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Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by Neliquat on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:00PM (#13825211)
Until this is treated like the public epidemic it is, and promote education, this will only get worse.

Calories in - calories out = fat accumulation. It is literally that simple.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by wavefunction on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:05PM (#13825234)
You're of course leaving out the complexity in how "Calories in" and "calories out" are derived for individuals.

Some people consume too much calorically as a mental-health coping mechanism. Some people consume too much calorically because the food culture they were raised in promotes that. Some people consume too much calorically because they have a lack of real options to purchase fresh whole foods.

Some people don't expend enough calories because their lifestyle makes it difficult (work + family + etc). Some people don't expend enough calories because the lifestyle they were raised with doesn't promote that.

These are just some of the ways that simple equation you've posted become immediately more complex.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by revelation on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:20PM (#13825354)
I don't understand, the equation doesn't change at all.
Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by Fricken on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:27PM (#13825417)
When your body is breaking down simple carbohydrates, it causes your blood sugar levels to spike, and during this period you're packing away more fat than you would otherwise. Combined with a sedentary lifestyle it's really bad. It does matter where you're getting your calories from.

This is why poor people have greater obesity problems than the rest. Potato Chips, white bread, pasta, and of course sugar feature prominently in their daily calorie intake, these are the cheapest calories you can make a diet out of.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by revelation on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:47PM (#13825612)
None of that matters, it's like jitter on a clock line. The timespans we are talking (months), these differences vanish.

I'm sure there are tons of intricacies in how metabolism works, but glycogen storage in a human is about 2000 kJ. Once your deficit surpasses that (and we'll happily allow a multiple to account for any error here), your body will either consume fat or you'll experience actual low blood sugar and drop dead.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by hackinthebochs on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:30PM (#13825454)
The point is that there's a whole lot of complexity hiding behind "calories in" and "calories out". The behaviors of eating, the psychology and physiology of feeling full, of being active, exercising, etc are all very complex. The simple equation is hiding immense complexity.
Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by DoodleBuggy on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:08PM (#13825269)
Every complexity you posted still comes down to consuming more calories than is needed.

The reality is the vast majority of people eat way too much, and the dietary guidelines for caloric intake are far too high for a largely sedentary society.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by lacampbell on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:12PM (#13825299)
That's one of the things you really have to accept if you want to lose weight - yes you will have to eat less, and yes you will feel hungry a lot.
Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by montecarl on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:32PM (#13825476)
I do not want to sound like I am arguing with you for the sake of arguing, but I have lost weight and several of my friends and family have lost weight without feeling hungry by switching to a low carb (ketogenic) diet. It was so crazy to eat mostly fatty food and green vegetables and lose weight very quickly. One major thing I noticed was how much longer I was able to go without eating on this diet without feeling hungry. I used to feel very ill if I did not eat at least 3 meals at day. I can now, if I choose, eat a snack in the early afternoon and then eat dinner and feel fine (1.5 meals instead of 3).
Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by sokoloff on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:36PM (#13825515)
This matches my experience as well. The transition period (~1.5 weeks, but especially brutal on days 2-5) was rough, but once established, it was the easiest diet to stay on if you could control your environment and mostly cook for yourself or choose where to eat.

It is somewhat harder to stay on the diet while traveling, attending conferences, or business meetings. Having a host choose a place to eat, offer you local cuisine, etc makes it harder to stay in keto. Hunger though, was never a problem after the first full week.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by Jach on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:31PM (#13825954)
Keto is great but there's still a willpower component, it can be more or less difficult depending on the person. I don't really like cooking a lot, but I don't mind eating the same things most of the time. It would be a lot harder for someone who hates cooking and hates eating the same thing all the time. While raw hunger never bothered me I did find cravings an occasional issue (never constant, but even after months never quite disappearing) and sometimes they'd be for things I haven't had in years. Eventually it might be something easy to satisfy like a pizza and when you give in once it's easy to say "screw it", though some people can only continue if they have an occasional cheat day.

I'm an on-and-off-again keto dieter (I appreciate that for me it seems to take at least 2-3x as long to put the weight back on as it takes to take off as I inevitably revert to former diet choices...) and I never find the transition period difficult, but there's a consistent point where I hit "eh, still fat, but don't feel super fat anymore" and that's when the cravings or the pressures of eating non-keto with company have the highest chance of getting to me. There are also unforeseen stressors that can make things difficult (in my case a forced house move) but I'm ok with the state of flux. I don't want a six-pack physique enough, not really, and that's the last willpower component -- how long can you stick with it (and introduce more exercise), even with bumps and setbacks? My friend who introduced me to the diet lost 100 lbs by forcing himself to do keto for about 5 months, but he was fat enough at the start that he could stand to lose another 50 lbs but it's not as easy now. Still, he's much happier and healthier now than before. One's level of willpower is still involved even with how great keto is and is the difference between losing 50 lbs (not bad), 100 lbs (pretty awesome), and 150 lbs (your ideal).

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by lacampbell on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:44PM (#13825582)
I didn't take it as arguing for the sake of arguing at all. I know a lot of people who really do well with low carbs - and I'm slightly jealous.

I've tried before, but I feel like complete garbage. I'm told it goes away, but I don't really have days to waste feeling dizzy trying out something that may or not work for me.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by prostoalex on Thursday March 09, 2017 @01:12AM (#13827397)
You'd think that the link between "eating less" and "losing weight" is so well-proven that any subsequent study would re-validate it. Yet there's not a single study where 100% of participants who cut their caloric intake lost weight in 100% of the cases. The reports, at best, are "inconclusive". http://time.com/2809007/eat-less-exercise-more-isnt-the-answ...

On a global scale countries low on the obesity scale (Japan, Singapore, Korea, France) are not teeming with starving under-nourished citizens, and countries high on the obesity scale (Mexico, US) are not lacking gyms, exercise equipment, or opportunities for simple nature walks.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by lacampbell on Thursday March 09, 2017 @01:32PM (#13831657)
Being obese and eating less or feeling hungry doesn't mean you're starving or malnourished. That's complete hyperbole.

The fact is if you're fat, you've conditioned yourself to eat too many calories, and eating a normal amount of calories will likely leave you feeling hungrier while you adjust.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by prostoalex on Thursday March 09, 2017 @05:07PM (#13834242)
And yet fasting diets do not consistently work, and it's the fattest countries of the world that have supermarket shelves full of low-calorie products (finding a low-calorie yogurt or low-fat cheese in a French supermarket would be a challenge)

http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(96)00456-1/abstract

"In the adult US population the prevalence of overweight rose from 25.4% from 1976 to 1980 to 33.3% from 1988 to 1991, a 31% increase. During the same period, average fat intake, adjusted for total calories, dropped from 41.0% to 36.6%, an 11% decrease. Average total daily calorie intake also tended to decrease, from 1,854 kcal to 1,785 kcal (−4%). Men and women had similar trends. Concurrently, there was a dramatic rise in the percentage of the US population consuming low-calorie products, from 19% of the population in 1978 to 76% in 1991. From 1986 to 1991 the prevalence of sedentary lifestyle represented almost 60% of the US population, with no change over time."

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by lucidguppy on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:12PM (#13825290)
It's easier to eat fewer calories when the foods you eat are high in water and fiber content.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CdwWliv7Hg

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by wavefunction on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:24PM (#13825911)
My point is that you can't just tell someone this simple equation and expect them to adopt it due to the elegant rationality of the solution.

Somebody who is using food as a coping device has an underlying issue they have to tackle before they can reduce their caloric intake. I mean, you could force folks to eat less, but you really want them eating less because it's healthier for them and that they themselves recognize and embrace that truth so they adopt the healthier habits as their personal culture to re-transmit to family and friends.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by lucidguppy on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:09PM (#13825272)
CICO isn't very useful because all diets that are successful are CICO. It's like saying space travel is simply applying enough force in the right direction.

Logging and limiting calories isn't the only way to achieve CICO.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by nothrabannosir on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:33PM (#13825489)
Yes, and reality is just an application of the universal wave function. Just derive your diet from that.

Claiming "calories in calories out end of story" is like saying "the solution to aids and unwanted pregnancies is condoms." People are still getting HIV and unwanted pregnancies, and most of them know about condoms. What gives? "The solution" doesn't take into account we are mammals with millions of years of evolutionary programming driving our every action.

Honestly, ending conversations because of CICO prevents people from exploring the real problem. It's counter productive. Please take a moment and listen.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by Jach on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @08:06PM (#13825785)
∇ F = J/(c є0)

It's literally just that simple too.

Unfortunately this isn't good advice for a fat person trying to lose weight. Even a very low IQ fat person understands that if they eat less and move more they'll lose weight. Nor is it particularly good advice for trying to craft a top-down policy unless the intention is to force people to eat a certain amount only and burn a minimum amount of energy.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by devoply on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:02PM (#13825226)
Education does not work. Mexico has shown that regulation does work, they regulated sugar which has had a positive effect on health. The food industry needs to be regulated. The few conglomerates are engineering unhealthy people. It's that simple. There is very little actual food choice because the market optimizes for profits, not for health. In order to give health a fighting chance you need to regulate the market to change the game. Food is an addictive drug, we regulate all other addictive drugs.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/nov/03/obese-soda-suga...

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by TezlaKoil on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:21PM (#13825362)
> There is very little actual food choice because the market optimizes for profits, not for health.

Hold on! The market consists of both suppliers and customer. One would think that being fat is not profitable for the latter. Meanwhile, only 3% of Japanese people have a BMI over 30, while 32% of Americans do. It must be that Japanese markets don't optimize for profit! Or maybe you got the source of the problem wrong. Guess which one I think it is.

> Mexico has shown that regulation does work, they regulated sugar which has had a positive effect on health.

Hungary has a higher sugar tax, had it for a longer time, and it appears to have no effect on health at all. Go figure.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by prostoalex on Thursday March 09, 2017 @01:03AM (#13827342)
Show me a study with a large control group where this was proven true for 100% of participants.

At best the results range from "inconclusive" or "wide variation" to "they tried to expend more calories via exercise and gained weight, oopsie" https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/12/exercising-but-gai...

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by scotty79 on Thursday March 09, 2017 @03:33AM (#13827970)
Excercise doesn't do much for you when it comes to weight loss. You have to run excessive distances to burn food that'll take you just a moment to simply not eat.
Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by prostoalex on Thursday March 09, 2017 @11:59AM (#13830583)
If cutting food was the answer, then fasting would be a conclusive answer to weight loss. It's not.

All the obese people you see walking around are not suffering from a lack of willpower to go on a fasting diet. All the thin people you see walking around are not meticulously tracking their calorie intake and burn.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by scotty79 on Friday March 10, 2017 @03:48AM (#13837242)
All the pepole that are consistently eating 1500-1800 calories per day and are not bedridden are loosing weight and getting thin or less fat regardless of calorie counting and willpower.

There are people who eat more and still are thin but if you are not one of those people they should be none of your concern similarily to how people who inherited wealth - what they do - is meningless for person that was born poor, is poor and wants to get bit richer.

And fasting is conclusive anwer to weight loss if you can enforce it.

If you were in charge of getting inmate less fat that's exactly what you would order and he'd loose weight.

The problem with fasting in real world is that weight loss is not the only thing it affects end you can't ignore the side effects like you could do with an inmate.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by LyndsySimon on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:35PM (#13825510)
> Calories in - calories out = fat accumulation. It is literally that simple.

That is a gross oversimplification. Countless people, including myself, on ketogenic diets can attest to that.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by trillf0rd on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:49PM (#13825635)
Calorie balance certainly matters but it is not that simple. Most leading health research institutions believe dietary quality plays a major part in health and weight management. Certain foods are associated with patterns of overeating. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/best-diet-quali...

The average American diet has changed dramatically in the last century with the growth of the restaurant and food processing industry. Exercise participation has actually increased substantially in the last 20 years (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2015/057.pdf) in the same time period obesity has soared.

Energy balance being responsible for weight gain is too readily used by the food processing industry in an effort to shift away blame for this epidemic.

A few instances: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/12/obesity-exercise... http://www.cbsnews.com/news/good-news-pepsicos-indra-nooyi-s... http://blogs.plos.org/speakingofmedicine/2012/07/05/is-obesi... https://therussells.crossfit.com/2015/09/23/transparency-coc...

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by matz1 on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:24PM (#13825385)
yea but the implementation is extremely hard.
Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by Terr_ on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:03PM (#13825231)
> promote education

IMO it's not so much about education as about how to help people shape their habits. People already know that candy-bars and french-fries correlate to obesity, after all.

> that simple

Or at least, so close to being that simple that there's no point confusing people with erroneous details.

https://xkcd.com/669/

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by DoodleBuggy on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:14PM (#13825305)
> Calories in - calories out = fat accumulation. It is literally that simple.

It's literally the first law of thermodynamics.

Everyone tries to over complicate things, but the reality is if you eat more calories than you burn, you will become fat.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by MattRix on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:27PM (#13825412)
Yes, but it's a gross oversimplification! If I asked you "what's the secret to getting rich?" and you said "earn more than you spend", it would be true, but it wouldn't be very helpful.

The fact is that different calories affect our brains differently. Some cause us to crave more food, some cause us to feel satiated, etc. I hate this modern trend of saying "calories in vs calories out" as if it's a magic cure.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by scotty79 on Thursday March 09, 2017 @03:46AM (#13828006)
> "earn more than you spend", it would be true, but it wouldn't be very helpful.

It's actually very helpful advice but only if you are able to realize that's the only way you can predictably get rich through.

Most people choose to rather belive that they are spending not more than they believe they should or must and will not always look for new job that pays more, and instead believe that they can get rich by using tricks or will surely have some lucky break.

Same with weight loss. Calories in, calories out is a magic cure for many people but only if they are grounded enough in reality of what they can be sure about, to accept it.

Re:As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up by angry-hacker on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @07:32PM (#13825487)
Modern trend is to deny simple physics.

Of course some people are more addicted to food than others, some eat more healthy than others. But the solution nevertheless is the same.