I have a "ToLearn" list that keeps getting longer and longer as I struggle to have some quality time where I can learn and really comprehend stuff AFTER putting my 4 year old daughter to sleep- i too have to stay with her till she is asleep- often with me also going to nap...
When I am getting stressed and mad about all those constraints I picture the sweet moments with the knowledge, that there are just a few years left where my daughter and son are small enought to want to play with me ;)
Being 5 months into the parenting adventure, I seem to get a few hours a month on each side project at the moment! It really does make you prioritise. (And work harder on things I can do on my rail commute than other tasks).
I haven't got to the "wants to play with me" part yet, just the "oh man, I just spend half an hour staring at the baby being cute" stage. :)
Her favorite game at the moment is to press all the buttons on my keyboard. Whether or not a computer is remotely nearby.
I might not have much time to bang away on code, but seeing her proud of grabbing and biting a book, is much more exciting.
this is exactly the sort of common statement from parents that is completely impenetrably unfathomable by non-parents and may even frighten the latter a bit as to how something so superficially insipid can attain a compelling and inexplicable level of fascination
Of course, you could say similar things about non-parents playing games for hours and hours which essentially consist of bumping numbers up to higher values in mutable RAM and considering it a "good waste of time"
When they get to the stage of being able to hold objects, this is a major event. When they get the hang of putting stuff in their own mouths during teething, rather than screaming until you let them bite your finger, is another, similar world-changing event.
This was a mystery to me too, before. Now I understand, and am even mildly interested in other peoples' babies (since I have one to compare them with.)
Parenting also has another similarity with D&D: your adversary is surprisingly intelligent. (when they're grouchy, they'll see through your hacks very quickly and scream until you do it properly, however tired you are. A "hack" in this instance might be giving them the same toy to chew again, rather than a new one from the mat.)
But it keeps getting even better- at about 18 months they become "real" persons! I mean they learn to communicate and suddently want things (in the meaning want to do or have).
It's always awesome when my little son takes my hand after dinner and mumbles "build" so I play some duplo with him.
She didn't mind one bit, and there was always someone to discuss the book when I was done!
PG wrote a post a while back about how kids really only have the magic of Christmas a handful of times (ages 3-11?) and then it's gone.
When you're making choices, realize there will always be another framework, another conference, another chance to try out that new tool but your kid is constantly changing, learning, and is fundamentally different today, tomorrow, and a week from now, especially when they're young. I have a 2yo and a 5mo and they get first dibs on my time. After they go to bed, I work until whatever time.. but they're back up by 8am so I take it easy.
Btw, it's fun opening a conference call with "Just so you know, my son is joining us for this call. He's not NDA'd but he's 2 years old, doesn't write yet and has a very limited vocabulary. Are you okay with that?"
And then if it's internal-only, I turn on video for a minute so he can wave at everyone. ;)
My 3 year old makes a lot of noise and is quite prone to tantrums. Some of my clients are also quite prone to tantrums. Combining the two seems like a recipe for disaster!
Compared to my kid, all else is secondary. I realize that I may not always have the freedom to work with a kid-friendly employer, but it will be an overriding criteria in terms of my workplace/career choices. I'll happily negotiate on other terms, but my time and priority for my kid. And if an employer does not agree, it's their loss, not mine.
I get your concern but it's a non-issue here.
Edit: Thinking more about this.. If my team was deeply offended by this, I don't want to work there. My boys are important to me and if they're not willing to accept that, I'd rather find a new job than raise f-d up boys that don't feel loved.
No, it's not that big of a deal, it's just something I'm not interested in interacting with, and if you're the guy who always has to introduce his kids at the beginning of conference calls, I'm probably going to generally avoid you unless I absolutely need you for something.
I'm sure if I had a kid I'd feel entirely different, but I don't. I also try not to involve my lifestyle choices on conference calls, so I really feel this doesn't go both ways.
You would be annoyed if you had to answer an email or phone call when you were trying to hang out with your kids. The rest of us are annoyed with the constant interruptions.
It is extremely selfish and others are too polite to tell you to knock it off. If everyone acted like OP, nothing would get done because there would always be a kid, cat, dog, whatever stealing focus. I need to get my work done so I can go home.
- Says person with desirable skills in a hot job market who never changed jobs since graduating college
If that is unprofessional, then so is working from home, I guess.
If that can't be arranged, you reschedule the call.
You do understand that sometimes the alternative to the kid sitting quietly in their parent's lap is the kid screaming their head off on the other side of the home office door, right?
Personally, I'll take the kid sitting in the parent's lap as being the lesser by far of two annoyances, thanks.
Whoever is looking after the child should not be allowing them to sit outside the office door and scream! If you're home alone with a kid, you shouldn't be taking conference calls (except under emergency situations e.g. sick kid + critical call).
Right, so only people in two-caregiver households get to work from home. Got it.
Everybody up and down this thread who is assuming that there even is another caregiver needs to check their privilege.
I am not a parent myself, but I have been on conference calls where a colleague tried to keep a child out of their home office for a few minutes (like, for the part of the call when it was their turn to give an update) and it blew up in their face. Just let the kid sit in your lap already, it's fine.
edit: If it lends any weight to my opinion, I guess I could also point out I work from home and that that despite your assumption I've been the only parent for two children <= 5 years old for the last 9 weeks.
The need isn't particularly controversial, the availability and affordability is.
I'm not saying is the right or wrong thing to do, I'm just saying the message is clear.
I guess it depends on the team/clients, but my kid comes first, 110% of the times. I don't care. I do good work, if a 5-10 minute interruption on a call because my kid wanted to say 'hi' to the people in the computer is enough to piss people off, I won't work with them.
The fact some people think like that is what dismays me with the corporate world, I'm glad I got out and I'm never going back. Thanks for reminding me.
I've had my infant on video calls and he mostly wanted to see all the people. And I've had to turn off my camera to change diapers before. But everyone's been cool with it. Clients seem to like seeing him.
On the flip side, I've been on calls with people whose toddlers were running around their home office screaming, and that's not cool.
My desk has a number of puzzles and they have a ton of fun playing with it. Sometimes they draw on the whiteboard or write a quote.
A++, would definitely recommend bringing kids a couple of times a year.
Of course it helps to work in a company producing things that might be actually interesting to kids in the first place. If all you're doing web-blah, ymmv..
Bonus points if you ever leave the webcam on while changing a diaper or breast feeding. :-D
No, I am not kidding or making up any of the above, though it wasn't all the same kid, nor all the same day (or even the same workplace), and admittedly I have no phobias or allergies.
What it comes down to is a trade-off. If you want me working on the off hours and working 50+ hours a week, or working on days I'd otherwise take as a sick day, I get to bring my kids to calls.
Once a kid knows how to behave appropriately in public, any exposure to their parents' jobs also teaches them how to behave appropriately at the workplace, and what to expect after leaving school. If you don't accept this at your own workplace, you are pushing that burden onto someone else's workplace, or accepting by default any cultural shift that may occur in future workplaces.
As I would not expose my own kids to a workplace environment that I did not find to be minimally acceptable, seeing kids around is to me a sign of a healthy work environment. Not seeing them is a red flag, but it could just be because your workplace does not allow visitors.
This is the same principle that causes me to lower my opinion of employers that do not hire people with zero experience. You are simultaneously pushing the burden of assimilation and training onto other people, stunting the development of the people you do hire--as they are denied mentorship and leadership opportunities--and passively accepting that you have a much reduced role in shaping the future of the industry.
I am dodging meetings all day long...
Hmm.
With clients, I can definitely see it being a bigger problem.
Maybe this is just evidence that a lot of people I work with just aren't developers because they love development that much - they like it enough and it pays enough to get the things they want in the rest of their time and there's nothing wrong with that.
Probably not, but I usually don't mind. For that matter, the gloss of "professionalism" is highly overrated (I'll take empathy plus moral, ethical, and responsible conduct over "it's just business" type "professionalism" any day of the week).
Of course, it does depend on the behavior of the kid in question. I would expect a parent whose kid is disrupting the meeting to excuse themselves, or at least mute the mike on their end. That goes double for pets.
...
Frankly given the hours people work, I respect that they're taking time to be with their kids and trying to find some balance in between the insane hours we work.
Concerning the Christmas thing: for me my children brought back the magic of Christmas for me too! When it was a super stressful time the years before, but now I can enjoy it again thanks to their enthusiasm and spirit.
There are two types of people: Who like kids and think it is cute and the other half.
Personally I'd hate rush calls that are business only and straight to the point. Virtually all my calls include some offtopic. And that's fine, we're humans, not robots.
Pasting the lyrics here (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/harrychapin/catsinthecradle.h...) :
"Cat's In The Cradle"
My child arrived just the other day
He came to the world in the usual way
But there were planes to catch and bills to pay
He learned to walk while I was away
And he was talkin' 'fore I knew it, and as he grew
He'd say "I'm gonna be like you, Dad
You know I'm gonna be like you"
And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home, Dad
I don't know when, but we'll get together then
You know we'll have a good time then
My son turned ten just the other day
He said, "Thanks for the ball, Dad, come on let's play
Can you teach me to throw", I said "Not today
I got a lot to do", he said, "That's ok"
And he walked away but his smile never dimmed
And said, "I'm gonna be like him, yeah
You know I'm gonna be like him"
And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home, Dad
I don't know when, but we'll get together then
You know we'll have a good time then
Well, he came from college just the other day
So much like a man I just had to say
"Son, I'm proud of you, can you sit for a while"
He shook his head and said with a smile
"What I'd really like, Dad, is to borrow the car keys
See you later, can I have them please"
And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home son
I don't know when, but we'll get together then, Dad
You know we'll have a good time then
I've long since retired, my son's moved away
I called him up just the other day
I said, "I'd like to see you if you don't mind"
He said, "I'd love to, Dad, if I can find the time
You see my new job's a hassle and the kids have the flu
But it's sure nice talking to you, Dad
It's been sure nice talking to you"
And as I hung up the phone it occurred to me
He'd grown up just like me
My boy was just like me
And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man in the moon
When you comin' home son
I don't know when, but we'll get together then, Dad
We're gonna have a good time thenThanks for sharing!
There's more to life than working every hour you can, and preparing for more work in between.
Go out, see the world, spend time with your favourite humans and other animals. You'll have a richer life.
Well, yes, but playing around with the bleeding edge now means that you get to legitimately claim "x years experience" when it suddenly becomes "new and productive".
Not that I actually like that particular dynamic, or the recruiters who make it a useful strategy.
I work for a big international company that is gradually sinking, and continually laying people off and replacing them with offshore staff. I'm sure I'm not alone among HN readers. I have no idea how much longer I'll have a job for, or whether there will be other opportunities when I finally lose mine.
I have no kids and nobody else depending on me, but still have massive anxiety about being able to provide for myself and remain employed in the future. All recent trends seem to point towards jobs becoming less secure and more globalised.
It's great to be aware of the important things in life, but I can't think of many more depressing scenarios than having children depending on me and no idea how to provide for them.
Setting some context: I have two kids, 2 and 1. And a mortgage thats too big and a job situation much like yours (do we work for the same company?? :))
Use this time right now to figure out what YOU want. That includes a general life path which prioritizes work or family - or for the rare person, both. And also what you want immediately-take risks now if that so interests you. Figure out what works and what doesn't in office politics. Expand your network. Expand it with quality connections. Then expand it some more, as if you were a politician. Learn.
The ability for you to remain at one job more than 3 years will be rare, and thats ok. Assume you won't have serious FU money, and so you need some backup plans for things you can't control.
If you do none of the above, at least don't just sit around waiting to get laid off. Its not good for the company, you, or your future.
I think this is more about your frame of mind. Without a wife or kids, you are in a fantastic position to establish leverage, wherever you may be. One mistake I made in my early career was trying to stay on top of the tech and credentials. After running my own business for a few years, it became very clear that things like empathy, physical dominance, patterns of speech, grooming, and basic manners are far more powerful when it comes to getting what you want.
Maybe 'most', but some of it is important in terms of developing your skill set. It can be difficult to know which bits are going to become important (popular), so learning about as much as you can will a) increase the chances of you learning about something that will become relevant, b) getting better at filtering out the noise.
Why do parents think popping out a kid gives them some mystical wisdom? Maybe it just gives you one thing to focus all you energy on and suddenly that feels really important?
Setting aside the emotional part of the equation, having kids _is_ very taxing on your time and energy. It forces you to prioritize like never before. And that shows in your work. You are forced to learn how to focus on bigger-picture issues because there's no time for bullshit anymore.
To reply directly to the OP: if there is an OSS project on Github that is really important, your green graph will stay green. If its not important, it won't stay green and it won't matter anyway.
Cancer would probably have the same effect, but I prefer having kids. To each his own.
Too many things people say are "just because I think so" without much thinking going into why or how they came to that conclusion. So, maybe calling out baselessly opinionated people is ok?
As an aside, seems like the response was in the same tone as the parent's comment.
>So, maybe calling out baselessly opinionated people is ok?
Of course it's okay. But call them out by saying they're wrong/baseless/uninformed, not by dismissing their "right to an opinion".
And, in such cases, I don't think people can be allowed hide behind the "right to an opinion". If you think about it, this is the source of "alternate facts".
But, hey, that's just my opinion :)
Great. That means I should not feel bad about any hypothetical statistics that show parents paid less than non-parents. You're saying parents are, on average, statistically, not as useful as non-parents to a company.
If you're focusing on learning each new whizbang whatsit that comes out, you'll never learn how to lead a team. You'll teach your employer that you can be abused, because you are desperate to impress them.
Giving up a family to stay ahead will leave you a lonely, burned out mess. This is a marathon, brother, not a sprint.
False dichotomy fallacy. There's plenty of programmers I admire who aren't apparently parents. And there's happiness studies which show neither a positive nor a negative gain when parenthood arrives.
Curious footnote: I tried to google further studies that creativity goes down once fatherhood strikes (which I have read in the past), and instead found this piece: https://onbeing.org/blog/becoming-a-father-restored-my-creat...
Please read what was written, and what I replied.
> If you're[…]
I'm not. Your comment is completely disconnected from what I said.
> learning each new whizbang whatsit that comes out
Is that the only way you know how to improve yourself professionally? If so then I think you're doing it wrong.
If you're a developer doing network stuff, then given a few years you could get a CCIE or something, and learn tonnes of stuff and be a more valuable employee. You don't have to try to stay on top of the latest developments in SDN. That'd probably be a waste of time.
Frankly I think those of us who have been in the industry over 15 or 20 years know that adopting new technologies is not the hard or important part. Having the wisdom about how, when, and what to apply things, recognizing good engineering, and learning to work well in a team -- that's what's important.
Having kids might mean you can't stay up at night learning the latest JS framework -- but that very likely might be a good thing.
How about just taking an online class in old traffic theory, to improve your network coding skills?
Your whole comment is attacking some straw man.
Thing is, in most cases, your value as a software engineer is very marginally related to your ability to keep up with the latest and greatest of everything. In fact an obsession with bleeding-edge technology can be a sign of indifference toward what you're actually being paid to do.
This hypothetical person spending 16 hours a day doesn't have to spend it on latest and greatest, which you and many other comments seem to assume.
I do not have children but I do not want to spend much time learning outside of my work. But some parents like to learn outside of work.
He does not cite any statistics either so you are making a lot of shortcuts.
Also, being "good" isn't simply a function of whether you've read up on the latest tech fad. A lot of the stuff we chase is an incremental improvement (and in some cases a step backwards).
Parenting also helps practice empathy, which is an severely underrated skill in technology circles.
"Dude we totally have to use this new technology I read about on HN at 2:00 in the morning. It looks so cool!"
"Let's use the technology we always use because we know it works for what the client needs and I'll still be able to pick up my kids at 5:30."
Who are you giving your money to?
I'm not following this huge leap that you and other commenters are making.
How about choosing between the people who have twice as much experience with managing this Oracle cluster you have. Do you want the one with 10 years experience, or the one with 20 years and is credited in Oracle documentation?
(all else being equal)
Most of these things the HN crowd obsesses over are shit, and the things that replace those things will also be shit, and the thing you make with those things--even if it makes you fabulously wealthy--will also be shit, and if you don't believe me, take Ryan Dahl's word for it: https://gist.github.com/cookrn/4015437
So rather than worry about sliding further away from the apex of our shit pyramid, ease up and enjoy the ride. You may even come up with something of actual value to society along the way.