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Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by jwdunne on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:14AM (#15565876)
This isn't a stretch to believe. I'm British too.

We did something similar with India. We also allowed the Irish famine to happen too.

History does say we were not a very kind empire - causing famine was not beyond us.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by satya71 on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:22AM (#15565896)
I was under the impression that British schools still teach that colonies actually benefited from British occupation. Looks like you went out of the way to learn the reality. Kudos!
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by asveikau on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:39AM (#15565974)
At some point, maybe ten years ago, I realized that with the internet today it's sometimes incredibly easy to see and expose national biases...

One of the tricks I came up with back then: Look up any Wikipedia article on US involvement in Latin America. Change the language from English to Spanish. Same topic. Sometimes vastly different reality.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by mkempe on Friday October 27, 2017 @11:10AM (#15569132)
That is indeed one major, unsung positive of Wikipedia's multi-lingual system.

I do it regularly (across a couple of languages other than English) when reading about current events, cultural artifacts, political entities, and most of all history.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by twostoned on Friday October 27, 2017 @11:31AM (#15569365)
This makes multilingualism seems incredibly important (which I think it is)
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by tigershark on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:39AM (#15565975)
It depends from case to case, you can't generalise. Ask people in Hong Kong if they prefer to be part of China instead of a British colony for example.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by kelukelugames on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:56AM (#15566037)
A fairer comparison would be between autonomy vs British colony.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by NotSammyHagar on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:10AM (#15566308)
The fariest comparison is all 3: ruled by China, British colony, autonomy. Clearly they'd prefer to not be in China.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by coldtea on Friday October 27, 2017 @11:32AM (#15569374)
Depends on when you asked them.

And who you ask -- eg. the homeless living in unimaginable slums might give a different answer.

That said, most of the colonies fought hard for getting rid of the British.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by timthelion on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:14AM (#15567299)
Well, that's not really a comparison at all. "Would you like to be a colony of evil empire A or evil empire B?"
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by andy_ppp on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:27AM (#15565919)
It’s just not mentioned anymore... at least in state schools. We will look back at the American empire just as fondly I’m sure.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by stuaxo on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:48AM (#15566706)
They certainly didn't where I went to school, in the 80s. It really wouldn't surprise me if this was the case in some schools now though.

We've basically semi-privatised a lot of our schools under the academy system - they are run like businesses and have a lot more freedom over the curriculum leading to all sorts of horror stories.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by triplesec on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:49AM (#15566953)
Horror story linky?
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by jwdunne on Saturday October 28, 2017 @03:05AM (#15574276)
That wasn't my experience, though we didn't cover the empire specifically. In fact, each term or so was based on a theme that covered a period e.g Tudors, Victorians, ancient Egypt, ancient Rome.

I also went to a Catholic faith school so I think there was already good reason to be honest with history. England was not very kind to Catholics either - apparently a BBC show demonstrates this quite well.

My learnings about the empire have been through personal curiosity. At first, the whole "largest empire in history" was a curiosity. The more I learned, however, the more disgusted I became.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by willyt on Friday October 27, 2017 @09:24AM (#15567999)
When I studied history, quite a few British schools didn’t teach history as a timeline it was more like a series of case studies, which were designed to help you understand primacy of sources and how to analyse information. I studied History of Medicine, the Blitz in my local area, Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland, the Plains Indians in the US. So, for me, colonialism would have only come up as part of the discussion of the context for Bloody Sunday.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by rapsey on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:05AM (#15566072)
The world is not black and white. The british built infrastructure that is still being used today. Like their railway system. They also educated the populace.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by rohit2412 on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:39AM (#15566208)
Railways to take away raw materials.

Educated? India's literacy rate in 1947 was 12%

Look at british literacy rate when they became a big empire. https://www1.umassd.edu/ir/resources/laboreducation/literacy...

Even though it might be because of industrialization and not colonization, India could have industrialized faster without being a colonial subject.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by celticninja on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:46AM (#15566697)
Swings and roundabouts really, not everything they did was bad and not everything was good.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by 0ld on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:03AM (#15567015)
That's a poor excuse all the colonizators and invaders always use - "We buit something there! We brought good and civilization to the wild bloodthirsty pagans! White man's burden anyone?"

Not really. Locals would build it as well, just maybe later. Technology spreads disregarding the governments or countries.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by prebrov on Friday October 27, 2017 @09:33AM (#15568071)
No intent to belittle any nation’s effort, but technology doesn’t spread evenly.

Technological advances secured West’s domination over much of the world for centuries, despite having smaller population. Competitors were brought to submission using superior technology — China (Opium wars), Native Americans, Japan (WW II) and nearly every case I can think of.

So, sooner is massively better than later.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by rohit2412 on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:10PM (#15570273)
Considering that India is still industrializing, I'd argue 1 century later is massively better than 4 century later.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by rapsey on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:15AM (#15567061)
I said the world is not black and white. I did not say colonization was good or better than if it did not happen. The end situation was not universally bad. Some benefits remained. Anyone saying the countries would be in a better state now without colonization is speaking entirely out of their ass. Just like anyone saying the countries are better off as a result of it.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by ionised on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:06AM (#15566531)
A lot of British people (over 60% when polled I believe) are convinced that our Empire was a positive thing overall for the world. They tend to gloss over the uncomfortable parts.

I find it the most disgusting aspect of my country and its people. Nationalism at its worst.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by unabridged on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:32AM (#15566877)
As horrible as they were, the British Empire probably was a positive influence on the world. Without them I doubt we would be able to have a conversation 1000s of miles away right now.

The same argument can be made for the Roman Empire. Empires of the past are looked down on because they are a unified machine of violence, a center of evil we can point to and hate.

Creating civilization is brutal, but the alternative is much scarier. A world of tribes and decentralized violence & oppression toward no end. Just as much pain, but not recorded, all in vain.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by ionised on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:55AM (#15567513)
This sounds very much like the 'white man's burden' of having a moral obligation to 'civilise savages'.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by dontlikeitupem on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:41AM (#15567724)
Isn't it? Should we have allowed the Indians to call on such savage practice as suttee? One of the greater horrors of post colonial sub continent africa is how little education reached the populace and the savage beliefs that perpetuate atrocities even now. Imagine if we had been able to teach them that they didn't need to kill and mutilate albinos for example?
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by boomboomsubban on Friday October 27, 2017 @09:34AM (#15568079)
The West was still full of savage practices when suttee was outlawed, and the millions killed by colonialism outweigh the lives saved by this "education."
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by dontlikeitupem on Friday October 27, 2017 @12:39PM (#15569978)
In these countries, as the population trends towards the billions, we will see the ongoing benefits of education.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by boomboomsubban on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:13PM (#15571835)
If you're talking that kind of time frame, education did not require colonialism.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by timthelion on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:16AM (#15567317)
Is civilization even good? Civilization seems to be on track to destroy everything and everyone: http://www.businessinsider.com/germany-insect-population-fly...
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by dang on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:36PM (#15570519)
Please don't post unsubstantive comments or (especially) take threads in generic directions. Signal/noise gets steadily worse when you do that because people have fewer substantive things to say and get louder about them.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by Chris2048 on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:11AM (#15567280)
Are you glossing over the uncomfortable parts of the empire that had nothing to do with the British? The world wasn't great before the Empire came (a lot of it was under some other empire anyway) - The Brits did record a lot of their atrocities though, meaning there is an informational bias.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by weavie on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:06AM (#15566786)
It is amazing how uneducated a supposedly educated population can actually be. I know a lot of people here who would only have a vague idea that we even used to have an empire, most likely based on some period drama they watched on television.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by irrational on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:35AM (#15565955)
It wasn't just you. The other European colonization efforts likewise destroyed the lives of millions of people. I always get a chuckle when I see Europeans deriding the American Empire. Pot calling the kettle black much?
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by gibberfish on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:51AM (#15566463)
Except the overwhelming majority of Europeans alive today, including those in power, have come of age at a time when their country's colonial efforts were already a thing of the past, so it's hardly fair to throw them in with their parents' or grandparents' generation.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by kbart on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:10AM (#15566101)
" I always get a chuckle when I see Europeans deriding the American Empire. Pot calling the kettle black much?"

You can't put all European countries in a single pot here, only a small part of them were leading empires. Most of other countries/nations were incorporated in empires against their will and suffered greatly too.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by celticninja on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:54AM (#15566734)
Yeah, England, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands and France were the main colonial powers, which is why it seems a bit unfair to blame the British, which includes Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland, who were just as poorly treated by the English.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by hutzlibu on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:46AM (#15566698)
Hm ... Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Dutch, Austria, Russia ... just come to my mind, when I think of european empires.

So what "most other nations" are left, except for some easterns states?

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by kbart on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:56AM (#15566742)
There are 50 sovereign countries in Europe[0], you named 9, so that just illustrates my point. And that doesn't even include nations that have no independence, often taken away during reigning of neighboring empire.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by hutzlibu on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:38PM (#15571042)
Those I named, had by far the majority of the european people in them. And what is your point linking to current european states, when were speaking of historic europe?

And that not all the people them were happy patriots, sure - thats common in empires. (and I don't like empires btw.) But the ordinary person was pretty much pro empire at that time. And that meant also conquering and ruling other nations and people.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by Zigurd on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:42PM (#15570577)
You left out the Duchy of Kurland and Semigallia, now part of Latvia, who had a colony in Africa. Everyone can play.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by raverbashing on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:14AM (#15566115)
And the next world power is China, let's see how they will do
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by philippeback on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:29AM (#15566171)
They are buying lots of land in Europe that is for sure.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by raverbashing on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:49AM (#15566711)
Don't forget their current investments in Africa
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by baxtr on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:33AM (#15566186)
Which big empire was not like this?
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by baud147258 on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:53AM (#15566469)
The European colonization build countries from nothing, forming an upper class which led the decolonization effort and formed the leading class of the new countries. So there might have lives destroyed, but there were also lives created.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by ionised on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:01AM (#15566507)
> I always get a chuckle when I see Europeans deriding the American Empire. Pot calling the kettle black much?

Firstly, Europe is not a country, it is a continent of countries and many did not partake in colonialism. Referring to Europe as one homogenous group is one reason Americans are derided, because it is ignorant.

Secondly, the US has an unhealthy superiority complex and considers itself exceptional among all other nations, despite being pretty much the same as any other Empire that has existed in the past.

The fact that (to an outside observer) they consider themselves immune to the weakness that destroyed previous superpowers is another reason they are derided, because those weaknesses are pretty apparent to anyone who isn't a flag-waving jingoist fanatic.

Thirdly, those countries that did engage on colonialism no longer do and the people living there today have basically nothing to do with it. They deride Americans because they are in fact engaging in colonial-type practices today, despite the lessons of the past.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by dithering on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:22AM (#15567341)
> Secondly, the US has an unhealthy superiority complex and considers itself exceptional among all other nations

It is an exception (I speak as a European). It was the last of the great powers, and the first to figure out that a loan is a better weapon than a gun. The American empire is qualitatively different from all European empires.

> They deride Americans because they are in fact engaging in colonial-type practices today, despite the lessons of the past.

Don't kid yourself that Europeans just happened to learn how immoral empire is at the exact moment their empires fell apart. It's more like the Americans figured out (lucked into?) a better form of empire, and nobody could compete with their first-mover advantage.

We'll see if China can outcompete America at its own game, I guess.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by irrational on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:49PM (#15570645)
>Firstly, Europe is not a country, it is a continent of countries and many did not partake in colonialism. Referring to Europe as one homogenous group is one reason Americans are derided, because it is ignorant.

Aren't you being just as ignorant when you talk about Americans as one homogeneous group? Just because it is one country doesn't mean each state isn't as distinct as every country in the EU. Alabama and Oregon are as different as France and Slovakia.

>Secondly, the US has an unhealthy superiority complex and considers itself exceptional among all other nations, despite being pretty much the same as any other Empire that has existed in the past.

There are places in the US where a lot of people feel this way, but in my experience the majority don't feel this way. At least where I live most people have traveled extensively outside the US and don't feel superior. Again your are ignorantly lumping all Americans together and imply that we all feel the same way when really it's just a vocal minority in certain states.

>Thirdly, those countries that did engage on colonialism no longer do and the people living there today have basically nothing to do with it.

That doesn't mean anything. White Americans today have basically nothing to do with black slavery, yet we still have to face the consequences of what white americans did in the past. In fact I've research my family history down every line back to when they came to the new world, and I know for a fact that none of my ancestors were involved in slavery. But as a white american I don't get a free pass on slavery just because I can prove I and mine had nothing to do with it.

Likewise, as a European, you don't get a free pass on colonialism just because it wasn't you specifically that participated in it. People today are still suffering as a result of your past colonialist actions and policies.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by Pica_soO on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:15AM (#15567062)
>Thirdly, those countries that did engage on colonialism no >longer do and the people living there today have basically >nothing to do with it.

Right having, companys to do it for you, with support of bribed locals- moral advances- they are basically more abstraction layers to the horrors.

Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by tadhgf on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:31AM (#15567668)
I would say the British did more than just allow the famine to happen. Exporting grain from Ireland during the famine caused the deaths of thousands. http://ighm.org/exports-in-famine-times/
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by jwdunne on Saturday October 28, 2017 @03:01AM (#15574270)
I couldn't remember the specifics but I was going to say something a bit more charged i.e directly made it worse. I wasn't sure if it was a similar deal to the Indian famine but clearly was.
Re:How to Read the JFK Assassination Files by mmjaa on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:26PM (#15570960)
The point is, you (your nation state) are still doing it.