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Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by codingdave on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:54AM (#15618421)
I worked from home for five years, and just this week started back into a job where I commute to an office. I don't love the commute, but I also don't agree that working from home is a universally better answer for me on a personal level.

Everyone knows the benefits of working from home, but there are downsides as well. Fixable downsides, but they exist nonetheless -- it is easy to become a hermit. Easy to over-work. Hard to draw the line between your work time and your personal time. Easy to get siloed into your current job, while not keeping up with the rest of the company and enabling career growth. Easy to let poor communication habits turn into real problems. And when your entire company works from home, as mine did, you develop a culture of acting like there is no better choice, and the benefits of your personal flexibility at home outweigh any problems at work... causing people to not fight very hard to fix problems, and to stay in those jobs longer than they should because of how comfortable the working situation is.

Now, all of those things can be handled if you have personal discipline, good co-workers, and great leadership. But not all teams can truly claim those qualities. So I feel both working environments have their good and bad sides, and the choice of which situation to pursue is a question that needs to be answered with some solid contextual information about the team, the culture, and your personality to know which one is truly best for any specific individual at any specific job.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by vog on Friday November 03, 2017 @09:08AM (#15618865)
> it is easy to become a hermit. Easy to over-work. Hard to draw the line between your work time and your personal time

Not just that, but there's also the other side: Easy to procrastinate, easy to give false reports which then leads to regular overwork in the days just before a hard deadline.

I know these issues from remote workers I worked with, but also know this personally while working on my Diploma theses.

While we are at it: Working on Diploma/Master thesis is in many ways very similar to remote work: One works mostly from home, maybe in the library but even there mostly alone, i.e. not in an office, meeting one's mentor at most once per week. I met with other students which were in the same situation - just to get into a group feeling. That worked quite well, even though we had no overlaps in our topics and hence not much to talk about.

The situation is a bit different if you write your PhD thesis, as that usually means you have a job at the university during that time, and at least have an office and collegues.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by wambotron on Friday November 03, 2017 @11:38AM (#15619984)
> Easy to procrastinate, easy to give false reports which then leads to regular overwork in the days just before a hard deadline.

This isn't a remote problem. I see this _all_ the time with people at work now and I don't work remotely.

This is more of a personal issue -- some people do it consistently, others don't. I never had that problem working remotely, and I don't pretend to be somewhere else in my regular reports in the office either.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by stronglikedan on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:09PM (#15621124)
Just my personal anecdote, but I have much more discipline in the office than I do at home. I get distracted by everything at home, and I procrastinate by doing things I couldn't do at work, like housework, watching tv, etc. I know myself enough to know that I cannot trust myself to work at home on a regular basis, and I'm more content with myself regarding my productivity at the office.
[dead]
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by felipelemos on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:32PM (#15623172)
That's not a nice thing to say.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by wallflower on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:10PM (#15621137)
> This isn't a remote problem. I see this _all_ the time with people at work now and I don't work remotely.

One solution that usually works for me is to get a standing workstation and use it. Not one of those fancy ones that go up and down. Just one that is permanently up, like the Ikea standing desk hack. For a break, you can move and sit somewhere else. Standing takes a lot more energy, so, it is my belief, that you focus better because if you are standing and goofing off, you are wasting precious energy. There are times where you don't have the energy to stand but need to work - so just sit. Standing and sitting is not a either/or thing. You don't have to be faithful to your standup desk, go slouch in a couch for a break.

The biggest difference between standing and sitting is that walking away from your workstation is friction-free. You just move your feet.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by jamaicahest on Saturday November 04, 2017 @10:22AM (#15625118)
>There are times where you don't have the energy to stand but need to work - so just sit

Then what's the point of not getting a table that can go up and down?

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by jjkk0101 on Saturday November 04, 2017 @05:01PM (#15626881)
I'd say it's just a matter of budget.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by wallflower on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @07:08PM (#15648953)
It is really more my perception that with a fixed standing desk, if I want to stop standing, I have to physically move a couple feet to my desk. Since there is no mechanical interlude involved with the desk undergoing a morphing, there is very low "switching cost". Also, I have a very nice desk that I'd still like to use.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by Ascetik on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:32PM (#15622016)
I 100% agree. Being disciplined at work is a personal issue. I find I work much more efficiently at home than in an office. People who are lazy are lazy because they haven't developed the rights habits and motivation to work properly and efficiently. I saw more slacking off in offices than anywhere else in my entire life.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by jjkk0101 on Saturday November 04, 2017 @05:06PM (#15626899)
Well, you don't see that at home b/c it's just you perhaps? Joke aside, I also notice there is a lot of slacking off in offices when people are required to do some face time.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by joslin01 on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:20PM (#15621219)
The difference is in rate, not occurrence hence the keyword "easy."
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by ZeroGravitas on Friday November 03, 2017 @10:09AM (#15619302)
> Not just that, but there's also the other side: Easy to procrastinate, easy to give false reports which then leads to regular overwork in the days just before a hard deadline.

That doesn't seem a problem unique to remote work. It's more about when tangible outputs are required from you.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by pessimizer on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:37PM (#15620443)
It's not unique, just exaggerated; the reality of people watching you requires some degree of tangible output, even if that output amounts to "they seem to be typing sometimes."
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by huehehue on Friday November 03, 2017 @11:18AM (#15619805)
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by throwawaywfh on Friday November 03, 2017 @11:14AM (#15619771)
>Easy to procrastinate, easy to give false reports which then leads to regular overwork in the days just before a hard deadline.

This is so, so true for me. I used to work in a place which had an office, but you wouldn't be expected to be there most of the time, just come in at least once a week, maybe for meetings, etc.

I used to procrastinate and report progress to my manager when there was much less. But since the work was deadline-based, I'd just grind through the weekend with little sleep and catch up with what I've reported. I've never missed a deadline, but I'm still feeling bad about doing it that way and misleading them.

Just to be clear, this was a long time ago, when I was just starting my professional career, and didn't yet have stronger ethics.

(Throwaway for obvious reasons, the employer I worked for at the time browse HN)

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by platetone on Friday November 03, 2017 @09:58AM (#15619251)
> easy to give false reports which then leads to regular overwork in the days just before a hard deadline.

Working from home for three years now as a software project contributor, this is my biggest problem. I always get my shit done, but it gets majorly stressful since daily family life goes on the same regardless of my self-inflicted work crunches. Pretty sure the tradeoffs are still worth it, though.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by booleandilemma on Friday November 03, 2017 @09:28AM (#15619010)
I think a good solution to this is to just mix it up. At my place we have a policy of working from home on Fridays and coming in the rest of the week. We get to have a day of not commuting, working in our pajamas, and still have plenty of time to be physically present in the office. As an added benefit, the workweek feels shorter.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by olyjohn on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:53PM (#15621016)
I was going to say this exact thing. Have a place for people to come meet up, do their in person things and allow for telecommuting. A blanket in-office or remote-only policy is just inflexible.

Being the IT guy, I have to be in the office a lot of the time, but having 1 or 2 days to focus on projects at home and have no walk-up interruptions is very helpful.

Besides, if I really don't want to work, it doesn't matter if I'm home or at the office. I am a champion at slacking in the office. I can stealthily alt-tab like a motherfucker, and I see you coming long before you can see my screen.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by sh87 on Friday November 03, 2017 @11:45AM (#15620033)
Indeed. Flexible hours should also be added in allowing people to decide with a fair degree of freedom the hours they want to work remotely and the hours they’d be better off at work. My commute times are worst during peak office hours i.e. 8-10am to and 5-7 pm from work. I would just choose to work from 7-10 from home, commute to work and drive back at about 3. That seems fairly balanced to me.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by richardknop on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:05PM (#15620641)
This sounds pretty ideal. I think 1-2 days of remote work per weeks is ideal. Still leaves enough days in office to have the face to face contact with colleagues and communicate directly.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by swat535 on Friday November 03, 2017 @09:29AM (#15619016)
I too have both in office and remote and I agree with all your points regarding working from home.

However I must confess that the downsides of working from the office majority outweighs the other.

I can no longer focus. I am constantly pulled into meetings. I have 120 minutes of commute everyday.

When I get home I am too tired and can no longer spend quality time with my partner like I did when I was working from home. And above all my sleeping schedule has to fit the 9-5 schedule and it is very hard to adjust.

I also have to deal with the heavy Canadian storms during winter.

In the future I'm choosing remote work at a heartbeat and might even consider a salary cut to get it.

YMMV.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by wpietri on Friday November 03, 2017 @10:11AM (#15619316)
> I can no longer focus. I am constantly pulled into meetings.

I think this is often an environment and culture problem. When I'm setting something up, I work hard to create spaces that minimize noise and distractions. And I think it's important to limit meetings, because they'll definitely expand to fill all time available. But most places don't bother with either of these, throwing people into noisy open offices and having a "meetings first" culture.

> I have 120 minutes of commute everyday. [...] When I get home I am too tired

This is the true killer for me. 15-30 minutes each way by foot, bike, or public transit? A pleasant part of my day, a useful demarcation between work and home. But an hour each way in a car and I begin to despair for my life.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by swat535 on Friday November 03, 2017 @11:12AM (#15619754)
I would really love to have those options but living in the Greater Toronto Area doesn't leave much room for those.

In addition we have some of the harshest winters with freeing black ice falling from sky :)

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by a-priori on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:23PM (#15621245)
Ottawa checking in. I think it's cute you think you have harsh winters. ;)
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by qyv on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:25PM (#15620353)
> I can no longer focus. I am constantly pulled into meetings.

If this behavior changes solely because you start working remotely it may not necessarily be to your advantage. Yes, in the short term you may maintain the ability to focus. However, in the long term you may find yourself being excluded and and diminished within the organization. These meetings, etc. don't stop when you work remotely, only those attending them do.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by jimmaswell on Friday November 03, 2017 @11:42AM (#15620015)
>And when your entire company works from home, as mine did, you develop a culture of acting like there is no better choice, and the benefits of your personal flexibility at home outweigh any problems at work... causing people to not fight very hard to fix problems, and to stay in those jobs longer than they should because of how comfortable the working situation is.

On the flip side, when your entire company works from offices, you develop a culture of acting like there is no better choice, and the resistance to change outweighs its obsoletence, causing people to not fight very hard to evolve the workplace, and to accept offices longer than they should.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by qyv on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:18PM (#15620305)
One key difference being that, when you see people every day, it is much easier to measure, manage and mitigate this behavior.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by pessimizer on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:34PM (#15620424)
I believe the parent comment was referring to actual material problems with work tasks, not a lack of "evolution," nor a theoretical obsolescence of the overwhelmingly dominant form of workplace organization.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by wordpressdev on Friday November 03, 2017 @08:33AM (#15618626)
After working from home for 10 years, I am now seriously looking for opportunities where I can commute to work. Have to get out of the comfort zone.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by TomK32 on Friday November 03, 2017 @09:09AM (#15618875)
I manages 7 years and will start an office job on Monday which I'm looking forward for: collegues and stuff like that is something I missed a lot.

The commute? 10 minutes on the bicycle. There's a song by Tripod about the distances between home, work and shops being your triangle of hapiness. Not that serious, but it has some substance of truth https://3pod.bandcamp.com/track/triangle-of-happiness

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by saas_co_de on Friday November 03, 2017 @10:54AM (#15619612)
The vast majority of time spent by office employees is socializing and non-productive ritual work.

Since the purpose of going to the office is not to do actual work being able to work from home has not removed the need for the office.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by marcc on Friday November 03, 2017 @11:47AM (#15620049)

  The vast majority of time spent by office employees is socializing and non-productive ritual work.
Do you have any links or sources to back this up?
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by FullMtlAlcoholc on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:00PM (#15620159)
From a UK Bureau of Labor and Stats study, the average office worker is only productive for ~3 hours/day. People spend the majority of their time surfing the internet, socializing, eating/drinking, and looking for a new job. I wonder if it's worse in east asian countries where no one leaves before the boss.

Source: https://www.vouchercloud.com/blog/office-worker-productivity...

The last time I worked in an office, I got most of my work done in the morning or after 6pm when no one was in the office.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by sh87 on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:02PM (#15620176)
I can vouch for that statement. A daily standup that exceeds 30 mins, a grooming and planning meeting that extends all 8 hours of a day in a sprint with unclear stories, surprise bug triage meetings ranging between 30 mins to 2 hrs, meetings where I cant possibly contribute, updating user stories with questions about the story, convincing people on why we shouldn’t be working on backend and ui without well defined contracts all account for over 30% to 60% of my time on a team with over 4 members.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by chrxr on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:36PM (#15620434)
It seems like you are highlighting business process / management problems rather than workspace problem. In my experience web conferences / hangouts overrun just as often as physical meetings. Are you suggesting that these meetings just wouldn't happen if people were not in the office, or that they would somehow be more efficient? If the latter, how might this be the case?
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by sh87 on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:20PM (#15620760)
I am presenting instances of non productive rituals/tasks that constantly eat up my working hours. Working remotely allows me to mentally disconnect from such meetings and partially get mundane work tasks done e.g. reports, running testcases, emails to other teams, fix minor bugs, etc. which i constantly fail at when in a room with other physical people. Kinda sucks when i describe it that way but true.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by sh87 on Friday November 03, 2017 @11:54AM (#15620113)
I feel most management folks box reportees into ‘talkers’ and ‘doers’. I see a lot more talkers these days being encouraged at the expense of the doers.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by kilroy123 on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:01PM (#15622181)
This is why I work at a co-working space. I'll mix it up with some cafe working as well.

1) I get out of the house and I just seem to focus much more there at the office.

2) I feel like a normal human going to an office and talking to others. (Maybe I don't always talk to others, but I can if I want.)

3) When I want to be lazy and just stay home, I just do.

4) Co-working space or cafe is just a 2-15 minute walk away. No commute in a car.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by happypanda on Friday November 03, 2017 @03:14PM (#15621571)
I've been working from home for 6 years and am currently looking for a job I can commute to. I am productive at home but I miss the camaraderie that an office setting provides. Human interaction is important to me and it took 6 years of working from home, feeling isolated, to figure that out.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by enraged_camel on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:01PM (#15621835)
I used to feel this way, until I realized that the real problem was my lack of a good social life outside of work. Once I took care of that (meetup.com is great) I stopped yearning for office camaraderie. In fact I find it a bit annoying now - everyone I work with has kids so that's all they talk about, whereas my social circle is full of people with similar interests as me.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by psj on Friday November 03, 2017 @09:12AM (#15618903)
This describes my experience very accurately. Eventually one can build one's life around the personal flexibility working at home offers, and that can add (even more) real resistance to change, even if change is what might be best.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by jetti on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:00PM (#15621830)
>it is easy to become a hermit.

I worked from home full time for about 3 years then moved to a job that had about 1.5 hour commute each way. One of the reasons I took the job was the fact that I did feel like a hermit. I then started to resent the commute. I'm lucky that I have been able to work out a deal with my current employer where I work from home 2 days a week and come in to the office 3 days a week. This gives me a nice break from the commute but I also don't end up feeling like a hermit.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by wpietri on Friday November 03, 2017 @09:43AM (#15619124)
Excellent points. One further thought:

> if you have personal discipline, good co-workers, and great leadership

I agree this is true, and have seen a couple of high-functioning distributed teams. But a question for me: if we have those things, do we want to spend them on working from home? Personally, I'd rather have a modest commute and spend our discipline and leadership points on solving a problem in the world.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by wolco on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:03PM (#15620627)
If you removed that perk those high functioning team members may not be able to produce at the same level at the office. Those leadership points may not go as far because you have to deal with a host of other issues. There are less sexual assaults and unwanted touching in purely remote teams. Less conflicts with culture, race and gender. Issues like Jim's lunch smells and is making Jan sick or Bob talk too loudly to clients on the phone beside Jim can he stopped.

Working from home can make a manager feel less control. It takes a different type of leadership. But requires less leadership points.

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by s73ver_ on Friday November 03, 2017 @01:15PM (#15620726)
I feel the first few issues can be greatly alleviated by simply taking those issues seriously, making it known that kind of behavior simply isn't tolerated, and following through if those things ever come up. That last one is the key, there. I don't know any workplace that doesn't say they take those things seriously, but actions speak louder than words, and if you're not prepared to terminate people who behave in that manner, then you're not taking it seriously.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by wpietri on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:11PM (#15622840)
I've tried it both ways, and I definitely find it easier to lead people in person. I learn so much from implicit communication in person that has to become carefully explicit when remote.

I also think the sexual assaults thing is a terrible red herring. Remote teams still should get together regularly, and abusers will happily abuse then. For that matter, abusers are perfectly capable of being abusive remotely. (Exhibit A: the internet.)

Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by agumonkey on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:05PM (#15621853)
What amazes me is how with age, places mean emotions. Before I enjoyed having everything at hand in one place. Context switching happened for free. Now I enjoy having a place where I can go deep into a thing, then a place where I can relax, etc etc
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by WalterBright on Friday November 03, 2017 @06:26PM (#15622582)
One option I've done is 2 days at home / 3 days in the office.
Re:Why Do We Still Commute? by SNIPERBABY on Friday November 03, 2017 @03:18PM (#15621600)
I hate the commute as well! What a waste of life!