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Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by michaelt on Monday September 25, 2017 @11:22AM (#15331163)
I read an interesting forum post about Sears a few years back [1]

TLDR: In 1985 Sears had vast mail order experience, co-founded an ISP (Prodigy), and had their own credit cards (Discover). All the components they'd need to dominate online retail. In 1993 they closed their mail order division. In 1995, Amazon launched.

[1] http://www.metafilter.com/62394/The-Record-Industrys-Decline...

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by jasode on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:24PM (#15331725)
>In 1993 they closed their mail order division. In 1995, Amazon launched.

If one compresses the timeline, it does seem like Amazon killed off Sears when in reality, Sears was already getting killed off in the 10 years before 1995.

In the 1980s...

- Home Depot, Lowes, Builders Square, etc home improvement stores were taking away business from Sears power tools (Craftsman)

- Best Buy and Circuit City were taking the consumer electronics business and appliances. Less customers buy Sears Kenmore.

- Target, Walmart, Williams-Sonoma, etc were taking housewares (pots, pans, etc) business

- consumers (especially kids) didn't want "department store brand" clothing from Sears/JCPenney because they were "uncool". They wanted the boutique brands (Guess jeans, Calvin Klein, etc)

- peak mall traffic was 1986 and malls started dying off after that. An easy way for me to remember that point in time is the 1985 movie "Back to The Future". When you watch the DeLorean spinning around the parking lot of Twin Pines Mall, remind yourself that you're seeing "peak mall".

- credit-cards criteria were loosened and easy credit was expanded. Sears no longer had a captive audience with the Sears credit-card that kept shoppers within Sears' "walled-garden". Before 1990s, if a young person had zero credit history, one of the first credit cards one attempted to get was the "Sears department store credit card". Once one built up credit history with it, he/she could then try to get Visa/Mastercard. In the meantime, they used the Sears card to spend money at Sears. To contrast the difference, today an 18-year-old college student can get a Visa/MC without a parent as a cosigner. That type of easy credit approval for a person with no job was unheard of in the 1960s/1970s.

There were lots of competitive forces that Sears' management didn't respond to long before Jeff Bezos arrived on the scene.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by Steko on Monday September 25, 2017 @04:39PM (#15333930)
Ben Thompson goes all the way back to 1962 to chart the forces that would end up killing Sears:

1962 was perhaps the most consequential year in retailing history: in Ohio the five-and-dime retailer F.W. Woolworth Company created a new discount retailer called Woolco; S.S. Kresge Corporation created Kmart in Michigan; the Dayton Company opened the first Target in Minnesota; and Sam Walton founded the first Walmart. All four were based on the same premise: branded goods didn’t need the expensive overhead of mass merchandisers, which meant prices could be lower. Lower prices served in turn as a powerful draw for customers, driving higher volumes, which meant more inventory turns, which increased profitability.

Sears, which had introduced a huge number of those brands to America’s middle class, first through their catalog and then through a massive post-World War II expansion into physical retail, was stuck in the middle: higher prices than the discounters, but much less differentiation than high-end department stores. By the time Buldak gave his statement the company’s fate as an also-ran was sealed, even though no one at Sears had a clue: Buldak’s stated mission of being “an integrated, powerful specialty merchant, with brand names and our own lines of exclusive merchandise” failed to consider whether customers gave a damn.

https://stratechery.com/2016/walmart-and-the-multichannel-tr...

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by chipperyman573 on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:44PM (#15331921)
>today an 18-year-old college student can get a Visa/MC without a parent as a cosigner.

FWIW, when I was 18 I had to get a secured card[0] and I was barely able to get it (I had to go to my bank twice to appeal the decision). It's definitely different from 40 years ago but it's not super easy for most college students, and a lot of it came down to the fact that I had a few grand sitting in a checking account and a job that paid $12.50/hr. Some of my friends who didn't have that got flat out declined multiple times (I have one friend who has applied for three different cards and she's been denied all three times, with no credit history at all).

[0]: Basically, the card had a $500 credit limit and you had to give the bank $500 for a year, after a year if you've made all your payments they give you your $500 back. It still sat in my savings account generating "interest", but I couldn't spend it

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by aidenn0 on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:34PM (#15332340)
When did you turn 18? I started college in August 1999 and nobody I knew had any trouble getting a credit card. Many fraternities and sororities used credit card applications to freshmen as fundraisers. It was typically a $1000-$1500 credit limit. Some people I knew had $10k in credit card debt by the time they graduated...
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by chipperyman573 on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:39PM (#15332383)
I turned 18 about two years ago. Things might be different now because of the credit CARD act of 2009 which makes it slightly harder to take advantage of younger people (giving a $1500 card to people who have never had credit before and don't know how important it is to pay off the balance in full seems particularly evil)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_CARD_Act_of_2009

>Consumers under the age of 21 must prove that they have an independent income or get a co-signer before applying for a credit card. The Act also prevents credit card companies from ... wooing students with T-shirts, free pizza and other free gifts at university-sponsored events

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by aidenn0 on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:41PM (#15332401)
Well at least the interest rate was only around 30% </s>.

[edit] The end of the story for me:

The credit card I got from that was amazingly bad. I had a bill put in the wrong mailbox in my dorm, so didn't get it until 3 days before it was due. I called up customer service:

Me: I can mail this today, but it is unlikely to make it there by the due date, I've always paid my bills on time, can I get a 1 week extension

CS: We can do an ACH for $20 or you will pay a late fee if the check you mail is even a day late.

Me: Seriously?

CS: Yes

Me: Okay, do that and cancel my account.

CS: Okay.

It's like they didn't even want me as a customer if I was going to pay my bills every week. Not a single attempt to retain me when I canceled my account. At this point, I had a Discover card, the CS reps for which were very kind, and my bank had just gotten my debit card on the Mastercard network (previously it was only an ATM card), so I had no absolute need for their card. Had this happened a few months earlier I might not have been willing to cancel as so many places don't take Discover.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by jldugger on Monday September 25, 2017 @08:09PM (#15335187)
> It's like they didn't even want me as a customer if I was going to pay my bills every week.

I semi-suspect you know this, but if you pay in full every month, they don't get to bundle your debt up and sell it off as a security. Interchange fees are competitive enough that it's probably close to break even (and getting more so every year), but the securities are comparatively pretty sweet for the issuers.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by stevekemp on Tuesday September 26, 2017 @09:00AM (#15338196)
While you're probably correct its worth remembering that credit-card companies get their money from both sides:

* They earn money via the interest people way if they don't settle their bills in-full, and on-time.

* But they also take money for handling transactions at terminals, etc.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by astura on Monday September 25, 2017 @11:17PM (#15335863)
>Things might be different now because of the credit CARD act of 2009 which makes it slightly harder to take advantage of younger people

No "might" or "slightly" about it. It's significantly different now. When I was 18 you only needed a faint pulse to get 10s of thousands of dollars in credit. People would hand out credit applications in dorm rooms, at events, in front of classrooms, just anywhere and everywhere you could think of. It was a different time.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by QML on Monday September 25, 2017 @08:25PM (#15335264)
While I did not get woo’ed, sadly enough, to get an unsecured credit card with Bank of America, all I needed to do was enter my personal information and some notion of income (without verification).

In less than a minute, BoA’s automated credit card application approved me and mailed out a $1000 limit card.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by dmoy on Monday September 25, 2017 @02:20PM (#15332719)
Yea this stuff changed drastically over the last 10 years. I got credit card limit that were like almost half of my (very low) annual income in 2007 with almost no history, while 4 years later my coworkers pulling >150k/yr couldn't get any credit card without doing the secured bullshit.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by khedoros1 on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:58PM (#15334534)
My brother-in-law got his first card in his early 20s, and around 2009. He had to go the route of getting a secured credit card, too. In his case, the issue was probably that he was trying to go for his first credit during the recession. He married my sister in 2010; they got their first apartment based on his income, but on her credit rating.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by jldugger on Monday September 25, 2017 @08:04PM (#15335167)
There was a change back in like 2006 or something that made it harder for college kids to get credit -- have to demonstrate income, which as we know most don't. Conversely, when I was in college creditors were mass calling dorms to get signups. One kinda tricked me into "allowing them to send me an application in the mail" and a pre-approved credit card showed up instead. I never used it till a few years after I got a paying gig, but it did kinda work as a means of building credit via account age.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by curun1r on Monday September 25, 2017 @06:08PM (#15334610)
Had you taken on college loans? I know that's how I established my credit and, once I had that in my history, they were all to happy to give me a card with an absurd limit (for me, at the time, with only a work-study job) with little more than my name and SSN.

It seems strange that taking on a ton of unsecured debt would make creditors think it's more likely that you'll be able to pay off even more unsecured debt, but that seems to be how the system works, or at least worked two decades ago when I was in school. Perhaps the emergence of for-profit colleges that don't really offer their graduates the kind of post-schooling opportunities that traditional colleges do has changed the way that college loans are perceived since they no longer reliably predict future earnings the way they used to.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by nnutter on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:35PM (#15332349)
Anecdotally, when I went appliance shopping 8 years ago I went to Sears not Best Buy. When I went tool shopping I preferred the lifetime guarantee of Craftsman. I wasn’t a pre-existing customer. I live within ~30 minutes of three large malls that all seem to be doing well. There is a Sears Hardware store that just closed in the last couple years.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by jschwartzi on Monday September 25, 2017 @02:01PM (#15332571)
I bought a pretty good mattress and also a good vacuum from Sears. They're not high-end but they're pretty damn good.

The only reason I had a vacuum at all in college was because Sears still stocked parts for 10 or 15 year old vacuums so I was able to repair someone's broken vacuum.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by Animats on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:06PM (#15333086)
Sears owned Orchard Supply Hardware from 1996 to 2012. They never branded it as "Sears", though. "Sears Hardware" is a franchise, like Ace Hardware.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by khedoros1 on Monday September 25, 2017 @06:07PM (#15334592)
I went appliance shopping there too, around the same time. Cheap-ish fridge that's still going strong, and an LG washer and dryer (LG repaired the washer under warranty last year). The Sears I bought them from was razed a couple of years ago.

There are some "Sears home appliance showrooms", and an actual Sears about half an hour away, but there used to be 3 or 4 in that same area.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by johnbrodie on Tuesday September 26, 2017 @12:18PM (#15340042)
The "lifetime guarantee" of Craftsman just doesn't have much sway anymore. All of their tools are made in China junk that breaks if you look at it funny. The quality is just non-existent these days. Might as well just go to Harbor Freight if that's the kind of tool you need.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by damnstraight on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:56PM (#15332516)
> consumers (especially kids) didn't want "department store brand" clothing from Sears/JCPenney because they were "uncool"

FWIW all my clothes were from Sears and JCPenney, my taste be damned. I know a lot of other kids my age (grew up in the 90s and 00s) were the same way, at least until quality tanked in the mid 00s.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by WalterBright on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:02PM (#15334113)
I still buy my jeans from JCPenny. Of course, I never was cool and still ain't.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by jasode on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:09PM (#15334182)
These days, a store brand of clothes with respectable cachet is "Kirkland" from Costco. Basics like Kirkland jeans, underwear, sweatshirts, etc. I don't know if the kids like them, but a lot of adults wear Kirkland with pride. (Sort of like a billionaire driving an ecogreen Toyota Prius... an adult wearing Kirkland as a badge signaling "I shop at Costco which means I can afford Ralph Lauren but I'm smart enough to know that Kirkland is better quality for the money.")
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by bluedino on Monday September 25, 2017 @02:51PM (#15332944)
You might not have been 'cool' but you were a step above the kids who's "mommas shopped at Kmart"
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by damnstraight on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:09PM (#15333126)
Actually (I got clothes there too) I wouldn't say the quality was much worse. The shirts, underwear, socks, etc were all fine for a kid.

Nonetheless, I had those quality jeans—you're absolutely right.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by rdtsc on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:08PM (#15333102)
> peak mall traffic was 1986 and malls started dying off after that.

One of my American relatives worked for Sears mail order business from the early '80s till it closed. They were saying in the '80s it was an awesome place to work, good benefits, there was so much potential there it seemed.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by LaikaF on Tuesday September 26, 2017 @12:04PM (#15339877)
Discover is still the easiest card for a student / young person to get without a cosigner. I used one to build up credit to get an Amazon Visa.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by elvirs on Monday September 25, 2017 @09:02PM (#15335391)
there were credit cards in 70-ies?
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by astura on Monday September 25, 2017 @11:36PM (#15335937)
Yes

MasterCard (then known as Master Charge): http://i.imgur.com/BzZONEG.jpg

Visa (then known as Bank Americard): http://creditcardforum.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/b...

AMEX: https://i.pinimg.com/236x/15/6c/5d/156c5d0e135a6f2014a95608e...

Fun fact, American Express still to this day uses the name Charles F Frost (usually written C F Frost) for all their credit card ads. He was an advertising executive in the 60s.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by ChuckMcM on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:20PM (#15331666)
Sears is a textbook case of the evolution of a company. As the Atlantic points out they were really successful at capturing trends, but what Sear's secret was they were building infrastructure that let them respond to changes quickly.

Then sometime between 1975 and 1985 they seem to have started thinking they were successful because they were 'the best' and took their eye off the core competencies that made them nimble (logistics, accountable management practices) That is according to people who worked there at that time. Suddenly people who should not have been promoted (they weren't 'Sears people') were being promoted, and things were focused less on operations and more on public image.

The challenge is that you start managing to the effect rather than the cause. It is like companies that spend all of their time doing 'market research' and spend their time trying to be better than their perceived competitors at what their competitors are doing. They lose sight of why they were doing so well in the first place. "chasing your tail", "following the followers", lots of names for it, but they were being challenged by many up and coming brick and mortar competitors (K-Mart, Target, Walmart, Montgomery Wards, Etc.) By worrying about those threats they forgot to watch for the changes in the market, and that led to a lot of what would be difficult pain.

And yes, it is "easy" to see that looking backwards in time at their choices, but even in the 70's and 80's there were voices telling them that they were not focused on the right problems.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by njarboe on Monday September 25, 2017 @02:53PM (#15332964)
They also moved from their old headquarters to the Sears Tower in 1973/74. Uprooting the whole physical social dynamic of a company to move to a new headquarters often does not go well. Good luck Apple.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by WalterBright on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:06PM (#15334155)
My father (economics professor) said you can date the start of a company's demise from when they build a palace for a headquarters.

For one thing, the design of the palace becomes a huge distraction for top management. Once they move in, they start to believe they are the godlike businessman the palace suggests they are.

Yeah, the Apple saucer is a big risk.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by kevinmchugh on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:37PM (#15334391)
Is there a name for the phenomenon of companies building themselves a headquarters right as they begin to fail? I've heard that idea before, but haven't been able to find either a name for it, or any data on it.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by nostrademons on Monday September 25, 2017 @07:52PM (#15335124)
"Edifice complex"

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=edifice%20com...

The urbandictionary link refers specifically to college presidents & universities, but there've been a few articles about how it applies to corporations as well.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by dredmorbius on Monday September 25, 2017 @06:10PM (#15334618)
I seem to recall hearing that myself. Steve Blank has "The Curse of the a Building":

https://steveblank.com/2009/05/15/supermac-war-story-11-the-...

There's the economy-wide skyscraper curse:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2009-03/16/content_758...

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by HarryHirsch on Monday September 25, 2017 @09:13PM (#15335429)
In the German Language you'd say "Buddenbrooks syndrome". The phenomenon is as old as the ages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddenbrooks

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by jedberg on Monday September 25, 2017 @07:48PM (#15335111)
The thing Apple has going for it is that they already build a headquarters a long time ago, and also outgrew it a long time ago. Their employees are already used to working in buildings near but not in the headquarters, and being moved around in and out of the HQ campus.

Also, the new HQ is only a mile from the old one and they're going to keep the old one too.

So it's not the huge cultural shift of a new HQ -- it's more like just a new set of buildings.

It's true, they spent a lot of money making a nice new HQ, but not even 1/2 the employees will move into it.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by agumonkey on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:26PM (#15333282)
You mean that the actual physical habits of people are factors to consider ? And if those aren't recreated, the work won't go as well ?
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by njarboe on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:12PM (#15334203)
I read an article about it many years ago. Who you bump into and are physically near can create and maintain certain workflows and company culture. This was probably more important before personal computers and the internet. You are likely to have lunch with people you see and different business units can cross fertilize with greater ease. Moving from an organically grown bunch of buildings near each other, to a huge building with only elevator access to each floor, will change how people interact quite a bit.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by wahern on Monday September 25, 2017 @08:57PM (#15335374)
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/241/...

"Act 14" on this This American Life episode tells the story of what happened when the Vienna Sausage Company moved production to a new, purpose-built facility. If you'd rather read than listen, scroll down to "Act Fourteen" here, https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/241/...

It arguably exemplifies precisely what you're saying, except in a much more literal fashion.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by rhizome on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:31PM (#15332305)
Then sometime between 1975 and 1985

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_history_of_private_equit...

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by marcosdumay on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:59PM (#15333578)
You mean that easy money was the problem?
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by cat199 on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:58PM (#15332533)
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by xigency on Monday September 25, 2017 @11:39AM (#15331317)
I've read this point in a few places as well, but it doesn't really explain why they closed the catalog.

Here I found an article from 1993 describing the move: http://www.nytimes.com/1993/01/26/business/sears-eliminating...

This was the same time the company was leaving the Sears Tower. I think Sears faced a number of bad decisions over the decades leading to its early and later decline.

Edit: Here is another article of the decision to cut the catalog - http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1993-01-26/news/930317224...

It ends with the extremely ironic, "Sears on Monday wasn't interested in the past. It was positioning itself for the future."

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by Johnny555 on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:02PM (#15331509)
I wonder if the seemingly shortsighted decision was influenced by the desire to appease stock analysts (who are more interested in next quarter's results than next decade's) by shedding costs quickly. Analysts seemed to think the company was heading in the right direction... few companies (aside from Amazon) have the luxury of telling analysts "We're forgoing profits now so we can build up our business"

A quote from that 1993 article:

Still, most analysts hesitated to say that the revamping alone would put Sears back on its feet. "Put it this way: They're off their knees," said George A. Ashur, director of corporate bond research at Chase Securities Inc. "This is without a doubt good medicine for the company, but I have to see a few quarters of good returns before I'm ready to ditch the conservative show-me attitude."

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by Animats on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:13PM (#15333154)
At the time, mail order shopping was dying. Montgomery Ward and JC Penny were also bailing on mail order. The Sears model was for a pre-car America, where it was either Sears or some local overpriced retailers with no selection. By 1993, the US had malls everywhere there were people, Wal-Mart was taking on the job of servicing small towns, and the customer base of people reachable only by mail had shrunk.

Sears had the first good fulfillment system, but it was geared to the postal system and rail transport. It took about two weeks to get delivery on something from Sears, and you never knew what was out of stock until the package showed up. That allowed malls to beat them on convenience.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by helper on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:51PM (#15331980)
Really interesting nytimes article.

> The operation, which also published 50 small specialty catalogues, only recently began accepting Visa and Mastercard for purchases, and for many years, customers had to pick up their purchases at a Sears store even though other catalogues would mail items directly to homes.

Its easy to be nostalgic but it really sounds like sears had already fallen significantly behind by the time they shutdown their catalog.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by knz on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:19PM (#15332228)
> Its easy to be nostalgic but it really sounds like sears had already fallen significantly behind by the time they shutdown their catalog.

It's not unique to Sears either.

I know a few people who work at the Target HQ in Minneapolis and have heard stories in the past of executives being astounded by online shopping, especially the idea that people would do comparison shopping while in the store. Target has significantly increased their digital offerings since then but it's still far from the experience of Amazon.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by mindcrime on Monday September 25, 2017 @04:15PM (#15333724)
I know a few people who work at the Target HQ in Minneapolis and have heard stories in the past of executives being astounded by online shopping, especially the idea that people would do comparison shopping while in the store.

I look at Barnes & Noble as another company that is screwing the pooch by not doing a better job with Internet sales, and a better job integrating internet and meatspace (aka "click and mortar"). I do a lot of business with B&N but I almost never buy books from their online store. Why? Partly because their site sucks, looks & feels dated and klunky, lacks the selection of Amazon's site, and doesn't offer good recommendations like Amazon does.

And if I go into a B&N store and want to special order a book, I can get free shipping, if it goes to my home. But if I want them to ship it to the store so I can pick it up there, it costs extra. WTF? And if memory serves correctly, you can't return items bought online to a physical B&N store.

There's just so many ways that they are missing the boat and nobody seems to care.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by dalfonso on Monday September 25, 2017 @08:49PM (#15335332)
Don't get me started on B&N. As ridiculous as it sounds, I want to support B&N because at least they employ people who are somewhat local vs. an Amazon fulfillment center X miles away. Plus with that story of fake/reprinted books on Amazon, I'd rather buy directly from the retailer instead of a commingled pile.

My ideal B&N experience: go to their site, find the book I like, purchase it for the same price as Amazon (usually the prices are the same), then go pick it up at the store. But no, I can't do that. If I want to pick it up in store, I have to pay the "in store" price (which is often at 10-20% higher). No thanks.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by mindcrime on Monday September 25, 2017 @09:51PM (#15335581)
I'm with ya. I kinda like supporting B&N and I do to a point. I live near a store and I go in the cafe for coffee all the time, and I do wind up buying books and magazines there. But I just find nothing at all appealing about shopping on bn.com, even with my member discount and whatever.

Whoever is running their e-commerce operation really ought to be fired. Or if the lack of awareness is coming from higher up, somebody (CEO?) ought to be fired.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by rm_-rf_slash on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:35PM (#15332350)
But they are very different experiences. Amazon is the grand prize winner in the contest of looking up something you already know you want to buy, bundling it up with some shampoo you forgot to pick up at the grocery store earlier, and having all of that on your doorstep in two days.

Amazon's Achilles Heel is browsing. Their selection may feature 100,000 relevant items to my search but I seem to only find shitty versions of products, or at too high prices, regardless of how I mess with the search filter.

Target is great when you have an idea of what you might like to buy: you can try on shoes, sit on furniture, feel the bedsheets - you get the idea.

Sometimes the hassle of not getting the right size/feel of a product bought online, and having to repackage it and wait for another delivery simply isn't worth it compared to driving out to your local Suburban Mall Hell to just go and buy things like mom and dad used to do.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by gregmac on Monday September 25, 2017 @04:37PM (#15333908)
> Amazon's Achilles Heel is browsing. Their selection may feature 100,000 relevant items to my search but I seem to only find shitty versions of products

I would say their major problem is the lack of curation. The Amazon Marketplace brought all the garbage of eBay sellers to Amazon, and mixed it in with everything else.

As a result, you have to carefully watch out for things fulfilled by third parties (often subject to high shipping and strange return policies), and items with sketchy review histories. I can't find an article on it now, but I've come across items where it seems like the manufacturer pulled a bait-and-switch. The initial reviews are all very positive, and all the recent reviews are low and talk about poor product quality -- yet the item still has a reasonably high score. Did they seed reviews themselves? Did they actually change to a lower quality product? Who knows.

There's certain categories of products that I find to be an an utterly frustrating shopping experience on Amazon -- cell phone accessories is the one that immediately comes to mind.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by syntheticnature on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:33PM (#15333332)
Also now long-dead Borders; linking this post I'd come upon years ago because it has links to all the relevant posts in the first paragraph (even though one of them is more focused on the online shopping aspect): http://theferrett.livejournal.com/1641949.html
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by marcosdumay on Monday September 25, 2017 @04:02PM (#15333605)
> only recently began accepting Visa and Mastercard for purchases

Looks like they got so used to having a monopoly that even after they lost it they couldn't let it go.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by gozur88 on Monday September 25, 2017 @07:56PM (#15335141)
When I was a kid my mother had a dozen different department store charge cards, and you could only use them at that store. What a nightmare that must have been when it came time to pay bills.

It's really crazy when you look back and think about it.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by hownottowrite on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:52PM (#15331997)
They actually tried a diversification strategy by discontinuing the big-book and spinning up specialty books. The idea was that they could get a higher $/book by targeting specific interests. This helps in the world of prospecting (i.e. buying names from co-ops like Epsilon). It was also a strategy that would allow them to take advantage of bundling innovations at USPS like co-mailing. Obviously, none of it worked which was more of a function of merchandising than anything else.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by CydeWeys on Monday September 25, 2017 @11:47AM (#15331384)
Why was leaving the Sears Tower a bad decision? What ramifications did it have?
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by xigency on Monday September 25, 2017 @11:57AM (#15331457)
Building the Sears Tower was a bad idea. It ended up being a waste of money. Reading those articles it's clear that they were hemorrhaging money in 1990, compared to being profitable 20 years earlier.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by adventured on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:10PM (#15331583)
They weren't hemorrhaging money at the time. Sears was profitable from 1980 to 1990, including fiscal 1990.

1990 is approximately the year when their earnings started to plunge toward losses. Earnings nearly got cut in half from 1989 vs 1990. At the time Walmart was still the #2 retailer, having just passed Kmart (for the curious, Walmart went from $32b in sales for 1990 to $485b by 2015; now Walmart is in a position where their earnings are falling and sales growth has been flat for years as Amazon starts to eat into them).

This NY Times article from January 1991, describes the atmosphere well:

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/28/business/big-change-is-exp...

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by CydeWeys on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:25PM (#15332270)
The Sears Tower was built in 1970-1973 though? I'm still not seeing what it had to do with the profitability of the company in 1990. And you originally said that leaving it was a bad idea, not constructing it.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by drzaiusapelord on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:06PM (#15331548)
By the 80's, Service Merchandize had green screen "Silent Sam" terminals in all their stores you could walk up to, order what you wanted, pay right there, then walk to the back of the store and pick it up from a conveyer belt from the warehouse area, a bit like picking up your luggage.

Imagine if this kind of system went through a dial-up and the items were simply shipped to you. We would have had mass e-commerce in 1985. The French did actually have something like this via their minitel system, fwiw.

In the end, open-ish standards and SSL won the race, which is probably a good thing. I'd rather be stuck with a broken-ish web than locked into these various proprietary designs controlled by one corporation. Even if Sears/Prodigy would have delivered these services, they would have been crushed by the web.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by rconti on Monday September 25, 2017 @06:17PM (#15334649)
For some reason I really hate the name "Service Merchandise". I'm only familiar with it from Wheel of Fortune, I don't know where the stores were located. Something about the name, though, like "soft serve". Grammatically ambiguous is the best way I can describe it.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by tallanvor on Tuesday September 26, 2017 @06:09AM (#15337441)
It was a regional company, so depending on where you're from, it's not surprising that you never saw any of their showrooms. In other areas you had places like BEST (not to be confused with Best Buy). In my region (Northwest), there was a similar company named Jafco, which was purchased by BEST, along with a number of other chains.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by rconti on Wednesday September 27, 2017 @02:38AM (#15345391)
Yup, I am from the Northwest and remember Jafco and then BEST.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by ams6110 on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:20PM (#15331667)
In the 1980s the number of people who had dial-up online services at home was tiny. It wasn't anything close to mainstream until the mid/late 1990s -- well after the start of Sears' financial difficulties.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by pwg on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:47PM (#15331943)
Yes, in 1993, when Sears decided to close their catalog, much of the internet was still considered off-limits for commercial purposes [1]. We take today's use of the internet for shopping (and other commercial uses) for granted, but in 1993 it was not at all 100% clear that such a use would be allowed.

[1] Business Use of the World-Wide Web, 1995, http://www.informationr.net/ir/1-2/paper6.html ("Commercial activity on the Internet has only recently been possible.")

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by cat199 on Monday September 25, 2017 @02:04PM (#15332583)
Everyone in this thread is forgetting 1 thing:

PHONE shopping.

Yes. Where you have a phone and call someone to place an order.

Digital switching and the 1800 (nationwide toll free) number developed in the early/mid 1980's I'm sure had an impact here...

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by riffic on Tuesday September 26, 2017 @03:17AM (#15336808)
Toll free numbers were developed in the 60s - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Area_Telephone_Service
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by drzaiusapelord on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:58PM (#15332049)
But home computer adoption was skyrocketing at the time. My argument here is that once people saw the utility of this then they'd buy modems, the same way they saw the utility of printing and bought printers for their computers.

At the time, a modem was the same price, if not cheaper, than a printer or a floppy disk drive. It wasn't exactly a luxury expense.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by ams6110 on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:25PM (#15332268)
Ah, you're suggesting Sears could have run their own dial-up shopping service? Maybe, but I think it was too early. It would have been a text mode system (home computers, such as they were in the 1980s, were systems like Apple II or Comnmodore or TRS-80 or maybe CP/M or DOS if you had a "business" computer at home).

Macintosh computers were available, but expensive and not a typical home computer. And bandwidth on dial up at that time was maybe 2400 baud, way too slow to send any kind of detailed images of products that consumers would want in a catalog.

It might have gained some adoption, but in that era I think most consumers would have found filling out an order form and faxing or mailing it in easier.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by aidenn0 on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:38PM (#15332371)
Prodigy was not text-only; it was mixed text and graphics, and 9600 modems were cheap and 14.4 modems were widely available in 1993.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by drzaiusapelord on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:42PM (#15332419)
I was active in the BBS scene during that time. What could be done over 1200-2400 baud was fairly impressive considering the technical limits. Especially when ANSI and RIP graphics became the norm. Later 4800 and 9600 modems became cheap. By the late 80s these were the norm.

Ordering systems would have been trivial to implement if the political and commercial will was there. Not too long after this you had Prodigy, Compuserve, and AOL offering these kinds of services. I remember they let you order flowers, buy software, etc from their online systems.

The web and tcp/ip internet replacing it all didn't come until much, much later. From 1983-1995 online services were ruled by non-TCP/IP dial-up BBS services and proprietary services like Prodigy. Home internet didn't take off until 1995-1996 and even then it was fairly limited.

>Apple II or Comnmodore

On top of all the PC clones running DOS and Windows (Windows 1.0 was 1985), Amigas, Macs (as you mention), Timex/Sinclair, etc.

Macs were home computers, there were just less of them. Back in those days people paid large prices for home machines, so the pricetags might seem high today but the utility/novelty factors made up for it.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by heywire on Monday September 25, 2017 @02:56PM (#15332994)
RIP graphics was like magic in its day!
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by bdcravens on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:30PM (#15332297)
In the mid-eighties to mid-nineties home computers still cost several thousands of dollars. Installing a modem was no small feat either in computers from that time.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by ams6110 on Monday September 25, 2017 @04:16PM (#15333730)
Some were cheap. The TI 99/4a was almost being given away in the mid-80s. But I don't ever remember it being popular for accessing dial-up. Its Terminal Emulator implemented a proprietary protocol and was actually more popular for its text-to-speech capability.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by patrickg_zill on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:22PM (#15334289)
My high end 486 dx2/66 was 2000 usd, in 1993, plus monitor.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by sulam on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:48PM (#15331955)
The failure of Sears is really the success of Chinese manufacturing and the rise of disposability and dramatically lower prices that followed. Craftsman used to be tools that would last you for decades, but you paid. Now it’s the same crap everyone else is selling with a different logo thrown on.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by jstarfish on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:33PM (#15332337)
> Craftsman used to be tools that would last you for decades, but you paid. Now it’s the same crap everyone else is selling with a different logo thrown on.

Only certain items. They certainly have fallen victim to slapping the Craftsman label on cheap plastic "things" out of desperation which has definitely impacted their reputation as of late, but for those of us who can't pay Snap-on prices for everything what remains of Sears' actual tools are still light years better than the malleable/rusty junk Lowe's, Home Depot, Amazon and Walmart sell.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by lotsofpulp on Monday September 25, 2017 @04:48PM (#15334002)
http://pressurewashr.com/tool-industry-behemoths/

Here's a list of which companies own which brands. A lot of them probably come out of the same assembly lines with different names slapped on.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by dugditches on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:10PM (#15333138)
Dewalt, Makita, Milwauke, etc are 'malleable/rusty junk'?

The only Craftsmen tools I see on job sites now are wrenches and screwdrivers.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by jstarfish on Monday September 25, 2017 @04:59PM (#15334083)
No, I didn't have power tools in mind when I said that. Anything with a motor or more than a few moving parts is worth shopping around.

The basic hand tools and precision instruments are the Craftsman products I find are still worth using. The wrenches, torque wrenches, calipers, hammers, screwdrivers and the like. Nothing electronic or mostly plastic.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by Aloha on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:21PM (#15333224)
Those are the durable ones that craftsman makes.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by kps on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:11PM (#15334193)
Sears sold the Craftsman brand this year to Stanley Black & Decker (who also own DeWalt, Porter Cable, Bostich, and Mac among others).
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by TuringNYC on Tuesday September 26, 2017 @05:46AM (#15337347)
This is a problem with software as well -- someone creating quality long-term-viable systems has to fight harder than someone creating shaky facades. Everyone wants long-term-viable systems, but it is an easier, faster, cheaper task to build junk that lets you meet/beat this quarter's numbers.

I wonder if that mentality just grew beyond the point of no return.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by agumonkey on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:28PM (#15333294)
If you watch DIYers, technicians or engineers on youtube you'll see that.

You also get to see differences between product you cannot see. I just saw a super glue benchmark and well loctite won, but some "neat" brands failed early.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by erdle on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:44PM (#15333431)
Sears was such a dominant player at EXACTLY what Amazon does that at one point... more Americans had Sears catalogs than indoor plumbing.

It use to be normal to take the Sears catalog out to the outhouse and use it for toilet paper.

Retail is flat circle, you just move the counter between the seller and the customer. Some generations like picking out the products, some generations like having someone pick it out for them. Some like it getting delivered, some like picking it up.

Not much changes... people need goods... but no one makes all the goods they need.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by Waterluvian on Monday September 25, 2017 @07:11PM (#15334926)
Sears had 120 years of experience selling stuff to people through the mail. It's unbelievable how they managed to not parlay that into what amazon is now.
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by Alex3917 on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:15PM (#15333166)
> co-founded an ISP (Prodigy)

Famous for being one of the least competently-managed joint ventures of all time.

Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by ghaff on Monday September 25, 2017 @04:26PM (#15333819)
Prodigy was truly awful. As I recall, it attempted to appeal to non-techies with a graphical interface at a time when computers really weren't fast enough and color graphics sucked (CGA). Just terrible in comparison to commercial services like CIS as well as BBSs (both paid and free).
Re:Sears's History Predicts Almost Everything Amazon's Doing by Endy on Monday September 25, 2017 @06:06PM (#15334588)
Weird, because I was on Prodigy and it worked beautifully for me; and it's the only reason I'll even give online gaming a marginal glance nowadays.