Comments like this make it hard to take any side of the discussion seriously.

/Neither/ of the OSes are "Escher'esque nightmare[s]." My elderly mother can kludge her way through both of them, more or less reliably - admittedly, with more trouble than using her phone, but not a lot more.

Nothing that a tech-illiterate can reasonably use on a day-to-day basis qualifies as a "nightmare." Can we please stop pitching hyperbole-for-effect until it nullifies the entire discussion?

• macOS Finder: http://i.imgur.com/9Y5hK0e.png

• Windows Explorer: http://i.imgur.com/ef7CnJ4.png

Alright. Maybe not nightmarish, but one of these IS objectively more convoluted than the other.

Let's start with something simple:

WHY does the "Options" button on the Windows Explorer Ribbon (in the top-right corner) drop-down to reveal a SINGLE menu item which DOES THE EXACT SAME THING as clicking on the button itself?

(Bonus: This is what happened when I tried to take a screenshot first: http://i.imgur.com/UsN554o.png — Explorer hanged when trying to remove a shortcut to a now-missing network share.)

I see the MacOS Finder and see unlabelled icons. My elderly folks are terrible at remembering what various icons do, and what error messages are for, etc. I've trained them to pause and read the words on the toolbar, read the words on the window, etc. as they're generally self-explanatory.

So the finder that is more convoluted for a more proficient user, is the one that my folks can actually more reasonably navigate.

Okay, your criticism is on point: the Explorer Options button has a redundant click. To me, that would matter if I ever used anything other than keyboard navigation. To my mother, father, and sister, "yay! It's f'n labeled!"

My nieces don't give a damn either way, because they're too young to care about one unnecessary click, and they don't forget what the icons mean.

Your point isn't wrong, it's just not that clear-cut an issue when dealing with different people with different levels of proficiency and needs.

But the fact that we're down to "labels vs. reasonably intuitive icons, plus or minus a redundant click" suggests we're well into the weeds of trivialities.

You're a miracle worker. :)

Failure to read what's on the screen is one of the biggest reasons why "non computer" people don't get things done with computers.

In any case, the longer label could have been implemented as a simple mouse-hover tooltip, instead of an extra button alongside the primary button that expands to a menu with a single item (with its own icon too!)

I'm not just comparing it to macOS; the Windows UI is heavily flawed not only in terms of efficiency in usage of system resources, it is inconsistent with itself, and baffling no matter which school of design you adhere to.

The option button was just one of the immediate examples I could point out in a quick reply. There is still a lot to pick at in that screenshot without comparing it to any other OS.

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As an aside, I don't think that "average" or new users are a good gauge of how well-designed a system is; people can learn and put up with horribly unintuitive interfaces out of necessity when they don't have any better alternatives. Just look at computers and phones and other devices and systems of only 20 years ago. Many will make you go "how the hell did we live through that?!"

Likewise, "All My Files" sorts based on... what? And which folders does it look in? Because very often I save a file from the Internet and it never shows up in All My Files. And when I search for something when I'm in a directory, I expect the search to be restricted to that directory by default. Instead it defaults to My Mac, which makes no sense. Is there also no way to get the current path as text? On Windows I can type "C:\Users\My Documents" by hand in Explorer. I don't see an option to do that in Finder.

Explorer isn't perfect, but Finder is just awful. Just awful.

Right-click on the toolbar and select "Customize Toolbar...", then drag the "Path" button into the toolbar.

In macOS, generally:

⌘ Command = App-specific shortcuts. The primary modifier key.

⌃ Control = Global shortcuts. App-specific shortcuts will not generally have Control as the sole modifier.

⌥ Option/Alt = Something to with the keyboard, selection, or secondary modifier for a shortcut. Option+Up/Down is Page Up/Down.

⇧ Shift = Something to with the keyboard, selection, or secondary modifier for a shortcut.

Common shortcuts are way more consistent than in Windows, and you can search for them from the Help menu of any app, and even modify/create shortcuts for any app from System Preferences -> Keyboard.

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> As far as I can tell, there's no non-keyboard way to do it.

Right-click on the folder icon in the title bar, use Columns view, or show the Path Bar from the View menu.

> Likewise, "All My Files" sorts based on... what?

Files in your home folder's hierarchy, that are indexed by Spotlight.

> And when I search for something when I'm in a directory, I expect the search to be restricted to that directory by default. Instead it defaults to My Mac, which makes no sense.

Keyword: defaults. You can change it.

> Is there also no way to get the current path as text? On Windows I can type "C:\Users\My Documents" by hand in Explorer. I don't see an option to do that in Finder.

"Go to Folder", it's under the Go menu.

To copy an item's path name, hold down Option/Alt to modify the "Copy" menu item.

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Most of your complaints are basically "it doesn't do everything the way Windows does it so it's bad" or "I'm furious because I didn't bother to tweak the defaults."

"You are holding it wrong".

The only reason to know this seems to be because someone has told someone it seems.

There is no indication in the design of the element, and IIRC not even a subtle glow when you mouseover.

Sorry: as much as I like Apple I don't waste my time on their software. Not saying it is bad but for me I had to admit it was a waste of perfectly good working time and focus.

If you like it: good. I know people who seem to be more productive with Macs. And more Apple users is good news for both Linux users and Windows users since they force companies to think cross platform and force Microsoft to be more humble.

It's okay to have to be taught some things, it makes it better for pro users when the handholding is minimal.

Here's another one: hold alt when a menu is open to see some options change into alternate versions. Instant feedback, works on dialogs too. Keeps the UI uncluttered for noobs and power users alike without significantly impeding you.

HOW is Cmd+Up NOT an obvious shortcut for going UP one level? As I said, Cmd is already the primary modifier key for all app-specific shortcuts.

On the other hand, what does Windows use? BACKSPACE! A key people associate with deletion and editing text!

> Hold down option to change the right click menus?

Option modifies shortcuts, changing their behavior. "ALTernate." Again it's a behavior that's consistent across all macOS apps.

> Explorer is terrible but it's better than Finder because you don't need to read a manual

You don't need to read a manual for Finder, or almost any macOS app, because you can just click on the Help menu, and type the name of a command or action you expect that app to be able to perform, and it will automatically highlight the menu which contains that action:

http://i.imgur.com/HNUNqpN.png

I just typed "path" in the Finder help menu and it showed me the shortcut for "Copy as Pathname" including the Alt/Option modifier. And that works in EVERY macOS app. Try doing that in Windows!

Back when I used it, 5 years ago, it was a solid mess IMO:

Jump one word forward or backwards?

Windows/Linux: ctrl + arrow

Mac: depends on which program you are currently using

IIRC our resident Mac enthusiast explained that it was because some was written in carbon and some in cocoa or something but I don't care.

Opening a file upload dialog box in one browser window would block other windows from the same browser forcing me to use two different browsers: one for docs and one for the task at hand.

This went on for 3 years and in the end I looked as much forward to leave as I had once looked forward to get a Mac.

To each their own but Mac users talking about consistency and ease of use still baffles me.

> Windows/Linux: ctrl + arrow

> Mac: depends on which program you are currently using

I don't know what the deal is with Carbon - it was already dead 5 years ago, even Photoshop transitioned in 2010 - but everything I use uses option-arrow. Even the terminal.

> Opening a file upload dialog box in one browser window would block other windows from the same browser forcing me to use two different browsers: one for docs and one for the task at hand.

I just checked and at present in Safari, file upload dialogs block the current window (i.e. can't access other tabs) but not other windows. Though to be honest, I don't understand why you needed to keep file upload dialogs open… why would you click the button to pop the dialog if you weren't intending to immediately select a file? But I guess https://xkcd.com/1172/ applies :)

Would finding and copying a somewhat long folder path from the internal wiki qualify as a good reason?

macOS has demonstrably more discoverability than Windows; Not only are shortcuts consistent across all apps, but the visuals of common UI elements are the same as well, so a new user will immediately know what does what, in different apps. Whereas on Windows, you have a multitude of menu, button, scrollbar etc. styles right out of the box, in Microsoft's own apps!

macOS also has a list of all mouse/trackpad gestures — complete with videos — in System Preferences. Likewise, all global keyboard shortcuts are visible in one place as well (Keyboard preferences, where you can modify and even create your own shortcuts for ANY app.)

Best of all however, you can click on the Help menu and just type the name of a command or action that you expect an app to have (for example a filter in an image editor) but don't know its shortcut or which menu it's under, and the unified menu bar subsystem will automatically highlight all matching menu items and their shortcuts for you:

http://i.imgur.com/HNUNqpN.png

Here in that screenshot I wondered about the ability to copy a folder or file's pathname, and the Help Search pointed it out to me! And it works in EVERY macOS app! Does Windows have anything which comes close to aiding in discoverability like that?

I will concede your point on iOS, however.

In windows, to jump to a file starting with 'docu' one can start typing d o c and explorer will jump the file.

Likewise, it's possible to tap d d d d to navigate between all files starting with 'd'.

Is there a way to do either of these with finder?

Typing the same letter a second time in finder will go to the last file starting with that letter, which could be a handy feature. But d, down, down, down seems almost as good a d d d.

I don't use Windows, but it's important to use fair comparisons.

You have to expand it and be faced with that hodgepodge of cluttered buttons to perform many functions. Even with it collapsed, it's still 4! toolbars (counting the buttons in the title bar and the ones in the bottom status bar) and a menu (?) style that is inconsistent with many other built-in Windows apps.

A+

While you can argue about whether or not the option to modify folder settings belongs within that window or on a title bar, taking screenshots like that is dishonest, at best.

This is the default view for Finder on a new user account: http://i.imgur.com/Dni0Kpo.png

The only thing I changed in this Finder screenshot is collapse the auto-populated Devices, Shared and Tags list for privacy, so I didn't have to edit the image. Notice that it defaults to the "All My Files" view which is empty for a new user and would be even more of an unfair comparison to the default Windows view.

Which even is the options on Finder? The cog, I assume. If I'm helping over the phone, can a user describe the current state of Finder? Not really. But I could ask for the contents of the address bar in Explorer.

• Click on the first icon/happy face at the bottom of the screen (to make sure Finder is in focus).

• Click on "View" at the top of the screen [or press Cmd+Option+P] to show the Path Bar.

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To guide someone to a specific folder:

• Click on "Go" at the top of the screen [or press Cmd+Shift+G].

• Type the address.

The Windows Explorer uses Alt+Enter to show the properties of something, and in games and other apps that shortcut means Full Screen.

Also, why does Alt+F4 quit an app? What does F4 stand for? Compared to Cmd+Q to Quit or Cmd+W to close it's a lot less intuitive.

And so on and so forth.

Because "Enter" has been used a key to activate/open the currently selected item in various UIs across various platforms for several decades now?

Also, possibly, because the button is labeled "Enter"? I guess on Macs it's "Return" though, but that doesn't really make any more sense.

Alt-F4 makes little sense, true, but in almost all windows apps control-q or control-w does exactly the same thing as on osx.

Also, having sane defaults for keys people are likely to press is much more important than /not/ having obscure keyboard shortcuts that users never have to know even exist.

In particular, if you have unsaved data, most apps will prompt to save on Alt+F4.

However, Alt+F4 translating to WM_CLOSE is also handled by the app message loop - i.e. Windows sends WM_KEYDOWN events for those keys, and when they get to the event loop, it's supposed to call TranslateMessage. That one normally handles WM_KEYDOWN -> WM_CHAR translation, but it will also handle any shortcuts, and this includes Alt+F4. So if the app is hanging, messages aren't pumped, and the shortcut doesn't work. To send WM_CLOSE, you'd need to use the close button on the window.

So if the app does close on Alt+F4, it was, at the minimum, pumping messages and invoking TranslateMessage on them.

Launching processes with a single keypress and no confirmation can hardly be called "the least destructive action."

(As a sidenote, you can drag documents from the finder into a Terminal window and their absolute paths appear at the cursor position).

As for Cmd+Q and Cmd+W, those might be somewhat more intuitive, but only for some languages, and arguably only very vaguely intuitive for Cmd+W even for english speaking people.

But then again, I don't think there is a real notable difference in the end between most modern systems. It's more of a question of what we are used to.

Lol. 10/10 troll.

http://i.imgur.com/Dni0Kpo.png

http://i.imgur.com/TM8ZyLg.png

The Finder is still less cluttered, with all its buttons in 1 toolbar instead of spread across 4.

http://imgur.com/a/5AGBU

If it's 2, that's because other items can be added to that menu, such as LastPass and Bitdefender just to use the examples conveniently at hand.

And as a quick tip if you need to take a lot of screenshots on Windows - Greenshot is a great screenshotting program for Windows (and OSX, though I don't know how it is there), free, GPL, etc. Binds the PrtSc button and lets you select the area you want to capture as well as destination, format, etc.

And as for when the ribbon is closed, assuming you're using an appropriate language selection I think I'd find "File/Home/Share/View" at least as informative as "4 squares/4 lines/3 boxes/multisize boxes" - and the text labels next to them on the Windows side when you're on the View ribbon to be much more informative.

It's a bona-fide menu item, accessed via that extra dropdown button below the primary "Options" button.

Totally disagree. I hopped from OS to OS for over a decade every other year or 3 (Win, OSX, Linuxes with various DMs/WMs) and it's always, always an adjustment period from "WTF is this" to "totally productive with this now", usually a matter of 1-2 weeks. Happy with Fedora/Gnome right now but have to say just Explorer itself beats Finder and Nautilus (rebranded as "Gnome Files" apparently now) for keyboard users when it comes to out-of-box file managers.

The weird new tiles/metro UI stuff they tried pushing from Win 8 is of course a pretty bad attempt to Microsoftify the "secondary desktop layer" concept that has been prevalent on the other OSes for longer, and better. It sucks, but also useless and thus not used for many/most power users I'd guess.

The rest of the "UI" question is in the hands of individual independent app developers, as it properly should be.

Well I'm kinda visual/directional when it comes to files and other data structures. Even before I had a PC that could run Windows, ie living in MS-DOS and certainly being aware of navigating and operating the file-system via CLI, I much preferred the blocky-ASCII-GUIs (with menus and "windows" and panes, usually both mouse&keyboard-capable) of Borland, MS and many other software vendors incl "commander"-type fie managers. So.. probably a very longstanding "habit" thing.

The irony is in those days the "power-user" in general was adamant to get as quickly and as far away from the CLI as they can, even though they need to know some basics to automate script and launch stuff. Other than the odd GNU beard. Whereas the 2017 generation loves the CLI, would never have predicted such a thing! =) I've found time and again that once one operates with more than 1 or 2 dozen commands, it's disturbingly often `command --help` or `man command` first because there are only words (that vary from command to command) absent a program based on and supporting the rich set of commonly-used, de-facto-standard spatial gestures and interaction primitives that have evolved over the years.

Of course, not exactly comparable, but it's pretty amazing.

Your pwd opens up in vi and you can edit it as you see fit. When you :wq! all of the filename changes you have made get written to the directory.

It also has a well integrated terminal with directory tracking, so it is straightforward to switch between command line and graphical operations.

Have you checked out Nemo, which is basically the good old, full-featured Nautilus?

Uh... no. No, you can't do that.

WiFi configuration was annoying. Lots of clicking. No consistency to the UI. And for a relatively new laptop, it was slow. OSX in comparison was simple, relatively straightforward, and responsive.

Certificates were a joke. We could import certificates and CAs. But once imported, they didn't do anything. Access to the corporate intranet was still blocked with "unknown CA". When we went back to see if the certs had been imported... nope. No certificates. OK, import them again? Nope, still no certificates on the machine.

We gave up and let him use a spare Mac Mini.

I hate where Apple has been going with OSX: Slow strangulation by oxygen deprivation. But until it becomes entirely unusable, it's still better than Windows for me.

Install (only) MS Word - - another cycle of updates. Restart, check updates, more updates!!! It's just insane. Why does it download Outlook spam filter update, 100mb?I don't have Outlook installed, I only wanted freaking MS Word.

Granted, Windows has a usable file manager (Explorer) and Finder is an embarrassment, but theres always Path Finder.

Apple's notebooks are excellent, no argument there.

Unfortunately Windows 8 and 10 are just not great OSs, in my opinion. A major theme on these threads is "Apple is trying to force mobile onto desktop computers." yet I see Windows doing it just as much, and not nearly as smooth, as Apple. Cortana, weird metro UI layout, terrible settings, confusing maintenance, updates never work, slow response times, etc.

I gave up on Windows 10 when I got my father a new laptop and had to troubleshoot my sister's. The OS is a mess. Finding basic things is so difficult. Just give me a control panel. Now we have "Settings" too, which is just a mess. Windows Update never works properly. It constantly needs a troubleshooter to run and start and stop the services again.

My dad didn't want to log in with an email to his laptop. So I disabled it (which was difficult to find, so I had to google it.) Now it's suddenly back, and he's complaining about it. There's no way he manually did it purposefully.

Trying to disable things like Cortana never works right. The huge debacle of info being sent to microsoft and needing heavy workarounds to actually prevent it from occurring. And then being force fed apps with advertisements built into the OS...come on.

Apple simply needs to improve their hardware at their price point and 90% of these threads wouldn't be made. The OS needs some additional features and improvements, but the experience is just so much better than Win10 and 8 for me.

My current build uses Windows 7 and whenever it is officially unsupported I will move on from Windows completely.

The old Control Panel is still there.

> Trying to disable things like Cortana never works right.

Cortana is a settable option. There's no reason to try to disable it.

*> Now we have "Settings" too, which is just a mess.

Settings is a clean, well-organized and simple app that does what most people want. It saves ordinary users from having to grapple with the Control Panel.

You'd probably do better if you spent more time in learn mode instead of in angry mode.

And you'd probably do better if you weren't condescending towards other people's experiences and preferences.

You say the Settings app is great, yet it's not great enough to replace the control panel? Redundant settings abound between the two?

There are many reasons to want to disable Cortana-not just turn it off, because it doesn't actually turn it off.

As far as search goes, my Windows 7 machine finds most settings too.

The Control Panel remains because a lot of hardcore Windows users would have bitched if Microsoft had removed it.

As usual, Microsoft would have been criticized for whichever decision it made. That's life when who have more than 400 million Windows 10 users.

It was simply intended as good advice.

If you think about it, there are good reasons for moving settings to a simpler, touch-sensitive, sandboxed app.

If you think about it, there are good reasons for moving settings from the Control Panel in stages, and for keeping the mouse-oriented Control Panel program around for people who have grown used to it.

If you've read the book, the anger is a System 1 rant and should be modified by System 2 thinking.

Windows is easily the most visually inconsistent OS out there -- even in comparison to a Linux desktop. That has it reasons of course, many features are in there that didn't need any kind of update in the last 15+ years, therefore their UI was never updated to conform to updated guidelines and so on.

Exactly. Honestly it's linkbate nonsense. Sucks you in like a car crash on the side of the road or a hockey fight.