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Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by Bartweiss on Thursday March 02, 2017 @02:14PM (#13777226)
Any time I see "we're going to train everyone better" or "we're going to fire the guy who did it", all I can read is "this will happen again". You can't actually solve the problem of user error with training, and it's good to see Amazon not playing that game.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by jacquesm on Thursday March 02, 2017 @06:46PM (#13779470)
What bothered me about running TrueTech is that customers would sometimes demand repercussions against employees for making mistakes.

Enter Frans Plugge. Whenever a customer would get into that mode we'd fire Frans. This was easy, simply because he didn't exist in the first place (his name was pulled from a skit by two Dutch comedians, bonus points if you know who and which skit).

This usually then caused the customer to recant on how he/she never meant for anybody to get fired...

It was a funny solution and we got away with it for years, for one because it was pretty rare to get customers that mad to begin with and for another because Frans never wrote any blog posts about it ;)

But I was always waiting for that call from the labor board to ask why we fired someone for who there was no record of employment.

Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by justin_oaks on Thursday March 02, 2017 @07:50PM (#13779852)
It is unreasonable for me to think that company owners should have the spine to say, "We take the decision to fire someone very seriously. We'll take your comments under consideration, but we retain sole discretion over such decisions."

It irks me that businesses fire people because of pressure from clients or social media. But having never been the boss, I may be missing something.

Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by patio11 on Thursday March 02, 2017 @09:20PM (#13780263)
One reason to like a facet of Japanese management culture: if a customer wants someone to rake over the coals you offer management, not employees.

Internal repercussions notwithstanding, externally the company is a united front. It cannot cause mistakes by luck, accident, or happenstance, because the world includes luck, accidents, and happenstance, so any user-visible error is ipso facto a failure of management.

Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by mml on Thursday March 02, 2017 @10:55PM (#13780644)
apparently this is (or was) a job in japan. companies would hire what amounts to an actor to get screamed at by the angry customer, and pretend to get fired on the spot. rinse, repeat whenever such appeasement is required.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by marklyon on Friday March 03, 2017 @07:01AM (#13782290)
I know one person who does this for real estate developers. He gets involved in contentious projects early on, goes to community meetings, offers testimony before the city council, etc. When construction gets going and people inevitably get pissed about some aspect of the project, he gets publicly fired to deflect the blame while the project moves on. Have seen it happen on three different projects in two cities now and, somehow, nobody catches on.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by codeisawesome on Saturday March 04, 2017 @04:06AM (#13790066)
I don't know how to describe this in a single word or phrase appropriately, but I think it is a "genius problem" to exist. Not a genius solution. I feel that the problem itself is impressive and rich in layers of human nature, local culture etc - but once you have such a problem any average person could come up with a similar solution, because it is obvious.

It's still mind blowing and very amusing that this is a thing in our world!

Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by patio11 on Thursday March 02, 2017 @10:59PM (#13780653)
Do you have a citation for that? I am curious; it's something I've never heard of and goes against my intuitions/experience regarding what traditionally managed Japanese companies would do. (Entirely possible it has happened! Hence the cite request.)
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by thr0waway1239 on Friday March 03, 2017 @01:29AM (#13781135)
Imagine if the customer saw the same actor getting fired in different companies! Is the customer going to catch on? More likely, they will think "Yeah, no wonder there was a problem. This same incompetent dude wormed his way into this company too" :-)
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by Bartweiss on Friday March 03, 2017 @09:56AM (#13783228)
There's a movie sketch in here somewhere. A guy has the worst day of his life, every single thing goes wrong, and at every single company the same person is "responsible" for the issue.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by thr0waway1239 on Friday March 03, 2017 @11:02AM (#13783725)
Awesome! The first movie ever made based on an anonymous comment on HN. Wait. So I can't get a cut in the profits then?
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by kriro on Friday March 03, 2017 @04:07AM (#13781640)
Well, well, well...scribbles note into Trello: "Today I got fired, it was all my fault, our poor customers suffered" Blog posts as a service.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by gioele on Friday March 03, 2017 @01:46AM (#13781179)
Inspired by the Daniel Pennac's novels? https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga_Malauss%C3%A8ne
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by ascorbic on Friday March 03, 2017 @04:31AM (#13781719)
The BBC staff have a term for the way the corporation almost does this: "deputy heads will roll"
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by gadders on Friday March 03, 2017 @06:44AM (#13782224)
I always thought that was more a cynical take on the fact that the top guy was protected, rather than underlings.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by ascorbic on Friday March 03, 2017 @03:04PM (#13785862)
Yes, exactly. Hence almost.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by Laforet on Thursday March 02, 2017 @08:29PM (#13780043)
Historically some cultures practiced mock firing as a way to appease an angry customer. This was back in the day when most business transactions occured face to face so the owner should demand the employee to pack their belonging and leave the premises in full view of the customer. Of course this is all for show but this kind of public humiliation seems to satisfy even the most difficult customers.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by jacobush on Friday March 03, 2017 @03:36AM (#13781550)
Even when the customer knew it was show, I see it as a way of saying, "yes, we acknowledge that we screwed up and make a public, highly visible note of it that will be recorded in the annals of peoples' gossip in this area".
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by pilsetnieks on Friday March 03, 2017 @12:18PM (#13784351)
On the contrary, I think it's quite reasonable.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by aanm1988 on Friday March 03, 2017 @06:09AM (#13782083)
Did you ever insist that Frans must be fired and refuse to accept the "we didn't mean it?"

Cause that sounds pretty great.

Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by jacquesm on Friday March 03, 2017 @08:11AM (#13782589)
Well, by then he was fired... :)
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by aanm1988 on Friday March 03, 2017 @12:20PM (#13784362)
and mercilessly beaten?
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by pieterr on Friday March 03, 2017 @05:26AM (#13781911)
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by jacquesm on Friday March 03, 2017 @08:11AM (#13782591)
That's one deserved upvote :)
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by cprecioso on Saturday March 04, 2017 @02:34PM (#13792518)
To what lengths did you keep that up? Did you just tell the client that informally, formally in a reunion or so, or did you actually put it in writing or even fake some "firing" paperwork?
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by problems on Thursday March 02, 2017 @02:34PM (#13777419)
This is true in some cases, but not when mitigations aren't practiced properly - it's not the fat fingered user who should be fired or retrained, but the designer or maintainer of the system that allowed it to become a serious issue.

Look at the recent GitLab incident - one guy messed up and nuked a server. Okay, that happens sometimes, go to backups. Uh oh, all the backups are broken. Minor momentary problem just turned into a major multi-day one.

That's a problem and one which could be preventable with training (or, arguably, firing and hiring). Maintaining your backups properly should be someone's duty, designing and testing systems to minimize impact of user error should be too.

Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by Bartweiss on Thursday March 02, 2017 @03:01PM (#13777660)
Fair enough. I guess what I meant was specifically using training or punishment to combat "momentary lapse" issues.

If someone doesn't test their backups, you train them to test backups. If someone lies about testing the backups, maybe you fire them. But if someone trips and shatters the only backup disk, you don't yell at them - you create backups that an instant of clumsiness can't ruin.

I did overstate, training is perfectly reasonable, but I often see it cited exactly when it shouldn't be, as a solution to errors like typos or forgetfulness.

Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by hibikir on Thursday March 02, 2017 @09:13PM (#13780233)
Training about testing backups is still a bad idea: Why make someone do a job that purely verification? Those jobs eventually stop getting done, and it's hard to keep people doing them.

Instead, you make a machine verify the backups simply by using the backups all the time. For example, at work I feed part of our data pipeline with backups: Those processes have no access to the live data. If the backups break, those processes would provide bad information to the users, and people would come complaining in a matter of minutes.

Just like when you have a set of backup servers, you don't leave them collecting dust, or tell someone to go look at them every once in a while: you just route 1% of the traffic through them. They are still extra capacity, you can still do all kinds of things to them without too much trouble, but you know they are always working.

Never, ever, force people to do things they don't gain anything from. Their discipline would fade, just like it fades when you force them to a project management tool they get no value from.

Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by evilDagmar on Thursday March 02, 2017 @10:10PM (#13780460)
No. You don't make a daily task of testing backups. That would be wrong for precisely the reasons you cite. It's a waste of effort and time, and ignores what the point of testing them is for: ensuring that the procedure still works.

One would only actually test the backups about twice a year just to be damn sure they are still resulting in restorable data. The rest of the year it's only worth keeping an automated process reporting whether or not the things are being made, and people keeping an eye on change management to be sure no changes are made to the known-to-be working process that can break it without the new process incurring an explicit vetting cycle. Gitlab wasn't apparently testing or engaging in monitoring what was supposed to be an automated process. That's where they got burned.

Process monitoring may be boring as hell, but it's seldom wasted effort, and will prevent massive, compounded headaches from bringing operations to a chaotic halt.

Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by dbenhur on Friday March 03, 2017 @12:31AM (#13780954)
> One would only actually test the backups about twice a year just to be damn sure they are still resulting in restorable data.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

You test every backup by automatically restoring from it in a sandbox and verifying its integrity and functionality in the restored state.

Backups are worthless unless verified for their intended use of recovering a functioning system.

Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by XorNot on Friday March 03, 2017 @01:55AM (#13781214)
You're imagining an automated test system. But Gitlabs problem was the automated system was not communicating failures properly.

And constant "this succeeded" messages don't scale well.

Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by cjs on Friday March 03, 2017 @12:25AM (#13780939)
I agree. I have the same policy when setting up servers: don't have a "primary" and a "backup" server, make both servers production servers and have the code that uses them alternate between them, pick a random one, whatever. (I don't always get to implement this policy, of course.)
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by Bartweiss on Friday March 03, 2017 @10:01AM (#13783257)
This makes some sense, but I don't think it negates testing backups? For duplicate live data, yeah, you can't just use both. But most businesses have at least some things backed up to cold storage, and that still needs to be popped in a tape deck (or whatever's relevant) and verified.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by beat on Thursday March 02, 2017 @03:18PM (#13777791)
I don't buy the "If we just plan ENOUGH, disasters will never occur" argument. It's the universe is just too darn interesting for us to be able to plan enough to prevent it from being interesting.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by JupiterMoon on Thursday March 02, 2017 @04:07PM (#13778225)
It is all about hazard/risk modeling and mitigation. E.g.

Someone rm -rf / ing the server will happen eventually with near 100% certainty in any company and can be mitigated by tested, regular, multiply redundant backups.

Cosmic rays flipping bits will happen with near 100% probability at the scale someone like Amazon works at can by mitigated by redundant copies and filesystems with checksum style checks. Similar with hard drive failure.

Earthquakes will happen in some areas with near certainty over the time periods companies like Amazon presumably hope to be in business and could be mitigated by having multiple datacenters and well constructed buildings. Similar for 'normal' scale volcanoes.

Fires will happen but they can be mitigated (with appropriate buildings and redundancy).

Small meteorite stikes are unlikely but can be mitigated by redundancy.

Solar activity causing an electomagnetic storm - yeah one can shield one's datacenter in a Faraday cage but in this situation the whole world is probably in chaos and one's datacenter will be the least of one's concerns (unless shielding become standard in which case you'd better be doing it). Similar applies for nuclear war, super volcanoes, massive meteorite strikes or other global events at the interesting end of the scale.

But yeah there are going to be things that get missed. They key is having an organization that (1) learns from its mistakes and (2) learns from others' mistakes and continually keeps their risk modeling and mitigation measures up to date. And note that many of the hazards that are worth mitigating have the same mitigation i.e. redundancy (at different scales).

Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by sah2ed on Friday March 03, 2017 @06:31AM (#13782161)
"[T]he universe is just too darn interesting for us to be able to plan enough to prevent it from being interesting." -- Beat

That's a great line. How should I attribute it?

Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by beat on Friday March 03, 2017 @10:15AM (#13783358)
If you're actually quoting me somewhere, either use "Dave Stagner", or "Some asshole on the internet". Same diff.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by ufmace on Friday March 03, 2017 @08:56AM (#13782823)
Giving people training in response to things like this always seemed a little strange to me - that particular person just got the most effective training the world has ever seen. If you look at it that way, you could say that everything Amazon spent responding to this was actually a training expense for this particular person and team. After you've already done that, it seems silly to make them sit through some online quiz or PowerPoint by a supposed guru and think you're accomplishing anything.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by awj on Thursday March 02, 2017 @03:58PM (#13778139)
Yeah indeed. You know who the one person at Amazon is that I'd expect to never fat finger a sensitive command ever ever again? The guy who managed to fat finger S3 on Tuesday. Firing him over this mistake is worse than pointless, it offers absolution to every other developer and system that helped cause this event.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by ghurtado on Thursday March 02, 2017 @05:14PM (#13778769)
I'm guessing your comment was inspired by this: http://www.squawkpoint.com/2014/01/criticism/
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by awj on Thursday March 02, 2017 @05:28PM (#13778876)
Not directly, but maybe that was running around in the back of my mind while I responded to it.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by vitalus on Thursday March 02, 2017 @09:32PM (#13780315)
I wouldn't merely call this a fat finger or typo - it's quite possible that the usage of the tool itself was so nefarious that mistakes would be impossible to avoid, given the complexity of its inputs.

Based on Amazon's decision to improve the tooling such that this category of error would be (hopefully) impossible to reproduce, I would lean more towards that being the case.

Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by mulmen on Thursday March 02, 2017 @06:52PM (#13779511)
I think the value of making these mistakes is in learning from them and then making sure they can't happen again. Leaving this process in place and just making this guy run the command forever because he screwed it up once would be a much less effective solution than fixing the tooling so it's impossible to do this in the first place. Saying "this guy don't do it again" also offers absolution to everyone else on the team. In a healthy culture only we can fail.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by bbcbasic on Thursday March 02, 2017 @04:06PM (#13778216)
That old chestnut. Is it true?
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by ellyagg on Thursday March 02, 2017 @04:23PM (#13778351)
Is it not true for you? I know that I'm personally good at avoiding the same mistake. I'm also extraordinarily good at avoiding repeating catastrophic mistakes. I generally change my processes in the same way that Amazon is changing their processes to avoid this mistake.
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by bbcbasic on Thursday March 02, 2017 @06:58PM (#13779551)
I am not talking about what Amazon are doing, but the concept that the individual wont make the same mistake again, which is what the grandparent is getting that.

He won't make the same mistake because no one makes the same big mistake twice? I wouldn't bank on that alone.

Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by linsomniac on Friday March 03, 2017 @12:50PM (#13784619)
Years ago I read a story about a fat-fingered ops person getting called into the CEO's office after an outage. "I thought you were calling me in to fire me." "I can't afford to fire you, today I spent a million dollars training you."
Re:Summary of the Amazon S3 Service Disruption by user5994461 on Saturday March 04, 2017 @09:29AM (#13791003)
> You can't actually solve the problem of user error with training, and it's good to see Amazon not playing that game.

The problem of user error can be mitigated by an appropriate level of OCD.

But OCD can't be trained, you either have it or you don't.