Girl here. The comments you've gotten so far are going about this the wrong way. Arguments about price, ethics, practical tradeoffs are the dead wrong tone. Proposals should be over the top romantic; you'd never suggest skipping a beautiful or dramatic location to save money, right?

Beyond that, this isn't just about how she feels about it. Everyone she knows, relatives, friends, is going to want to see the ring and hear the story. To all of them, a diamond is the gold standard and a cheap substitute will be an awkward counterfeit. Even if you convince her, you are signing her up to have the ultimate celebration of her, the once in a lifetime birthday party, turn into a lot of awkwardness and sympathy. Bad deal.

Ignore the cost. It's impolite to ask and moissanite is expensive enough. If what you do looks legitimate enough, no one need know. The critical key is that you sell this as better, representative of more thought, more effort, more investment on your part.

Focus on that you're doing something different. Something special. Design a custom ring that speaks to you about who she is. Focus on the ways in which the stone is superior to a diamond. It is unusually brilliant which reminds you of her. It is tougher, harder than what everyone else takes for granted. You mounted it with blue stones for her eyes.

Make it personal and in every possible way, about her and as much as possible tell a story that will make her friends wish someone that thoughtful cared about them enough to do something truly special rather than checking the expected box.

If you're old enough to be thinking about marrying your girlfriend, your girlfriend has probably decided already what she thinks about diamonds and spending money on pretty but useless things. And if you've been dating her long enough to think about marrying her, then you should probably have a pretty good guess about how she thinks about it.

First and foremost, it's a proof of social status between her and her peers, so you need to know who her friends are. But there are so many factors to weigh in. Someone I know got a sapphire ring to propose to his girlfriend, and she commented about how she was glad that he remembered that she hated diamonds. A couple I know have silver wedding bands which were made by an artist that they both know. The rings are unique and special—and this is important—in a way that they can brag about. They don't brag about it, but they could, if they were that kind of people.

However, if you are unable to express your concerns about diamonds without worrying that she'll think you love her less, then you are NOT ready to propose. Consider premarital counseling—which is something you do to get ready for marriage, not something you do because you have problems.

There's a catch-22 here: you can't raise the topic of diamonds without her understanding you are thinking about marriage. And even if you've been together for years, it may just not have come up. And people are unpredictable: she may just have an irrational dream of a diamond ring. So I think the worry is justified and not necessarily a sign of insufficient marriage-maturity. But that doesn't change the advice: the only solution is talking about it.

A complete surprise proposal is a bad idea, IMO. We're talking about a (nominally) lifelong decision. In a relationship with good communication, the proposal should be a formality, because marriage has been explicitly discussed, probably many times, over the course of the relationship. It can and should still be a romantic moment and even a bit of a surprise.

It's only a catch-22 if you can't let her know you are thinking about marriage before you propose. Just saying that out loud it sounds like such a ridiculous idea: I might want to marry her, but I can't let her know that I'm thinking about it.

You say it's not a sign of a lack of maturity, but it sounds exactly like a lack of maturity to me (an inability to communicate honestly with someone who you want to spend the rest of your life with about really basic stuff).

If my girlfriend thought that I loved her less because I didn't give her a diamond ring, I'd reconsider my relationship.

Sounds like a good pickup line: "What do you think about diamond ring?"

Better discover the answer after 3 minutes rather than 3 years.

Though liking a nice ring is different from dumping a boyfriend who doesn't buy one.

Except you'll sound like those guys out there trying to hustle fake jewelry in sketchy situations.

I went for a moissanite/diamond compromise with my fiancee and it worked!

Charles and Colvard (the originators of lab grown moissanite) recently released a new generation known as Forever One and these cuts are currently the best on the market. They're brighter and have more sparkle than diamonds and are completely colourless. Essentially, they look better than any diamond money can buy and have the same properties in terms of hardness etc.

Despite all the advantages of moissanite (quality, price, ethics, environment etc), I knew a little part of her still wanted a real diamond on her finger (no matter how much she tried to pretend otherwise!).

My solution looked like this:

1. A 1 carat 6.5mm Forever One moissanite round centre stone (in a halo setting)

2. ~20 tiny, 0.3 carat real side diamonds (F colour, SI clarity - Note: these two metrics are much more important than the carat weight!)

3. 18K gold for the ring itself (bonus: the gold was recycled - feeble but worthwhile attempt to offset the environmental damage of the diamonds)

All told, it came in at under $1,500 (which, sadly, is ridiculously cheap these days for an engagement ring).

She loves it (and got her diamonds), we have more money to spend on other things and I'm happy I didn't lose too much cash and karma to the diamond cartels.

FYI, I did all of this online through https://www.moissaniteco.com. Highly recommend them!

Use the difference in price on a down payment on a home/apartment or open a college savings account for your kids. Tell the truth, you want to build a life together and are thinking about the long term financial and personal consequences of this decision. I bought a ruby for my wife for this exact reason. I also wanted to show our community that we rejected diamonds as a tradition. I think the more we discuss this issue the more likely social conventions will change so future couples won't have to have a discussion.

This doesn't work. I have tried it. She (my GF) just argues with me about any purchase I try to make that is around the ballpark of what she is expecting me to pay for a ring.

e.g.

Her: So you want a new MacBook Pro, but you can't afford a $3000 engagement ring?

Me: No, I need a MacBook Pro for work.

This has been going on for quite some time now.

tell her you'd rather set the $3k on fire - as in, real fire, with smoke and all - while she watches than buy a diamond ring. be prepared to follow through.

oh also don't listen to advice on the internet.

The trick here is to use good-quailty counterfeits, and then afterwards ask her if she feels the same way about the ring. If so, buy it. If not, spend the money on something else.

Also, don't do this.

I don't agree with people that say just because she wants the diamond ring, it means the relationship is a bad relationship. It's not irrational to feel social pressure, and feel real pain by not conforming to social norms. At the end of the day if she is happier, that is where she drives economic utility. Just keep at the dialogue, and try to communicate how spending money on something you consider to be unnecessary and imprudent actually harms you emotionally. Hopefully, you will be able to have a nice dialogue and compromise so that you both feel respect from the other person.

In a situation like this it is quite impossible to give a good advice.

I would recommend you to read the book How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World. Not because of your question regarding the diamond ring but generally.

Sounds like a bad relationship to be in :(

If you can afford a $3k MBP, you can afford a diamond ring. And her diamond ring will be worn forever, your shiny new laptop will be on Craigslist in 5 years.

>> her diamond ring will be worn forever

The divorce statistics say something else.

If this is their first marriage, it has something like a 70% of being worn until death. The Macbook has a >90% chance of being relegated to the trash heap in less than 10 years.

A diamond ring loses a large amount of its value when you purchase it, because engagement rings don't really ever sell for what they bought them for. If he uses that MBP for work, it is a return on the investment as it allows him to earn income with it, eventually (hopefully) more than what he spent on it.

The diamond just sits on her finger for bragging rights.

a 3k MBP provides a lot more value than a 3k diamond ring

if used correctly, a 3k MBP is a netgain

And a wife is a net loss monetarily. I guess you shouldn't get married then

You seem to get emotional. Because a guy on the internet does not want to by her GF a diamond ring? Why do you care at all?

Getting married is emotional.

Shouldn't get married.

Getting married is probably something worth getting emotional about. Strangers on the internet having made different decisions (or even thinking badly about my decisions) probably isn't.

you can get married without a diamond ring or a expensive marriage. its only a netloss if you make it one

Ok, fine then...a kid is a net loss, a particularly large one at that. Should you not have kids then?

Kid is a pretty solid long time investment(¹), which makes wife a cofounder. Good cofounder won't ask to burn some money to celebrate foundation of the company:).

(¹) of course some children are still a net loss, but other investments fail too so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Your assertion was "if you can afford a $3k MVP you can afford a $3k ring." That the MVP shows a financial return speaks directly to affordability. The parent is not making a claim that financial return is the only thing relevant to decision making.

MBP, of course. Dang autocorrect...

Find a documentary about blood diamonds. Find some excuse to watch it while she's around, and don't let her stop you. Swear and say that you aren't going to hurt people for a wedding ring! Say she can have any thing but a diamond! Etc. Good luck with the drama :)

The documentary would have to be from the early 90's since there's almost no blood diamonds in the rough market

That's just clearly false. The Kimberly Process wasn't even introduced until 2003! Why would they have done so if there were no issues in the preceding decade?

Further, Wikipedia has this to say:

"The effectiveness of the process has been brought into question by organizations such as Global Witness, which pulled out of the scheme on 5 December 2011, claiming it has failed in its purpose and does not provide markets with assurance that the diamonds are not conflict diamonds."

Ask her to read this article, and the Atlantic one it links to. My now-wife couldn't stomach the idea of wearing a diamond after learning about the industry. She went with a sapphire from a reputable company instead.

Other tip, her and I went ring shopping together, which really helped alleviate the pressure of trying to pick out something she'd enjoy wearing for many decades. She was still pleasantly surprised by the prosposal a couple months later, although she obviously knew it was in the cards at some point!

Yeah we did a Sapphire as well, it's crazy what colors you can get. I asked her to marry me without a ring, and then we designed the ring together. Altogether a much less stressful experience and the surprise was still there.

I convinced mine, but, obviously, YMMV. I was lucky in that she's divorced, so has already gone through with that, and hate hate hated the idea of debt.

We had already had conversations about getting married, that sort of thing, so when it came to the ring it was easy to bring it up. I mentioned I was a little reluctant to go with a diamond; I said I was -willing-, but due to the intentional supply limit and the ensuing price hike, it would necessarily be small, as I was not willing to go into debt for it (which she was already in agreement we should never do; beware if your significant other has no issues with going into debt). Had she considered alternatives, such as moissanite?

I showed her some images and videos of moissanite, compared price, showed it was nearly as hard -and- glittered more (and that I could get her a 2+ carat stone for what ~.5 carat diamond of comparable color and clarity would cost, and that at < 1/10th what a 2 carat diamond of comparable color and clarity would cost), and she was convinced enough to go scope it out at a jeweler's that carried it.

I also mentioned the possibility of gemstones; there were plenty that were gorgeous and would be more distinctive than diamond, and set her apart from other women (who, after all, could only brag about the size of their diamond, rather than how it had special meaning to them). Etc.

At the jeweler's as she explored different stones, she ended up picking out an aquamarine that she really liked (and then found out that was my birthstone, locking in the decision even more).

Apparently couples spend on average $4k on a wedding ring and from moissanite.net I see the most expensive ring costing $2,575. If that's too "low" then keep buying necklaces, ankle bracelets and belly button rings until it adds up to $4k.

Try something like this: http://www.kokes.net/projectlonghaul/projectlonghaul.htm

From reading this, just show it to her. It says people can't spot the difference.

> people can't spot the difference

OK, story time:

Way back, a friend of mine in High School wanted to give his girlfriend a ring just randomly (for no occasion), so he bought a cheap one, like $10. So he's going to wrap it as a gift at home, and he needs a box. Asks his big sister, and he gets an unused proper ring box from a local jewellery store. Wraps gift, puts in girlfriend's mailbox as cute surprise, and when she opens it of course it's too small. So girlfriend takes box and ring to the jewellery store named on the box, and asks to swap it for one that fits. And the shop assistant doesn't spot it's a $10 ring, so girlfriend gets a nice silver/zirconium ring that fits, costing like $150. The day after she tells boyfriend she had to go to the store and swap it. After a few minutes he realises what's happened, but of course keeps very quiet to her about the true story, and enjoys his status as the super romantic/affectionate guy.

Meanwhile someone else probably paid $150 for a $10 ring ... I wonder if they ever found out.

Meanwhile everyone else probably paid $150 for a $10 ring.

Lying is a great way to start a relationship. Then when she goes to get the ring insured or tries to add it to your homeowners or renters insurance and the appraisal comes back you can have the informed, rational discussion of your thought process with no fall out. Just in case someone wants to avoid that approach, it might be helpful to have some specific arguments. I think it is good to point out what you could use the money for instead. If you show that the money could be used to strengthen your relationship over the long term, that should show deep concern and love for your partner.

> > From reading this, just show it to her. It says people can't spot the difference.

> Lying is a great way to start a relationship.

It sounded to me like the advice was "show her the fake diamond, so that she can see that it's visually indistinguishable from a real one" rather than "present her the fake diamond as a real one".

Spend 10% on the ring and the extra 90% add to the honeymoon budget, or buy her something she actually needs.

So, lie?

I think the point is that when she wears it around her friends, she can omit the fact that it's moissanite and her friends will think that it's a big, brilliant diamond.

Tell her that she has a choice, she can get an expensive ring that looks the same as that less expensive ring. Except that with the less expensive ring you're going to spend 3 weeks in Asia road tripping from Thailand to the Philippine in paradisiac places.

I hope the ending :) indicates that you are joking. If this is a legitimate fear, I would strongly reconsider this relationship.

Screw the synthetic advice here and go buy the ring pre-owned or buy the diamonds direct from a wholesaler and get them set in a new piece.

try to make one at home?

men and women are different hombre, you won't convince anybody without muscle.

Please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News.

A $2000 ring is cents per day for a long marriage.

66% of marriages survive 10 years. The ring would cost 50c per day.

Buy the ring, and spend less of coffee.

That assumes that a more expensive ring buys a stabler marriage. Actually the opposite seems to be the case:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2501480

That paper doesn't attempt to make a causal link. It's possible that being broke during the courtship process (when the ring is purchased) is what leads to a lasting marriage. I also can't find any discussion of the cost of the ring to the cost that could have been afforded. Is there a comparable outcome from someone who could easily afford a $10k ring but instead spends $1k vs someone who can only barely afford the $1k ring in the first place?

Nothing in my comment is saying that buying an expensive ring will save a marriage.

I'm only saying that if your marriage lasts for 10 years, which about 66% of them do, it's weird to complain about the cost of a ring when there will be very many more expensive and equally bullshit things to spend or not spend on.

The divorce rate is increasing every day. One shouldn't based a decision on outdated marriage statistics from 10 years ago. Just sayin'

the divorce rate has actually been falling steadily since about 1980.

My wife-to-be and I agreed to skip 'engagement' and the money we would have paid for a ring covered the entire cost of our wedding and an all-friends garden-party.

To this day, no-one has asked my wife why she only has a [tungsten] wedding ring and no engagement ring. So that's 50c per day saved for better causes. And we have lots of good memories from the party.

Cool, if someone's prospective wife doesn't want a ring they can spend the money on whatever they want.

Here, though, GP makes it sound like his SO wants a diamond ring.

Why is everything an investment

How many starving/diamond mining children in Africa can 50c a day feed?

A US marriage is phenomenally expensive. If you want to send 50c a day to Africa, and you can't afford it, it's probably better to cut back on dressed chairs at the wedding than to tell your future wife who wants a ring that she's not going to get one.