. Who is paying for your optics, is there a port or line card that can accept those optics? Does the CO actually have enough bandwidth upstream? This is a real issue.

Back in the 90s, I helped set up an ISP in Boston proper and our main competition had well over a 1000 customers attached to a single T1 (1.5mb/s) link. Everyone wanted 28.8k speeds (lol), but would normally get ~300 to 2400bps. The competition had a bunch of modems with a single upstream link. No one wanted what we were selling - guaranteed bandwidth / true 28.8 bandwidth all the time. People wanted $19.99/unlimited all you can eat. People still want that today.

Back to the CO, maybe you are lucky and they have some open ports. Worst case scenario, they want you to plop down a router and you'll do 10gb/e between. You can go with a homemade box and hope that it is stable, or you can buy expensive network gear.

2) To your customers, that "CO" is the "internet", but to that vendor/telco, it is just a single point of presence (POP). That CO has to connect to other POPs that are owned by them, and that costs real money. Eventually through a unknown number of hops, your traffic will hit an exchange point or carrier hotel. This is where your traffic exits their network and is taken up by another provider and/or company (google has their own fiber plan, for example). The amount of bandwidth at these peering/access points is finite and providers choose to peer with each other, usually at no charge, if there is an equitable distribution of traffic. The last thing that you want is for one company to take up all of the (finite) bandwidth at a peering point.

An ISP connects to multiple carriers (l3, cogent, comcast, att,verizon, etc) so that your customers have quick access to the websites/services that they want to visit - which most likely have to traverse one of those other providers. Similarly, their customers will want to access services that you are hosting, so you will take in a similar amount of ingress traffic.

With the fiber network that you are connecting your customers to, they'll most likely want to access bandwidth intensive services. You better hope that your CO has upstream capacity and a fast path to netflix/hulu/facebook/google/akamai/etc.

Or you, as a internet service provider, try and peer directly with the content providers if they allow it. If there are only 2-3 hops between you and Netflix, your users will love you. If they have to bounce around the country a couple of times, your customers will go back to Comcast (because they have a well connected backbone).

3) This doesn't even cover where you are going to get your IP addresses, if your upstream provider will announce them in BGP for you, etc. Or maybe you connect in to two carriers, get an ASN and announce your networks yourself. You are still at the mercy of your upstream providers.

I think a lot of these details are often overlooked when someone talks about network neutrality. I think network neutrality is a glib term for a number of issues:

- filtering of traffic and/or inability to access a service - loss of freedom to host stuff "for free" on the internet - lack of competition in "the last mile".

The FCC/TitleII stuff, from what I've heard, negatively impacted small WISPs that were trying to start up, by assuming that they were the same size as major wireless providers. A $20k fine because your lawyer failed to properly submit paperwork can wipe you out if you are a simple provider that is trying to provide access to a small community. You aren't AT&T, but title II will assume that you are - and penalize you accordingly.

For more information, read some of these filings/papers:

https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/10717113433056/FCC-17-108%20Res...

and in particular:

http://www.interisle.net/sub/FCC-14-28%20NN%20Interisle%20Co...

-Paul

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:53PM (#15928040)
This is not correct.

Say you have a HOA with 100 houses and you got the last mile wired with fiber. There is probably some place ( such as community center ) that is owned by HOA itself. You get 100 pairs to that building. 10G LR SFP+ are $40 a pop all day. So you need $80 per link once. 48x 10G port switches are $3k all day. So it is 24x edges with a reasonable fabric oversubscription - so you need 5 of those because you want to oversubscribe core rather than the edge as edge requires interaction with a customer while core requires simple internal upgrades. In reality we are goig to do 1Gbit/sec to every drop delivered over 10G so we only need 100Gbit/sec to the edge. Lets spend another $10K on the "core switches" - which in reality are going to be the same as the edges but we will provision them in a way where should this take off we could replace core with 40 and 100G. All of this is going to cost us very little money. Hell, lets pretend it costs us $50K just for the sake of the argument because we like buying really expensive stuff

We can ride a single fiber pair ( remember, this is a residential service, so screw redundancy ) to one of the major interconnect centers because we can drop DWDM gear on our side ( prisms are cheap as hell ) and rent a rack in that interconnect location.

Monthlies:

$10K/mo ( worst case scenario ) DF to interconnect point $2.5K/mo ( rack at the interconnect point )

This gives us the L2 access. But that's not a problem. The problem is that 100Gbit/sec of non-congested IP transit is abou 55c per mbit/sec so that is $55K/mo.

So your cost is $67K/mo to provide 100 houses in a HOA with 1Gbit/sec of IP.

Lets say that you are in a magic place called say... NYC and it just happened that this wonderful thing is a building located right next to one of the big interconnect points and the developer who developed this highrise owns both buildings. You nuke dark fiber monthly cost. Hell, lets even pretend that the developer who owns both buildings lives in a building that we are wiring and he wants high speed internet connectivity to be able to watch NetFlix and PornTube. So there's not only no cost for dark fiber but there's no rack cost.

You are still at $55K/mo of non-congested IP to provide 1Gbit/sec access to every one of those 100 apartments.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by snuxoll on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:14PM (#15928208)
Kind of insane to not oversubscribe residential or small/medium business connections, it's extremely rare that 100 houses would saturate a 10Gb line or even half that.

When you pay $50/mo for an internet connection you aren't paying for guaranteed bandwidth, you're just hoping the ISP has enough capacity to meet peak demand - not much different from your local electric provider.

It'd cost me roughly ~$3000/mo for a 10Gb point-to-point link from Boise to Equinix in Seattle from Zayo, and about another $2500/mo for a 10Gb transit connections from Hurricane Electric. You could serve quite a lot of households from that, 50-100:1 oversubscription is pretty common for residential/small business service - so that 10Gb connection could pretty safely serve 500 households reducing your fixed costs to $11/customer/mo.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:34PM (#15928381)
Replying again.

What we need a boatload of small regional networks ( like the one with 100 houses of HOA ) that have an open peering policy. If you can peer out 50% of your traffic at $0.01 per mbit ($100/mo PNIs to CloudFlare, JoeSchmoeNet, FLIX etc) then you have the same non-congested non-oversubscribed exit for 50% less.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:25PM (#15928305)
And this is where you are getting into some really interesting stuff:

what you want to do is be an ISP and content originator. In that case you effectively are double-selling your bandwidth since eyeball networks are bringing content in while web farms are pushing content out.

Oversubscription is a reality but it transparently works only on a very large scale - which is why Verizon and Comcast should be able to provide extremely high speed connections ( they don't due to their peering and interconnect policies but that's a separate thing ).

HE is terribly oversubscribed.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by maxsilver on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:51PM (#15927450)
> Who is paying for your optics, is there a port or line card that can accept those optics? Does the CO actually have enough bandwidth upstream? This is a real issue. (snip) You better hope that your CO has upstream capacity and a fast path to netflix/hulu/facebook/google/akamai/etc.

Yes and yes. I don't want to dismiss this, it's a real need, but this is what you pay your upstream for. I've never seen a provider not take care of it.

I suppose if you cheap out on your upstream, this can be an issue. I can't imagine someone doing all the work to build a Fiber ISP, and then cheap out on the actual internet service, but I suppose anything is possible.

> This doesn't even cover where you are going to get your IP addresses, if your upstream provider will announce them in BGP for you, etc. Or maybe you connect in to two carriers, get an ASN and announce your networks yourself. You are still at the mercy of your upstream providers.

I don't know how common this is, but my upstream providers would just sell me the IP addresses and were flexible enough to handle either scenario.

> You are still at the mercy of your upstream providers.

Absolutely. This is always true, until you get large enough to be the upstream provider yourself and peer with others directly. But since upstream is competitive, and carries heavy contracts with teeth, you are mostly shielded from the worst atrocities.

It's kind of like forming a union. Sure, you're still "at the mercy of the employer", but you have way better bargaining power to prevent major problems, when you represent 10,000 internet users instead of just one. It's not perfect by any means. But it's worlds better than anything folks are used to on the residential side.

> The FCC/TitleII stuff, from what I've heard, negatively impacted small WISPs that were trying to start up,

Yes, fines should be lower for small business. But these guys could also just not break the law.

The complaints I've seen from some small WISPs are from people who are cheap and lazy, and want to do some pretty sketchy things. (Intentionally throttle Netflix to save upstream bandwidth, for example, because they want to sell 20mbps but can only provide 2mbps). These are blatant violations of Net Neutrality that would cause a shitstorm when AT&T/Comcast does it. But because they are 'small businesses', they want a bunch of sympathy despite doing the same slimy stuff.

I'm guessing there's probably an honest reason for some of the complaints, but the ones I've heard myself were all pretty shady. These providers give honest ISPs a bad name, and play into the false "everyone's just as evil as Comcast anyway" narrative.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by glass_of_water on Thursday December 14, 2017 @10:28PM (#15929482)
What's the breakdown of the $50k/month/customer at the very beginning? Is most of the cost the equipment or leasing the backhaul connection?
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by collinmanderson on Thursday December 14, 2017 @07:45PM (#15928829)
> Pick a point where you can get connection to the internet. (Backhaul). This is usually a phone companies central office, but it can also be at a data centre or other point of presence.

You could try searching for your city on peeringdb to find good places to get the internet connection from. https://www.peeringdb.com/advanced_search

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by just1nn on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:54PM (#15928535)
I have this right now. First in a small mountain town, and now in Longmont, CO, USA. $49.99/mo for 1Gb/1Gb no caps, no extra charges.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by stilldavid on Thursday December 14, 2017 @07:18PM (#15928695)
Me too :) I think it was easier for Longmont as it's part of "Longmont Power and Communications" - they were able to run a lot of fiber in existing infrastructure, and right of way was essentially a non-issue.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by jrnichols on Thursday December 14, 2017 @09:07PM (#15929175)
power companies seem to be in the best position to offer awesome internet. a local provider here has 1000/1000 for $99/mo. but unfortunately they haven't laid fiber in all of the neighborhoods, especially the older ones. so it's only the newer subdivisions that are getting it. :/

i'd be all over it. one less bill to worry about too. (just bundle internet + power)

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by mulletbum on Friday December 15, 2017 @08:54AM (#15931767)
Acenteck has been doing this in Michigan for the past few years in the Grand Rapids area. They keep pulling lines to new rural neighborhoods coming in. Basically get everyone on the block in one shot because Comcast/Charter have such a bad name.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by unclebucknasty on Thursday December 14, 2017 @08:48PM (#15929103)
>The cost for your very first customer is somewhere north of $50k/each, and prices don't become reasonable until your in the thousands.

Sounds ripe for a crowdfunded startup.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by qxi on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:58PM (#15928565)
> In Michigan, I could easily offer everyone residential 500mbps to the home via fiber for $50/month and cover all costs, no problem. But only after we already had a few thousand customers. The cost for your very first customer is somewhere north of $50k/each, and prices don't become reasonable until your in the thousands.

Sounds like you could benefit from and ICO to gauge interest and raise the capital necessary for infrastructure development ;)

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by JohnTHaller on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:48PM (#15926204)
No, it isn't. I live in NYC. I have access to exactly one broadband provider. So, if Spectrum starts blocking Vonage because they want you to pay for their VoIP instead (ISPs in the US have done this in the past), I'll have to drop Vonage and use Spectrum's VoIP. Repeat for blocking P2P, Google Wallet, Facetime, Netflix, etc (all of which have previous incidents in the US).
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by RyanZAG on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:57PM (#15926306)
As someone from a country without net neutrality, I have to say this hasn't happened. Generally you get very cheap or free plans that are sponsored by Facebook or others that give priority to Facebook, but ISPs are always happy to take a little bit more money for an unlimited plan that gives you full access. And at least in my country, they're not unreasonably priced.

Even without net neutrality, your single monopoly ISP could triple their prices and there would be nothing you could do about it. The fact that they haven't seems to show that net neutrality probably isn't going to affect you all that badly. No sane company is going to block Google Wallet or Netflix.

Feels like net neutrality isn't the problem - it's Spectrum that is the problem. If repealing net neutrality gets your country to fix your real problem, then I'd say it's going to be a massively good thing in the long run as top parent on this comment chain implied.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by komali2 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:58PM (#15926316)
>No sane company is going to block Google Wallet

Verizon, then, is insane. http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/06/technology/verizon_blocks_go...

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by nickysielicki on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:05PM (#15928143)
It's not entirely clear whether they blocked it from being installed on their carrier locked phones, or if they blocked it from communicating with Google servers at the network level. Back in 2011 it was relatively uncommon to buy unlocked phones, particularly for use on CDMA networks. It sounds to me like they just blocked the phone from installing the application, rather than anything that net neutrality would prevent.

There's no legal reason that a carrier has to allow you to use an unlocked phone on their networks. My cable ISP doesn't allow me to bring my own modem, for example. From what I can tell, the net neutrality rules wouldn't have changed this situation at all.

edit: This article[1] is extremely informative; Verizon was not blocking anything at a network level, they were disabling the OS from accessing the necessary "secure element" (TrustZone) in some of their carrier locked phones, which made the Android APIs that Google Wallet relied on cease to function. Due to this, Google chose to not show the app on the Play Store to customers on Verizon because they didn't want people to try the app and have it fail.

So in conclusion, this "blocking" (if you can even call it that) is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand about net neutrality.

[1]: http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/05/01/a-brief-history-of-v...

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by jrnichols on Thursday December 14, 2017 @09:08PM (#15929181)
yet that is one big example that even the ACLU has been spreading around.

No wonder people have been confused.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by freedomben on Thursday December 14, 2017 @10:42PM (#15929533)
The level of disinformation with NN is staggering. The perils and draw of confirmation bias does not discriminate based on political orientation.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by jtuente on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:34PM (#15926732)
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by hiram112 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:10PM (#15926469)
Just read the article.

They blocked Google Wallet on Verizon phones, so not completely comparable as, say, throttling Nexus.

As a side note, their competing mobile payment platform was called ISIS. I'm guessing they rebranded since then.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by selectodude on Thursday December 14, 2017 @09:46PM (#15929321)
They re-branded themselves to Softcard and then dissolved.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by RyanZAG on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:59PM (#15926338)
How long did it stay blocked? I bet they unblocked it as soon as customers complained.

Definitely an interesting example though. Nothing like that has ever happened in my country without net neutrality, but then we have a fairly competitive market where a single carrier trying that would lose their customers very quickly.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by JohnTHaller on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:02PM (#15926366)
> How long did it stay blocked?

Nearly 2 years.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by JohnTHaller on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:12PM (#15926492)
> That's crazy! I'd have cancelled and swapped ISPs after a week. Guess people didn't really care?

The vast majority of people in the US only have access to a single broadband ISP. I live in NYC and only have access to one. My other options are slow DSL (under 15Mbps download and under 1Mbps upload), dialup, or using a hotspot that is generally limited to 15GB download (3 Netflix movies) for $90 a month.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by RyanZAG on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:08PM (#15926435)
That's crazy! I'd have cancelled and swapped ISPs after a week. Guess people didn't really care?

EDIT: After reading more replies, it seems like you guys actually have no choice. Serious red flag that it sounds like net neutrality was covering up. I think you will be better in the long run with it removed, but you all need to get active and fix your ISP problem and create a free market.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by nostrademons on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:14PM (#15926512)
In many regions in the U.S. you don't have any other ISPs. Cable & telecom companies have de-facto monopolies in most places; your only competition is often a reseller that uses the exact same pipes as the local telecom and so is subject to the same throttling.

Internet speeds are also ridiculously slow. In the heart of Silicon Valley, I'm on 5 MBPs/sec, even though the equipment can easily do gigabit. (How do I know this? Because if you pay several hundred bucks a month, they will upgrade your speed to gigabit without anyone coming out.)

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by RyanZAG on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:26PM (#15926626)
Yeah you definitely have bigger problems than net neutrality. I'm in the middle of Africa, 30km from the CBD of a small city, and I have 1gb local / 100mb international fiber with no caps or throttling for the equivalent of ~$85/month. Plus I can WhatsApp the tech support if something goes wrong and they'll drive over and fix it within 30 mins or so.

I also have a choice of about 8 different ISPs offering me fiber lines to my door who seem to be in a price war with each other at the moment.

I don't have net neutrality though. But surely the problem you're facing is ISP/government monopoly related, not the net neutrality bit? Or do you think it's something else causing the ISP issues there?

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by nostrademons on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:32PM (#15926707)
It's totally ISP/monopoly related, but convincing the government to keep net neutrality regulations is generally viewed as easier than convincing them to break up monopoly telecoms. It was hard enough getting them to block the AT&T/T-mobile merger. The last time a company's been threatened with being broken up was Microsoft in the late 1990s, and they got off with a slap on the wrist (albeit one that made them reluctant to enter new markets, which opened the door for Google & Facebook, and Apple's resurgence, in the early 2000s).
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by Jach on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:45PM (#15926838)
Is that 100 up as well as down? How's the roundtrip latency to get a packet to a US server and back? In any case you have better internet than me for cheaper, and I'm two miles from downtown Bellevue, WA USA not out in the sticks of a flyover state. :(

Generally speaking though I'm also not particularly sad that this NN regulation has been repealed, I agree with the assessment that our problems are not from NN, lack of NN is merely one of many unpleasant possibilities with the current system so even if it was fully fixed there's still all the other problems, most of which have no workarounds. Lack of NN has a workaround. The fact that many employees at many businesses require using a VPN to work from home means that most ISPs will have no choice but to accept extra money to give those people unthrottled / uncensored lines that they take for granted right now as part of the base fee.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by wincy on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:37PM (#15927333)
Speaking of flyover states, I'm in Kansas and have symmetrical gigabit from Google Fiber. They've recently moved in and I think that if net neutrality is really an issue, competitors like Google will be able to handily out compete the existing companies that already exist here. I tried to get AT&T Fiber for almost a month before finally giving up and getting Google Fiber.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:03PM (#15928119)
Symmetric gigabit at $85/mo is oversubscribed by a factor of 10
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by rayiner on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:59PM (#15928090)
Have you considered that maybe your internet is bad in the heart of silicon valley for the same reason your public transit, housing, etc., is bad? Symmetric gigabit is ~$80/month where I live, and I'm having 2-gig installed in a couple of weeks for $150/month. We've got all our utilities on poles, zoning variances are a breeze to get, and nobody cares that my house never got its final inspection. But we've got lots of Trump lawn signs around so people in Silicon Valley would never stoop to moving here.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by agar on Thursday December 14, 2017 @07:02PM (#15928587)
Just as a counterpoint, I'm also in the heart of silicon valley. I have 125Mbps internet, with a few other options available, at a not-unreasonable cost.

I recently redid our garage to create a laundry area, and the inspector collaborated with me to identify the most efficient (and safe and legal) way to implement the plumbing, drainage, and electrical. It was neither confrontational nor onerous; I truly got value from a helpful, knowledgeable person that wanted the project to succeed.

We have more jobs than houses, our local schools are some of the best in the state, I have 3 parks in walking distance and a network of bike paths that run through the city. Miles of protected open space, with trails, farms, and facilities are all nearby.

I'm more than happy to pay the taxes to live here and to support the regulatory regimes that protect all of the above.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by nostrademons on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:29PM (#15928334)
Certainly considered it - I'm a political moderate, my political views are generally a mishmash from both parties (really all parties, I've been known to vote Libertarian and Green as well, sometimes on the same ballot).

But I'll say that my sister lives in Houston, TX, which has a basically diametrically opposite political philosophy. And it's fucked up in entirely different ways. Traffic and public transportation both suck here, but public transportation is basically nonexistent in Houston, and at least we don't have people shooting at each other because of road rage (which actually happened in my sister's neighborhood - some woman with a small child in the back seat cut off a guy in a pickup truck, so he pulled out a handgun and opened fire). Our house prices are ridiculous, but at least we can drive ten minutes and be in well-preserved, well-maintained open space preserves, while Houston's public parkland exists but is nowhere near as easy to get to or enjoy. Our Internet sucks, but PG&E is pretty reasonable and actually fixes outages fairly rapidly (even if it does have a tendency to burn down Santa Rosa), while my sister's electric bill goes through half a dozen companies, each of which tries to extract as much money from the customer while providing as little service as possible.

On balance I prefer the Californian system, though I'm open to compromise systems that combine the best of both worlds. (We're both initially from Boston, BTW, which is kinda in the middle of those two politically but fucked up in its own special charming way. At least the streets in both Silicon Valley and Houston are laid out in a grid, with more than one lane apiece and traffic lights in the appropriate places, and they can build a new public works project without the ceiling caving in.)

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by jrnichols on Thursday December 14, 2017 @09:17PM (#15929219)
> and at least we don't have people shooting at each other because of road rage

Sorry, but yeah, you do. no major city is immune from crime, sadly.

> but at least we can drive ten minutes and be in well-preserved, well-maintained open space preserves

We can do that here too. I'm not in Houston, though, but Houston isn't representative of Texas. Neither is Dallas, though.

I found that I had more internet options when I moved away from San Jose and landed here. I had FIOS, Cox, Charter, wireless ISPs, even had that Clear service for a while. Now I live out in the cow fields and have Suddenlink for cable. My other internet options would be DSL or wireless. 200/20 down for $140/mo, business package with a static IP.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by JohnTHaller on Friday December 15, 2017 @04:08AM (#15930554)
Most cities don't have poles, especially up here in the Northeast (snowstorms and such), so it's not like another cable company can come along and just string another wire to an existing pole.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by __jal on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:03PM (#15927017)
> but you all need to get active and fix your ISP problem and create a free market.

I, for one, think this is excellent advice and eagerly await the United Stated dedicating itself to becoming a free market someday.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by Chaebixi on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:12PM (#15926491)
> That's crazy! I'd have cancelled and swapped ISPs after a week. Guess people didn't really care?

Lucky you, having a no-contract plan and alternatives that don't have worse policies.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by cmurf on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:26PM (#15927790)
I think this is true, but it also ignores the fact the U.S. does not have nearly as strong anti-fraud and competition law as in Europe.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by jtuente on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:32PM (#15926701)
> And This Doesn't Apply To Google Wallet

> The thing is, these rules don't even apply in the case of Google Wallet, because Verizon isn't blocking anything. Why'd I bother explaining them, then? So you can see exactly how they don't apply.

> Unlike the tethering app that requires root access, Verizon isn't actively preventing the Wallet app from being installed on phones. That's all Google. If Google wanted to make the Wallet app compatible for every Verizon phone in the Play Store such that you could download and install it, it could. There is absolutely nothing to stop that happening - but the app wouldn't actually work.

[0] - http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/05/01/a-brief-history-of-v...

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by fjabre on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:13PM (#15926495)
All of the services you mention were founded in the US on NN principles. We wouldn't have services like Netflix or Facebook or Google if NN had not been in place.

What web services & startups have come out of your country recently that are house hold brand names? Can you name any?

You are missing the point entirely.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by RyanZAG on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:18PM (#15926545)
Sorry, I may be incorrect here, but from what I understand net neutrality only came into effect two years ago in 2015. All three of the companies you mentioned were up and running prior to that. So net neutrality enabling them doesn't seem to be correct to me.

EDIT: As for my country.. c'mon, low blow. Most of the people in my country are having some difficult problems with simpler issues than video streaming. We're getting there though, hopefully!

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by dragonwriter on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:04PM (#15927589)
> Sorry, I may be incorrect here, but from what I understand net neutrality only came into effect two years ago in 2015.

You are off by 10 or more years, depending on how you count. Some modes of internet service were under regulations which promoted something like neutrality before they were regulated specifically as internet service rather than ancillary to telephone service, but the FCC adopted a formal net neutrality policy (the Open Internet Policy Statement) in 2005 which was enforced through case-by-case action without general regulations from then until 2010 when that approachbwas struck down by the courts; at the time, the FCC was already developing net neutrality regulations under Title I, which it adopted also in 2010. Those rules were struck down in 2014, with the court saying that rules of that style could only be adopted under Title II authority. The FCC then initially drafted slightly weaker rules under Title I (on the theory that they could avoid crossing the line requiring Title II reclassification), but after the robust public comment period on that draft adopted, in 2015, regulations under Title II.

Net neutrality has been FCC policy since 2005, and every enforcement avenue except Title II regulation has been foreclosed by the courts.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by wtallis on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:34PM (#15926726)
> Sorry, I may be incorrect here, but from what I understand net neutrality only came into effect two years ago in 2015.

The 2015 regulations were a replacement for 2010 regulations. The 2010 regulations were struck down in court on the grounds that they exceeded the FCC's powers under Title 1 of the Communications Act; the court told the FCC they would have to classify ISPs as Title 2 Common Carriers in order to enforce net neutrality.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by Goronmon on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:35PM (#15926743)
2015 was when official rules were put into place to protect Net Neutrality. But before that, ISPs had generally worked in a way favorable towards Net Neutrality. But then they started to act against Net Neutrality and then the rules were put into place.

So, you could argue that we've have net neutrality in principle since the internet existed (or at least up until 10 or so years ago when ISPs started to push back) but we have only had Net Neutrality enshrined in regulation for a couple years.

It appears that going forward we will have neither.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by fapjacks on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:33PM (#15926720)
No. The entire history of the internet has been built and developed under NN principles. It was merely codified by the FCC in 2015. Companies regularly violated these principles in the past, and the FCC has previously intervened on behalf of customers. Now, there are no protections, with the FCC stating that it will no longer intervene for these violations.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by dragonwriter on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:06PM (#15927605)
> It was merely codified by the FCC in 2015.

And 2010.

And, more generally, in 2005.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by fjabre on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:06PM (#15927049)
My point was that the innovation from NN was a HUGE deal for the US economically and all the innovation came out of that, i.e. Netflix, Google, Amazon. If a country like yours has no NN protections then you probably won't see innovation like this in your country.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by dlwiest on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:18PM (#15926548)
"We wouldn't have services like Netflix or Facebook or Google if NN had not been in place."

Facebook was founded almost a decade before Net Neutrality regulations were in place in the US.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by fjabre on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:09PM (#15927070)
That misses the point. NN protections were enforced even if they were not codified by the FCC, through the courts. Once they were hard coded it made it a lot harder for ISPs to cheat. That's all 2015 was about, making it harder for ISPs to throttle so we didn't have to sue every time. It wasn't about putting practices into place that weren't there before, it was about hard coding practices that were enforced for years so that it was simpler to enforce. That's all.

The new ruling by the FCC does the opposite. It encourages the ISPs to cheat in a blatantly obvious way.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by imtringued on Friday December 15, 2017 @09:25AM (#15931988)
The concept of net neutrality is as old as the internet itself. Are you saying facebook was founded a decade before the internet was invented?
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by 13years on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:27PM (#15926633)
>We wouldn't have services like Netflix or Facebook or Google if NN had not been in place.

I'm astonished at the FUD I've seen recently over NN. Netflix, Facebook, Google and the rest of the internet predated NN. NN started in 2015.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by Goronmon on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:38PM (#15926762)
The current regulations around Net Neutrality have only officially existed for that long. Previous attempts at regulation happened before that, and the principles around net neutrality were how the Internet worked for a long time until ISPs began to go a different direction.

So, we've had lowercase net neutrality for basically the entire existence of the Internet. But the uppercase Net Neutrality has only been around for a couple years, but came into existence because we were losing the lowercase version.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by 8note on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:40PM (#15926785)
exactly. before 2015, you had to pay Comcast extra if you wanted a package that included access to Google, and even more if you wanted reasonable speeds to get to your Facebook feeds

those were the golden days that created the internet. remember when Microsoft payed out to isps to close down access to altavista so they could get more users to use Bing?

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by JohnTHaller on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:01PM (#15926361)
Every example I gave in my comment you are replying to are things that a US ISP did prior to the implementation of net neutrality. Even during net neutrality multiple ISPs were caught artificially throttling Netflix to attempt to get payouts.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by RyanZAG on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:10PM (#15926461)
Ho! Amazing, thanks for clarifying. Your ISPs are pretty messed up. Are they government monopolies? I think your problems are far, far deeper than net neutrality, and just re-affirms my belief that net neutrality was a band-aid that needed to come off for you guys to wake up and fix your problems directly at the source. I wish you well in the fight ahead!
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by egypturnash on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:27PM (#15928326)
Well yes, most of the US's problem stem from the fact that Corporations Are People (when it suits them to be), and can thus give unlimited amounts of money to politicians because Money Is Free Speech.

It’s been getting worse and worse over the past few decades because of this, and we may be near the point of violent revolution. Except probably not because hey, who has time for that when they gotta put in forty hours a week plus overtime, or three part time jobs, just to barely fail to make ends meet?

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by 33W on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:24PM (#15926603)
What type of competition do you have among your ISPs? I think this is a fear in the US because many people are locked into a single ISP because of geography.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by RyanZAG on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:33PM (#15926714)
Tons of competition. I have a choice of multiple different fiber line providers, government copper phone line provider, a bunch of different wireless options, and then multiple different ISPs who run over those different fiber or copper lines or 4G towers.

Generally small towns would only have access to 1 fiber or copper line provider (generally Telkom our useless government supplier), but multiple ISPs running on that line so it's not that bad, but I live in the suburbs near a city so I have a lot more choice.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by dbnoch on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:24PM (#15928301)
I wanted to add that I think everyone's case is different. I had a tenure in Chicago and all of the apartment buildings I lived in were locked to a single ISP. This is very much so a YMMV.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by spsful on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:43PM (#15926821)
I'm definitely not going to be that guy who says his ISP is the exception, but Spectrum, basically the evolution of Time Warner Cable, hasn't even dabbled in paid prioritization. Time Warner Cable didn't start fiddling with fast and slow lanes when Comcast tried it and never put out any such policy. That's why I liked living in a TWC city and not a Comcast city (ever noticed there are barely any cities that have both TWC and Comcast? That's intentional)

However, I will say that the management of TWC left once Charter completed the purchase, and as such they might start new prioritization policies and anti-net neutrality stuff. But from what I've seen, Spectrum doesn't seem to be publicly expressing interest in that stuff. Unless I see it in a policy change on their website I won't be concerned. (Okay now time for the part where I tell you that I am completely for net neutrality and think that Ajit Pai is a piece of excrement for gutting net neutrality laws because judging from how I worded my message it probably seemed like I supported the repeal. In short, screw Ajit Pai.)

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by btown on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:05PM (#15927036)
If the thrown-together design of TWC's official app is any indication, I find it more likely that the previous leadership knew that software wasn't their specialty and (rightfully) shied away from building software businesses before they became worth prioritizing in the first place. Now that they can amortize the costs of such development over the entire Charter-TWC group, it may very well become worthwhile... not to mention that they'll be looking for new profit centers given the demise of cable [0]. So our insulation from this may be short-lived.

To your parenthetical point, I actually find it fascinating from a psychological perspective that someone like Ajit Pai can present himself as, and very possibly believe himself to be, a "man of the people" while simultaneously literally making a mockery of their interests [1]. Someone with a mind so ungrounded that it can function under that level of cognitive dissonance is as deserving of pity as they are of ire. (Or perhaps that's what I tell myself about most politicians so that my veins don't burst.)

[0] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/11/chart...

[1] https://gizmodo.com/ajit-pai-thinks-youre-stupid-enough-to-b...

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by kodablah on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:55PM (#15927490)
I think TWC didn't implement any of the anti-consumer technical measures not due to altruism, but due to a lack of technical acumen. They implemented anti-consumer human measures because they had that ability.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by Consultant32452 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:40PM (#15927907)
I believe the FTC, the government agency responsible for going after unfair trade practices, already covers the scenarios you're worried about.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by ad_hominem on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:00PM (#15926354)
> As a private citizen, can I purchase a bunch of land between me and, I dunno, a DNS node or whatever and just lay a super long fiber cable straight to it? Who do I have to pay at the node to get to "plug into" it or whatever?

You'll have to buy transit from someone, which will most likely be terminated at a neutral internet exchange / data center. You'll pay the transit provider (e.g. Hurricane Electric) for the bandwidth, and monthly fees to the data center for colocation and the cross-connect.

To get that transit back to a point of presence from where you'll branch out service to end users, you'll either have to bury your own fiber (very expensive - tens of thousands of $ per mile even in rural areas not to mention maintenance costs), lease fiber through someone else (e.g. Zayo) (also very expensive), or use wireless backhauls (cheaper but wireless comes with its own set of headaches).

Also you'll have to get a CCNA yourself or pay someone to manage your network since a carrier network is nothing like a home network.

Now by the time you get service back to your point of presence, you'll have to figure out how to get it to people. Burying fiber is extremely expensive, no way around it. Fixed wireless is a simpler option but getting a line of sight to the customer isn't always feasible, and you'll never have the bandwidth of fiber.

That's assuming people even want it. Out in a semi-rural area there may not be much competition, but the population density is so low putting up a tower or burying fiber may not be viable. In any city you're likely to have cable or DSL companies already there, with a price point that may be difficult to convince people to switch. Most people won't care about philosophical arguments about net neutrality, or be willing to pay a lot more for higher speeds.

In my opinion your best bet is to rally a coalition of people in your area to petition the municipality to bury the fiber and provide it as a utility. If you're uncomfortable with the gov't being an ISP, there is a very interesting model where the city provides an open access network which lets private ISPs plug in as virtual network layers, letting customers easily switch providers: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/06/what-...

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by vmarsy on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:32PM (#15926005)
> As a private citizen, can I purchase a bunch of land between me and, I dunno, a DNS node or whatever and just lay a super long fiber cable straight to it?

I'm sure you can, the issue is do you have a couple million $ in your bank account to do this?

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by jonbronson on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:45PM (#15926163)
Start a kickstarter/gofundme. I'll contribute.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by komali2 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:57PM (#15926308)
This is the route I'm thinking - crowdfunded. Problem is how do you crowdfund "unfettered, utility-style access to the internet" when your funders are spread across the country? It would have to be municipality by municipality. Much harder to get a concentrated volume of funding.

Could go the VC route, are there other companies doing this right now? Is the profit model not sellable to a VC yet?

It might not be feasible until the actions of other ISPs drive demand high enough for new ones.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by maehwasu on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:36PM (#15926053)
I do; want to come and hang out on my compound?
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by ryanisnan on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:46PM (#15926171)
You joke but...
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by ogsalman on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:46PM (#15926172)
Yeah!
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by komali2 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:55PM (#15926289)
I want half a mil spent on us wearing new socks every day for the rest of our lives, and the other half spent on a pool full of sushi.

I understand the pool full of sushi would go bad in about ~8 hours if it is not eaten. I can guarantee you this will not happen.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by oflannabhra on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:24PM (#15926600)
This is essentially how cable worked in the beginning[0]. In lots of rural areas, it is still the case that communities band together into co-operatives to provide power, cable, and broadband[1].

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_television#History_in_th...

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_cooperative

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by twothamendment on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:44PM (#15927395)
Co-Ops (at least mine) are awesome. I have fiber to my home and I live in the "middle of nowhere". The other two are the power company and the propane company. They act like a company - except they only try to provide a service and provide jobs, not reap huge profits.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by patcon on Thursday December 14, 2017 @09:07PM (#15929177)
> I want to learn more about the internet and what it would take to bypass the ISPs. Can I do this?

Fwiw, a group called Toronto Meshnet [1] was investigating the opportunity for a community mesh project (which lacks incorporation and know-how of how to run an ISP) to partner with a non-profit ISP [2] (that lacks capacity, constantly gets shut out of the last-mile to new condo developments, but understands the ISP side) to have mesh accommodate the last-mile into homes.[3]

I think they're in a slow-down phase right now as they didn't get funding, but I imagine there's legs in this approach, and they'll ramp up again :)

[1] https://tomesh.net/ [2] http://www.torfree.net/ [3] https://github.com/tomeshnet/documents/tree/master/meeting_n... -

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by analogmemory on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:54PM (#15927478)
In San Francisco there's local ISP called MonkeyBrains that uses microwave tech to create a wireless network in the city. They put a receiver on top of your apartment/building and then run cat5 or use existing cable. It's pretty awesome and fast. So it can be done. I'm hopeful that people will be inspired to create their own local ISP in light of the new rules.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:04PM (#15928127)
Wireless won't solve this problem.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by johncolanduoni on Thursday December 14, 2017 @08:48PM (#15929104)
How is the latency?
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by analogmemory on Sunday December 17, 2017 @04:24PM (#15947740)
5-15ms
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by sliverstorm on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:26PM (#15925926)
Mostly what you need is a lot of money and a legal team. There are some government granted monopolies in certain municipalities, but by and large I understand it's just a money problem. The incumbents have tons of established infrastructure; you're starting from scratch.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by throwaway413 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:53PM (#15927467)
Along the same lines, curious, what if it was a WiFi mesh network connected to a gateway node. You could bridge cities/regions by gateway. Inspiration stemming from Havana’s 50mi mesh intranet.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by jasonellis on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:45PM (#15926159)
If you're looking to actually do this, look into wireless broadband: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_broadband

There are currently small operations that offer wireless broadband by putting the receiving equipment on your roof (sometimes they give you a discount if you serve as a repeater) and they purchase wireless data from larger companies' cell towers.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by ethagnawl on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:03PM (#15927019)
Building a mesh network* is a much cheaper, more realistic alternative.

Also, with regard to your point about "starting an ISP", I don't know the legalities and IANAL, but NYC Mesh goes out of their way to state that they _are not_ an ISP - there's probably a reason for that.

- https://nycmesh.net

- https://www.alliedmedia.org/dctp

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:05PM (#15928141)
Mesh networks do not work at scale.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by ethagnawl on Friday December 15, 2017 @12:14AM (#15929803)
How not? I'm not disagreeing, but genuinely curious.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Friday December 15, 2017 @08:06AM (#15931468)
Fundamentally, mesh network is a shared medium. Think of it as ethernet over hubs. As long as there are not lots of talkers it works just fine. The more talkers you get the worse it becomes.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by ethagnawl on Friday December 15, 2017 @12:24PM (#15933349)
If those "talkers" all had hubs which were participants in the mesh, would that help the network "scale"?

Also, _what is_ the "scale" issue? Network congestion? Latency introduced by the need to relay a message from node A1 to node Zn? Something else entirely?

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Monday December 18, 2017 @07:57AM (#15951283)
Network congested which is going to cause latency.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by martin1975 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:02PM (#15928104)
I sent a message to our mayor, to which he responded, regarding muni fiber... It seems the best way to approach it is via a public-private partnership - meaning, we (the residents of our 50,000+ city in SoCal) pay for the buildout, own the fiber infrastructure that should be good for at least 3-5 decades, while someone like Cox, GFiber or whomever provides billing/maintenance/operations.... that way it's a win win and the city doesn't have to get involved in becoming a full blown ISP.

In his response he said the topic's been brought up before. If I get his and the council's blessing, the next thing is to hit the ground and get probably 3000-5000 signatures and put this up on a ballot in 2018 November to see how the city feels. I'm optimistic however cause I've been hearing multiple complaints, on-goingly about bad service from ISPs (and we have Cox here, and I don't think they're that bad as opposed to Comcast) and probably a pet peeve is data caps... Sure, we've 1TB caps which is plenty, but w/advent of 4k TV and IPTV ... that may be very low.

Here's to hope that in a few years we all have FTTH where I live (crossing my fingers!)

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by shmerl on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:43PM (#15926815)
> Is it feasible to just start running our own fiber to hubs?

It is, on the city level. Some created municipal broadband, and showed crooked monopolists and their paid shills to the door. To be clear - Comcast and their ilk fear municipal broadband way more than net neutrality rules. So expect fierce opposition, especially attempts to bribe local legislature to write laws forbidding or obstructing municipal networks.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by username223 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @09:55PM (#15929351)
> As a private citizen, can I ... just lay a super long fiber cable straight to it?

The other responses offer far more technical details than I can, and probably also a better long-term strategy, but here's a small thing you can do right now: knock on your neighbor's door, and offer a six-pack of good beer and half his internet bill in exchange for his WiFi password. If he says yes, cancel your service. Say you are moving to Bhutan and becoming a monk to make their "customer retention specialists" go away.

From my apartment in a fairly spread-out "city," I can see about ten wireless networks, half with a pretty good signal. I can only imagine what things are like in SF/NY, where techies are stacked on top of each other like dogs in a no-kill shelter.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by rmason on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:03PM (#15928117)
It's quite expensive to start a fiber network. You might want to consider using wireless with a mesh network. In Detroit there's an organization that has become the leader:

https://www.alliedmedia.org/dctp

In Detroit it's not real high speed because they're using foundation money to provide basic access, but there's no reason I know of that it couldn't be.

Here's more information on the mesh network in Detroit:

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/kz3xyz/detroit-me...

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by gtrubetskoy on Thursday December 14, 2017 @04:18PM (#15927149)
Back when the last mile was a real problem, people got pretty inventive with using directional antennas to establish links over vast distances using unlicensed spectrum, which as far as I know is totally legal still.

Here's a Cringely blog from 2001-ish:

https://web.archive.org/web/20011215000823/http://www.pbs.or...

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by topspin on Thursday December 14, 2017 @10:09PM (#15929414)
I did this for a few years in the late 90's, before anything better than POTS was available in my area. Used a 2.4 GHz 24 dBi antenna on my roof to reach an access point on a mountain about 7 miles away. This worked well; the network operators were competent and the service was more reliable than some of the systems I've had since.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by orblivion on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:28PM (#15928332)
A relevant story many will recognize: https://www.thelocal.de/20140601/german-villagers-build-own-...

As best I can tell they are not even municipal. Merely a cooperative owned by a big chunk of the town. At least last I heard.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by juris on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:59PM (#15926325)
Depends on where you live. Every city has different laws about how to run cable underneath the ground. The first cost you pay is figuring out where everyone's cables are. The second cost you pay is convincing the city to let you do it. The third cost you pay is doing the digging.

If you spin it off as a service to your block, then it might be possible...?

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by ThrustVectoring on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:21PM (#15926575)
IMO the way to go if the ISP monopolies start getting unreasonable is to start single-issue voting for free municipal broadband. Possibly also run a campaign or grassroots organization for it as well. Comcast can't screw with you if nobody is using Comcast.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by hyperpallium on Thursday December 14, 2017 @10:18PM (#15929450)
Also a possibility of ad hoc suburban networks, where each phone becomes a cell tower. User ISP.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by anigbrowl on Thursday December 14, 2017 @05:40PM (#15927908)
Besides the costs, getting all those easements takes a lot of time, and often legal work. This is why crowdsourcing fiber hasn't taken off, it's a nice idea but you'll go through a ton of money on permits and legal filings before you buy a single spool of cable.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by letsbehonest on Thursday December 14, 2017 @10:05PM (#15929397)
The more likely next step is not cable-esque plans. It is ISPs shaking down Internet companies to try to get huge sums of money at the source.

As such, what you'll see as a consumer is just higher prices from _other_ companies, as they're forced to pay for access to bandwidth which you paid for.

This also means that most people won't understand the problem, and won't get upset with the correct people.

This is a travesty, akin to if every appliance manufacturer had to pay a recurring tribute to the electric company.

But hey... at least the Libertarians are all quite excited.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by racer-v on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:45PM (#15926165)
Ask around for community-friendly ISP's in your area (including Monkeybrains and Sonic in San Francisco).

EDIT: OK I suggested sharing a T1 but apparently that hasn't been a good deal since the 90's.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by JimboOmega on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:59PM (#15926326)
I so desperately wanted to use either of those, but MonkeyBrains would require me to mount something outside my building which wasn't going to be possible at either place I've lived in the city... and Sonic... well I got Sonic.

Sonic runs on AT&Ts lines. It was slow and had lag spikes. After about a year it got to be where the modem (and Internet) would cycle for a couple minutes about once every 2 hours. The (Sonic!) tech came out, found a fault on the line, and his advice was to get Comcast.

I also tried getting Wave, but couldn't.

I went through a similar runaround with my previous building (also in SF), where I tried to avoid Comcast. Eventually I caved.

Comcast was terrible and shady from the very beginning. They sold me an internet package they later claimed didn't exist(!) even though I had the offer in writing from the sales guy. So they just adjusted my bill to what they thought I should pay.

They eventually backed down after I kicked up a huge fuss (and took it to social media), but they also threw a bunch of free stuff I didn't want in to my package as "compensation", and guess who was paying for that when my promotional rate expired before they promised it would? My rate was constantly going up if I didn't fight them tooth and nail. I had to check every bill and almost every one had a new surprise. I have never worked with such a perfidious organization.

So after all that I wanted Anything But Comcast, which I already disliked before that experience. I've seriously considered tethering to Verizon Wireless as better...

But I like to do online gaming and Comcast is the only vaguely reasonable option at this point. They're a little less shady if you avoid ALL television service.

Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by bwann on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:48PM (#15926205)
You realize a T1 is a measly megabit-and-a-half right? Crappy 3G is faster.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by notyourday on Thursday December 14, 2017 @06:07PM (#15928155)
3G may be faster but it is rarely better - with a T1 you are going to get very low latency and very very very low jitter.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by ticklemyelmo on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:58PM (#15926321)
Why would they include the T1 option but ignore the nearly equivalent bandwidth of a pair of tin cans connected with string to some acoustic modems?
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by dreamcompiler on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:52PM (#15926259)
T1 lines only carry 1.544 Mbps. On the upside, I don't think they cost $1000 nowadays.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by nopzor on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:49PM (#15926213)
10 friends sharing a t1 falls apart if more than 1 friend wants to stream a movie at the same time. Or if just one friend wants to stream a HD movie. A t1 is 1.54mbit.
Re:F.C.C. Repeals Net Neutrality Rules by twothamendment on Thursday December 14, 2017 @07:22PM (#15928714)
Ah, the good old days - when I had DSL with 1.1 Mbps up AND down, guaranteed. My ISP didn't even have a policy against resale so I shared with 15 units in 6 different buildings - all wired. I was always amazed how much better my dedicated 1.1 felt compared other plans boasting up to 5.