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Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by freehunter on Sunday March 05, 2017 @03:12PM (#13798264)
There's a lot to not like about Windows's UI, but Explorer is worlds better than Finder, there's absolutely no comparison. Every day I still struggle to remember how to go up a level. Option+Up? Nope that selects the next folder up. Control+Up? No, that made all of my windows do something weird that I don't know what that is. Ah, it's Command+Up. As far as I can tell, there's no non-keyboard way to do it. I can't click a button and go up to the parent folder, all I can do is go back, which is confusing if I forget what the previous folder was.

Likewise, "All My Files" sorts based on... what? And which folders does it look in? Because very often I save a file from the Internet and it never shows up in All My Files. And when I search for something when I'm in a directory, I expect the search to be restricted to that directory by default. Instead it defaults to My Mac, which makes no sense. Is there also no way to get the current path as text? On Windows I can type "C:\Users\My Documents" by hand in Explorer. I don't see an option to do that in Finder.

Explorer isn't perfect, but Finder is just awful. Just awful.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by akio on Sunday March 05, 2017 @04:14PM (#13798694)
> As far as I can tell, there's no non-keyboard way to do it. I can't click a button and go up to the parent folder, all I can do is go back, which is confusing if I forget what the previous folder was.

Right-click on the toolbar and select "Customize Toolbar...", then drag the "Path" button into the toolbar.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by Razengan on Sunday March 05, 2017 @05:18PM (#13799132)
> Option+Up? Nope that selects the next folder up. Control+Up? No, that made all of my windows do something weird that I don't know what that is. Ah, it's Command+Up.

In macOS, generally:

⌘ Command = App-specific shortcuts. The primary modifier key.

⌃ Control = Global shortcuts. App-specific shortcuts will not generally have Control as the sole modifier.

⌥ Option/Alt = Something to with the keyboard, selection, or secondary modifier for a shortcut. Option+Up/Down is Page Up/Down.

⇧ Shift = Something to with the keyboard, selection, or secondary modifier for a shortcut.

Common shortcuts are way more consistent than in Windows, and you can search for them from the Help menu of any app, and even modify/create shortcuts for any app from System Preferences -> Keyboard.

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> As far as I can tell, there's no non-keyboard way to do it.

Right-click on the folder icon in the title bar, use Columns view, or show the Path Bar from the View menu.

> Likewise, "All My Files" sorts based on... what?

Files in your home folder's hierarchy, that are indexed by Spotlight.

> And when I search for something when I'm in a directory, I expect the search to be restricted to that directory by default. Instead it defaults to My Mac, which makes no sense.

Keyword: defaults. You can change it.

> Is there also no way to get the current path as text? On Windows I can type "C:\Users\My Documents" by hand in Explorer. I don't see an option to do that in Finder.

"Go to Folder", it's under the Go menu.

To copy an item's path name, hold down Option/Alt to modify the "Copy" menu item.

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Most of your complaints are basically "it doesn't do everything the way Windows does it so it's bad" or "I'm furious because I didn't bother to tweak the defaults."

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by freehunter on Sunday March 05, 2017 @08:30PM (#13800083)
And most of your solutions are incredibly non-obvious, just like Cmd+Up. Right click on the folder icon in the title bar? Hold down option to change the right click menus? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Explorer is terrible but it's better than Finder because you don't need to read a manual or tweak the defaults in order to make it work in a predictable manner.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by tnone on Monday March 06, 2017 @05:40AM (#13801834)
You can right click on the folder/document icon in the title bar in any app, and you can left click it to drag it. The icon, not the window. What's bizarre is how Windows has trained people to see icons as non interactive stickers instead of reactive proxies for the underlying object. The fact that many labels in Windows still don't update until you close and reopen the dialog is ridiculous, as is the continued use of "ok" "cancel" preferences.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by reitanqild on Monday March 06, 2017 @11:30AM (#13803716)
You can right click on the folder/document icon in the title bar in any app, and you can left click it to drag it. The icon, not the window.

"You are holding it wrong".

The only reason to know this seems to be because someone has told someone it seems.

There is no indication in the design of the element, and IIRC not even a subtle glow when you mouseover.

Sorry: as much as I like Apple I don't waste my time on their software. Not saying it is bad but for me I had to admit it was a waste of perfectly good working time and focus.

If you like it: good. I know people who seem to be more productive with Macs. And more Apple users is good news for both Linux users and Windows users since they force companies to think cross platform and force Microsoft to be more humble.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by tnone on Monday March 06, 2017 @12:44PM (#13804397)
Not everything has to be equally discoverable. By that same logic, the majority of right click interactions are off the table. You can right click window icons in Windows too, with no visual cue either, they just act different and the surface area is much smaller. Titlebars also don't tell you you can drag them, and essential productivity shortcuts like alt-tab are not advertised either.

It's okay to have to be taught some things, it makes it better for pro users when the handholding is minimal.

Here's another one: hold alt when a menu is open to see some options change into alternate versions. Instant feedback, works on dialogs too. Keeps the UI uncluttered for noobs and power users alike without significantly impeding you.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by Razengan on Monday March 06, 2017 @02:47PM (#13805469)
> And most of your solutions are incredibly non-obvious, just like Cmd+Up.

HOW is Cmd+Up NOT an obvious shortcut for going UP one level? As I said, Cmd is already the primary modifier key for all app-specific shortcuts.

On the other hand, what does Windows use? BACKSPACE! A key people associate with deletion and editing text!

> Hold down option to change the right click menus?

Option modifies shortcuts, changing their behavior. "ALTernate." Again it's a behavior that's consistent across all macOS apps.

> Explorer is terrible but it's better than Finder because you don't need to read a manual

You don't need to read a manual for Finder, or almost any macOS app, because you can just click on the Help menu, and type the name of a command or action you expect that app to be able to perform, and it will automatically highlight the menu which contains that action:

http://i.imgur.com/HNUNqpN.png

I just typed "path" in the Finder help menu and it showed me the shortcut for "Copy as Pathname" including the Alt/Option modifier. And that works in EVERY macOS app. Try doing that in Windows!

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by reitanqild on Sunday March 05, 2017 @05:55PM (#13799369)
In macOS, generally:

Back when I used it, 5 years ago, it was a solid mess IMO:

Jump one word forward or backwards?

Windows/Linux: ctrl + arrow

Mac: depends on which program you are currently using

IIRC our resident Mac enthusiast explained that it was because some was written in carbon and some in cocoa or something but I don't care.

Opening a file upload dialog box in one browser window would block other windows from the same browser forcing me to use two different browsers: one for docs and one for the task at hand.

This went on for 3 years and in the end I looked as much forward to leave as I had once looked forward to get a Mac.

To each their own but Mac users talking about consistency and ease of use still baffles me.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by comex on Sunday March 05, 2017 @06:34PM (#13799571)
> Jump one word forward or backwards?

> Windows/Linux: ctrl + arrow

> Mac: depends on which program you are currently using

I don't know what the deal is with Carbon - it was already dead 5 years ago, even Photoshop transitioned in 2010 - but everything I use uses option-arrow. Even the terminal.

> Opening a file upload dialog box in one browser window would block other windows from the same browser forcing me to use two different browsers: one for docs and one for the task at hand.

I just checked and at present in Safari, file upload dialogs block the current window (i.e. can't access other tabs) but not other windows. Though to be honest, I don't understand why you needed to keep file upload dialogs open… why would you click the button to pop the dialog if you weren't intending to immediately select a file? But I guess https://xkcd.com/1172/ applies :)

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by reitanqild on Monday March 06, 2017 @06:09AM (#13801932)
Though to be honest, I don't understand why you needed to keep file upload dialogs open… why would you click the button to pop the dialog if you weren't intending to immediately select a file?

Would finding and copying a somewhat long folder path from the internal wiki qualify as a good reason?

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by oneeyedpigeon on Sunday March 05, 2017 @05:58PM (#13799381)
These are the things that bug me the most about macOS. See also: page up / page down, home / end. For an OS that seems to want to care about consistency, to have pretty much every app interpreting the most common keyboard navigation differently is incredibly annoying.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by hvidgaard on Monday March 06, 2017 @03:12AM (#13801397)
The complaint is that Apple software tend to be throughly lacking in the discoverability part of their UI. It is especially bad on iOS.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by Razengan on Monday March 06, 2017 @07:46PM (#13807450)
Which issues are you specifically referring to?

macOS has demonstrably more discoverability than Windows; Not only are shortcuts consistent across all apps, but the visuals of common UI elements are the same as well, so a new user will immediately know what does what, in different apps. Whereas on Windows, you have a multitude of menu, button, scrollbar etc. styles right out of the box, in Microsoft's own apps!

macOS also has a list of all mouse/trackpad gestures — complete with videos — in System Preferences. Likewise, all global keyboard shortcuts are visible in one place as well (Keyboard preferences, where you can modify and even create your own shortcuts for ANY app.)

Best of all however, you can click on the Help menu and just type the name of a command or action that you expect an app to have (for example a filter in an image editor) but don't know its shortcut or which menu it's under, and the unified menu bar subsystem will automatically highlight all matching menu items and their shortcuts for you:

http://i.imgur.com/HNUNqpN.png

Here in that screenshot I wondered about the ability to copy a folder or file's pathname, and the Help Search pointed it out to me! And it works in EVERY macOS app! Does Windows have anything which comes close to aiding in discoverability like that?

I will concede your point on iOS, however.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by _kyran on Sunday March 05, 2017 @11:59PM (#13800795)
Speaking of the nuances of Finder.

In windows, to jump to a file starting with 'docu' one can start typing d o c and explorer will jump the file.

Likewise, it's possible to tap d d d d to navigate between all files starting with 'd'.

Is there a way to do either of these with finder?

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by prewett on Monday March 06, 2017 @01:43AM (#13801088)
The way to do the first one in Finder is to start type d o c, as you might expect.

Typing the same letter a second time in finder will go to the last file starting with that letter, which could be a handy feature. But d, down, down, down seems almost as good a d d d.

Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by russellbeattie on Sunday March 05, 2017 @05:38PM (#13799258)
I've learned to right-click the title on the toolbar, which shows a dropdown of folders above the current one, which you can select to go up.
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by scaryspooky on Sunday March 05, 2017 @08:18PM (#13800037)
Funny you call it a right click...
Re:Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up by antfarm on Monday March 06, 2017 @04:39AM (#13801642)
Just cmd-click the window title. Works in every document-based native macOS app btw.