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Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @02:33PM (#14454826)
And America's love affair with the automobile is a well-known abusive relationship that America will never have the courage to leave.

From what I have read, Millenials are putting noteworthy pressure on this aspect of American culture.

Also, I gave up my car years ago. With the magic of the internet, I work online. I mostly walk everywhere and occasionally take public transit.

I think we can change this substantially.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by puranjay on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @03:32PM (#14455248)
I woke up to a flat tire about two months ago. Don't know why, but that was the breaking point for me.

Since then, I haven't driven a single day. I walk, take the metro or get an Uber.

I haven't been happier. Driving was easily the worst part of my day.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @04:10PM (#14455519)
I have two sons. At the time that we chose to go carless, we were living in an apartment complex with endless speed bumps. Driving over the speed bumps into and out of the complex daily was about 3 minutes of torture that we were completely thrilled to give up.

Humorously, we have had occasion to put me on a bus for some reason while they walked to the destination in question. I would get ahead of them, then the bus would get stuck in traffic and they would get ahead of me. We all arrived at the spot in question within a couple of minutes of each other.

Unless you are driving quite a long distance and/or on the open highway, car travel is not as much faster than foot travel as some people seem to believe. Short local trips don't see as much gain in speed as Americans seem to imagine. I think this belief persists in part because so many people just don't walk anywhere at all. They drive everywhere, even if they are only going 1/4 mile or something silly like that.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by LordKano on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @04:31PM (#14455665)
Unless you are driving quite a long distance and/or on the open highway, car travel is not as much faster than foot travel as some people seem to believe.

I'm going to have to disagree on this one.

I can drive to my local Wal-Mart in about 5 minutes. It would take me 30 minutes to walk there. I can drive there. Do my shopping, wait in line, pay, cart my stuff back out to my vehicle and drive home in less than the amount of time it would take to walk there.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by specialist on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:34PM (#14456110)
Mz is clearly referring to urban (civilized) areas.

The closest WalMart to me (checking...) is 13 miles away.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by LordKano on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @04:38PM (#14501099)
If that's the case, why the reference to open highways?
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by estebank on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @09:17PM (#14457225)
I've lived in multiple cities of different size where I had multiple grocery stores within 5 minutes walking. In dense-for-US SF where I need to drive for 10 minutes to get to the closest Safeway.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by ShannonAlther on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @04:55PM (#14455843)
> Unless you are driving quite a long distance and/or on the open highway, car travel is not as much faster than foot travel as some people seem to believe.

The average speed limit on municipal roads in Ontario is 50 km/h, which means that anywhere within 5km will take 6 minutes and, within 10km, 12 minutes.

Running 5km takes me 18 minutes, and running 10km takes me closer to 40 minutes. Humans walk at about 5km/h, which means that 5km would take about 1 hour, and 10km would be 2 hours or more, since exhaustion starts to factor in.

Car travel is unimaginably faster than walking. I don't know anybody who wants to spend 2 hours on a round-trip to a grocery store 5km away when they could do it in 10 minutes in a car.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by CydeWeys on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @06:18PM (#14456379)
You're not wrong, and even though I dislike cars, I can't help but feel like you're arguing against someone living in an alternate reality. Unless you live in a dense urban core there's no possible way that walking saves more time than driving. The main reasons I don't have a car is that it's very freeing not to have to worry about owning one (from a theft/maintenance/risk perspective), and also because I'm now living in Manhattan, where owning a car is a huge additional hassle above just parking it in the suburbs where I used to live. I'd either have to pony up for an expensive garage or go fight to find free public parking multiple times every week, all just so I can drive in traffic that's horrendous during the entire day. No thank you.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by ShannonAlther on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @06:24PM (#14456415)
If I had the choice to go live in Manhattan and not have a car vs. live somewhere else and be obligated to own a car I would choose Manhattan in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, I can't do that (and even if I could, most people cannot).
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by CydeWeys on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @06:29PM (#14456444)
I'm curious as to why you truly can't do it. Obviously not everyone can, but most individual cases likely can. It's more that you choose not to, which is still perfectly valid.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Decade on Thursday June 01, 2017 @02:56AM (#14458468)
Can’t live in Manhattan? Because NIMBY housing policies prevent Manhattan from growing.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/05/19/upshot/forty-...

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by CydeWeys on Thursday June 01, 2017 @08:48AM (#14459768)
I don't disagree that zoning policies need reforming, but that just makes living here more expensive, not impossible.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Decade on Thursday June 01, 2017 @10:49AM (#14460702)
If there are fewer places to live than people who need to live there, then having a place for everyone is impossible. In a shortage, all housing is luxury housing.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by CydeWeys on Thursday June 01, 2017 @11:06AM (#14460843)
No one's talking about everyone though, just one person who is a HN reader.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by ShannonAlther on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @06:36PM (#14456481)
I'm not American, sadly. I'm from Ontario. You're right, it's not literally impossible but it's way more effort and time than it would be worth.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by watwut on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:21PM (#14456032)
You are not doing speed limit on average in most cities. You slow down for turns, you wait for red light, you wait for other cars, you are parking. Most importantly, shortcuts available to pedestrians are not available to cars that have to take longer route.

I do groceries by walk and it never took 2 hours. The store is not 5km away pretty much from anywhere. You have to be out of city or in the middle of night for it to be that far. Unless there is some kind of law to prevent it, stores with what you need daily pop up around cities everywhere.

In any case, 5km is still nothing on bicycle which I might take for that distance. Just to kill two birds with one stone and get a bit of exercise.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by ShannonAlther on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:36PM (#14456125)
Counterpoints:

* Slowdowns, sure, but many drivers also exceed the limit, and the walking:driving ratio is still massively lopsided.

* Pedestrians are not immune to red lights.

* While there are certainly pedestrian shortcuts that are faster than driving, this is definitely not the case for most combinations of start and end points. Far more often, while the pedestrian might gain distance, the car is still literally 10x faster.

* In fact, unless you live in an extremely dense city, it's highly unlikely that there will be a grocery shop, book store, electronics retailer, Italian restaurant, furniture store, etc. less than 5km from your house. Plus all of the people who you might want to visit, your school, place of work, and so on.

* A bike is not walking. Most bikes are for one person, so if you're in a group they're not much use.

* Carrying purchases home is a pain. I should know, I did this for two years.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Neeek on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @09:45PM (#14457359)
>* A bike is not walking. Most bikes are for one person, so if you're in a group they're not much use.

My favourite part of visiting Amsterdam was the excessive bike usage. Pretty much everyone has 1 or more of them, you just ride together in a group or catch a tram, even out of the city everyone would either catch a train or simply ride on the side of the highway between villages.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by puranjay on Thursday June 01, 2017 @01:53AM (#14458286)
> Unless you are driving quite a long distance and/or on the open highway, car travel is not as much faster than foot travel as some people seem to believe.

I actually got to test this. My office was about 8km from my house. If I was to leave around my usual time, it would take me about 55-65 mins minimum to reach home.

One day I hadn't taken my car and couldn't find a cab. So I said screw it and decided to walk home.

Reached home in flat 71 minutes. Would have been faster had I taken detours that cut the distance by a kilometer or so.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by lghh on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @02:41PM (#14454889)
> With the magic of the internet, I work online

Which is great for us developers, but not so much for most service industry workers.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @02:42PM (#14454894)
I'm not a developer. You can have an HN account without being a developer.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by sanderjd on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @03:15PM (#14455134)
But you're also not working at a Starbucks or a Chipotle. This is what your parent was talking about: a lot of the jobs in our economy require physically being where your customers are.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @03:22PM (#14455197)
I am aware that many jobs require physically being there. That is not at all what the reply to me said.

I am a writer. I am quite poor. In fact, I am currently homeless. I have been bitching via blog here recently about my frustrations with the widespread attitudes that writers don't deserve to be paid dirt, never mind that people online expect good quality writing to be readily available on the internet. Somehow, that high quality writing should magically appear without paying anyone for it in any way.

I don't make much money. I wish I had a better income.

I am really glad I can make money online at all, but, no, I am not part of some privileged elite with money, power, mobility, etc. I do have mobility. I do cherish it and it enormously enhances my life.

But life is a great deal more complicated than those who have ALL the bennies and those who are nothing but crapped on in every way imaginable. This isn't even a case of shades of grey. Life is incredibly Technicolor and varied.

I think it is completely legitimate to give some push back against the enormous amount of assumption in both that reply and yours.

I would like to see us come up with better solutions than we currently have. That will not happen if we blithely tolerate what amounts to classist assumptions dominating any and every supposed intelligent discussion.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by sanderjd on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:56PM (#14456249)
I think you're reading too much into our comments. From your parent comment:

> most service industry workers

Those are folks that predominantly need to be physically present. We weren't assuming anything about your membership in a privileged elite, just pointing out that lots of people still need to transport themselves to work.

Good luck with your writing! I agree that we need better business models to reward it.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:59PM (#14456264)
You are confused. That is not from any of my comments.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by sanderjd on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @08:39PM (#14457057)
It is from the comment you were replying to when I originally replied to you.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @08:41PM (#14457063)
I know exactly where you got it. But you referred to the comment as "your" parent comment. Perhaps you meant something different by that from what that sounds like to me.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by sanderjd on Thursday June 01, 2017 @12:54AM (#14458087)
Sorry, you're right, that was confusingly worded, I meant "the parent of your comment".
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by blakes on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @03:15PM (#14455137)
What do you do for work online, out of curiosity?

I know there are a lot of options for basic online work that isn't developer based, but I'm not sure what is available that truly pays a decent living wage.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @03:27PM (#14455223)
I'm a writer. I do freelance writing for an online service, I sometimes edit resumes and I blog.

I can make better than minimum wage in fits and spurts, but I currently don't have much earned income. A large part of this is rooted in my medical situation. The details probably aren't really of interest to you.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by mason240 on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @02:39PM (#14454870)
You're free to live how you choose, but don't force others to live how you see fit.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by phil21 on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @02:45PM (#14454919)
Exactly. Folks who prefer public transit have been forced to live in car culture by folks who fund roads at the expense of pretty much every other form of transportation. In many cases very unethically so.

Due to the societal and environmental effects, I think it's pretty clear roads should be in no way subsidized like they currently are. If the "suburbs" had to carry their full economic costs, they would be unaffordable.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by zanny on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:22PM (#14456039)
There have been several great articles that have floated to the top of HN in recent years about how practically no city in the US can afford to maintain its own road networks because of the extreme subsidies in the past.

It is a combination of population density being artificially lowered through cheap road subsidies, constant pressure to eliminate taxes, and gutting alternative transport meaning roads need to satiate all human mobility and thus need huge capacity.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by mason240 on Thursday June 01, 2017 @09:16AM (#14459954)
Mass transit is so heavily subsidized that if had to carry it's full economic costs, it would be unaffordable.

The light rail lines in my state (MN) don't even make enough from fares to cover their day-to-day operating costs, much less maintenance, and of course tax payers were 100% on the hook for initial construction - with a large chunk of the money coming from automobile taxes.

So yes, I would be fine with the costs of roads coming more directly from the people using them, but then we are going to do the same with transit. Deal?

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by TulliusCicero on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @03:10PM (#14455092)
Agreed. America's forced dominance of the automobile is pretty grossly unethical. Freedom means the ability to make meaningful choices, and if biking is incredibly dangerous, transit is slow and infrequent, and nothing is within walking distance, then those are hardly meaningful options, are they?

Building to support multiple modes of transportation is the freedom-loving thing to do. Want to walk? Go for it! Transit? Sure! Biking? Why not? Driving? Works for me!

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by strictnein on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @03:18PM (#14455166)
"Freedom" doesn't mean living wherever you want and having every option available to you. It means choosing to live in places that offer the amenities you desire.

Want walkable, bikeable, mass transit, etc? Live downtown. Want bigger homes, yards, quite, etc? Live in the suburbs.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by TulliusCicero on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @03:48PM (#14455349)
> "Freedom" doesn't mean living wherever you want and having every option available to you.

Obviously there's a limit to how reasonable multimodal transportation is. Nobody's expecting decent transit among rural farmland. But we could do better than we're doing now -- MUCH better.

> Want bigger homes, yards, quite, etc? Live in the suburbs.

The biggest problem with this is that in the US you usually have to choose between one of two extremes which dovetail with your examples. You're either in a big ugly apartment block downtown (or in a downtown-ish area) or you're in a super low density suburb where Cars Are Law.

Plenty of countries manage to have more of a gradient, where you can have, say, suburbs of middling density, where driving is easy, but so is walking, biking, and taking the train to the city. I live in Munich at the moment and the suburbs nearby fit this mold perfectly, but in the US such towns are extremely rare.

There are still plenty of cars in Munich proper, for that matter. There are just lots of other options too.

* Also in most American cities even the downtown still isn't very walkable, definitely isn't bikable, and has crappy transit. There really are only a handful of cities in the US where these things all work reasonably well.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by watwut on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:13PM (#14455965)
Biking is not "incredibly dangerous". It plenty safe. It is healthy. It however sometimes slows down cars and some drivers are then motivated to frame biking as dangerous activity to stop it.

But really really really, biking is not incredibly dangerous.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by specialist on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:27PM (#14456075)
I've bike commuted to work. In a very bike friendly area.

Everyone I know has been in an accident of some sort. Hit & runs, side swipes, doored, pushed (deliberately), etc.

After better infrastructure, the most effective way to improve safety is to have more cyclists. I think we're in a rough transition period, but things are definitely getting better.

One of my bike buddies thinks things will really change once moms start cycling en masse. That'd change the perception from gonzo bike dudes to totally uncool in a heartbeat, evoking much less hostility.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by dtech on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @07:06PM (#14456637)
I live in the Netherlands (16 million people, 23 million bikes). I went to San Fransisco a few months ago, one of the most bike-friendly US cities from what I've heard. Riding a bike there made me want to make sure my will was updated.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by TulliusCicero on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:22PM (#14456037)
Biking in the US is way more dangerous than in countries where it's more popular, like the Netherlands.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by omegaworks on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @06:08PM (#14456319)
I have several coworkers that have stopped biking to work here in sunny, liberal SF because of near-death experiences commuting on a bike.

These are both avid riders with professional-grade equipment taking a short Mission-FiDi route.

Regardless of its "project zero" marketing, SFMTA has bikes last on its priority list. It has to be pushed by guerrilla infrastructure groups to do anything meaningful.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:19PM (#14456010)
In some areas, it is quite dangerous due to a lack of bike infrastructure and the driving habits of locals. My ex husband sometimes commuted to work by bike and often bitched about this.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by emmelaich on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @10:36PM (#14457561)
I live in an area with good roads, good cars. We get a bike fatality a few times a year. At dusk I find even the well-lit bikes a little hard to discern. We also have some bad drivers. In the most recent fatality the lead rider of a bunch riding on a road was decapitated.

I used to ride bikes all the time as a kid but I would not make a habit of riding on our roads. It's too much of a gamble.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by specialist on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:22PM (#14456036)
Diverting some of the cheddar from highways to public transit is hardly depriving anyone of their cherished way of life.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:29PM (#14456082)
In many areas, just removing outright hostile barriers to pedestrians would vastly improve walkability in the US while possibly going entirely unnoticed by drivers. I once walked to a shopping center with a fence partway around the property that forced me to go far out of my way to go in using the car entrance. A small gap in the fence next to the cross walk would have done wonders for me and most drivers would not have noticed the difference.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @02:41PM (#14454887)
I don't see where you get the idea that I am doing anything or have any goal to force anyone to do anything. That seems like a huge and unwarranted leap of logic.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by mason240 on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @02:48PM (#14454934)
>I think we can change this substantially.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @02:51PM (#14454952)
I don't see how that in any way suggests what you are saying. There are a lot of people who currently feel forced into long commutes who hate them. There are a lot of people who are trapped in the situation of they need a car to get to work, they need a job to afford a car because a car is often the second biggest household expense after housing itself.

I am talking about opening up options, not putting a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to give up their car. We currently have many people who feel they have a gun to their head in terms of being forced into needing a car they don't want. Where is your sympathy for their right to choose?

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by mason240 on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @02:57PM (#14454999)
They have right to choose to limit their standard of living, as you have done, and move to an urban core and be completely dependent on transit for transportation.

Only one of us wants to "change this substantially."

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @03:00PM (#14455021)
Many people are genuinely trapped. Just because I have been able to pull this off does not mean other people are simply free to choose.

Urban cores are often insanely expensive and not necessarily where someone wants to live just because they don't want a car. I am wholly unimpressed with your hypocritical comments here that boil down to "Don't tread on ME or interfere with my right to own a car and drive all over the place while the world bends over backwards to make that convenient, but your lifestyle preferences? Oh, fuck you."

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by mason240 on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @03:22PM (#14455198)
You're replying to a comment where I made clear that I want you to be able to make your own lifestyle preferences.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @03:32PM (#14455252)
They have right to choose to limit their standard of living, as you have done, and move to an urban core and be completely dependent on transit for transportation.

This is dismissive, insulting of my preference to live without a car and rather hostile. If you were intending to say that you support my right to choose, you failed to communicate that. It came across as contemptuous and is in no way sympathetic to the fact that walkable neighborhoods and public transit are not hostile to drivers the way the current car centric American landscape is hostile to pedestrians.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by primeblue on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:35PM (#14456122)
Only a minority of the country lives without children where a car is necessary. And who's rich enough to live in an urban centre with 2 children? More importantly who would!
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by shados on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @07:41PM (#14456789)
I wish. Then I wouldn't get woken up by little brats every Saturday morning. I live in one of the densest, most expensive neighborhood in the US outside of SF, and there's still a bazillion little kids and screaming babies all over the place living in lofts with no green area in sight, and even though the nearby schools are terrible.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by TulliusCicero on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @04:03PM (#14455472)
People can't really though, because of zoning and government planning. Like even if you wanted to make an area more walkable by inviting, say, a corner grocery store to set up shop in your neighborhood, usually you can't, because of single-use zoning.

And before you say, "well then just move to the city center!" perhaps you should consider that we're talking about a very common urban form across the world that is strikingly uncommon in the US due to government forces? Not exactly "people making their lifestyle preferences", more like "government imposing lifestyle preferences", and it's mostly just due to cultural momentum at this point.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by edmccard on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @03:23PM (#14455204)
>They have right to choose to limit their standard of living, as you have done, and move to an urban core and be completely dependent on transit for transportation.

As opposed to being completely dependent on public roads for transportation? Or out away from the "urban core" do you just get around on four-wheelers and snowmobiles? If so, maybe we can stop spending so much of our taxes building roads out to wherever you want to live.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by sanderjd on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @03:21PM (#14455193)
Is your argument against "forcing others to live how you see fit" as in your original comment, or against change from the status quo as in these follow on comments? These are not the same thing.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by TheCoelacanth on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @03:51PM (#14455371)
They don't have that freedom now because of zoning that restricts the development of urban-core-like development and because of subsidies that favor sparsely populated suburbs over the urban core.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by primeblue on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:33PM (#14456105)
Have you tried carrying 10 shopping bags a couple of miles with screaming toddlers and young kids?
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @07:19PM (#14456679)
I used to walk to the grocery store in Germany six days a week with a toddler and an infant and a backpack for my groceries. I was in American military housing.

After I moved to Kansas, I ran into a soldier I did not remember, but he clearly remembered me. The soldiers who knew what it was like to carry a 60 pound ruck sack had all kinds of respect for me.

It can be done. Not by everyone and I am not saying you are required to live that way. But giving other people options doesn't preclude you from driving everywhere. And that's the entire fucking point here.

Feel free to drive. But I like walking. I liked walking even when I was carrying groceries home in a backpack with an infant strapped to my chest and a toddler sitting on my shoulders.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by mason240 on Thursday June 01, 2017 @09:12AM (#14459924)
Yes, just like we can live by subsistence farming with manual labor, living in huts.

It can be done, but most of us want to progress.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Thursday June 01, 2017 @01:16PM (#14462281)
There you go, insulting me again.

Preferring to walk in no way makes me some undeveloped savage. Maybe you haven't noticed, but I am online. I spend a lot of time online. I make my earned income online.

For the last time: My desire to see more walkable environments and better public transit in the U.S. in no way bars people from driving. Busses use the same roads that cars use. This is in no way whatsoever a situation where we must choose one or the other.

Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by grillvogel on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:26PM (#14456065)
well by choosing to drive yourself to work every day in a wasteful petroleum burning vehicle you are forcing the rest of us to live with your pollution
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by pluto24 on Wednesday May 31, 2017 @05:31PM (#14456099)
I drive a Civic hybrid. My decision to not have kids has had a far greater environmental impact.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by mason240 on Thursday June 01, 2017 @09:10AM (#14459907)
And that's why electric cars will the death of anti-car sentiment.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by Mz on Thursday June 01, 2017 @01:12PM (#14462234)
The lead batteries make them less "clean" than many people imagine. Lead is a hazardous waste, batteries do not last forever and car batteries are quite large.
Re:The US has forgotten how to do infrastructure by pluto24 on Thursday June 01, 2017 @04:52PM (#14464584)