Hi, appreciate the feedback; I'm one of the engineers working on the project at Sonder. Our CEO actually has a Model M and an Apple Extended Keyboard II as reference designs in the office; they're probably the pinnacle of good keyboard design and construction however the product you're asking for (a mech switch display keyboard) already exists and it costs $1500. The reality is, that approach is not optimised for mass production and we would price out most of our market (like Apple is doing now).

Once we ship the product for laptop integration, we will push out more premium designs for those used to mechs and / or gamers.

P.S The perphial keys which were static in the old design was because we had to use an existing display. Making a custom E Ink display needs to be in at least 300k minimum order quantity so we had to wait until we had a mass production order; the current design has a new display which means all the keys are remappable.

Please consider split keyboards with raisers for future advanced models, I have a Kinesis Freestyle 2 with VIP3 kit, and this is the best keyboard I've ever used as far as ergonomics -- and it doesn't have to have such a large footprint or long travel keys to be ergonomic, though the riser and the wrist rests are almost indispensable.

The Goldtouch Go!2 tried to go in the direction of an ergonomic mobile keyboard, but the layout is crap and the separation of the two pieces and wrist rests make the Freestyle 2 vastly more ergonomic. You could also make 2 pieces that are separated completely wirelessly.

I used to have a model M-type keyboard, and I would disagree that these are the pinnacle of good keyboard design. Typing on a flat keyboard is not natural/good for your hands as you are almost constantly near the limit flexibility of your wrists and arms.

I agree with your points on ergo design, we did a survey with the thousands on community members and only like 4% would buy an ergo design which was lower than expected. It's important for us to address from a design perspective but we want to do incremental keyboard revision, otherwise consumers won't be able to adapt to the massive transition in a dynamic and ergo design.

Yes, I think it makes 100% sense that you guys focus on a mobile keyboard for the step 1. And I think you guys made a very good start at it by using Apple design as a reference, using a reversible connection, and adding backlighting. From an ergonomics standpoint, Apple's keyboard is actually fairly good for a straight keyboard.

When you do get to step 2 tough, I think that 4% will prove to be underrated, because (a) RSI cases will only grow as the generations who grew up typing on computer keyboards gradually become a larger share, and (2) those making a living typing on a computer keyboard, insurance companies and employers who want to reduce costs are likely ready to spend hundreds for a healthy keyboard (I know I am).

The Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 might make a good reference design. With all those programmers, they've got a pretty good dog fooding process for keyboard ergonomics. And the 4000's are very modestly priced...another good reason to have one as reference.

When I say I'd pay a silly price, I wasn't thinking quite Art Lebedev silly! They discontinued the nicer one (Maximus).

Didn't realise the display was a single piece. Must make the switching and springing challenging to say the least. In fact I struggle to work out how you do it reliably with the tiny space between keys.

One to watch I hope. I look forward to interesting new products! Perhaps not a million miles from a modernised M with media and so forth. Or ergonomic.

ps, licence your keyboard to Apple in preference to getting bought by them, the Linux and PC worlds might like them too. ;)

We basically redesigned the mechanism from the ground up; I can't comment on it specifically since it's all IP sensitive but a different approach whilst preserving the same tactile feel.

I've been wanting a keyboard like this for years, well done I hope you make a success of it. I use a steelseries keyboard because it has lots of macro keys and great macro software. It's amazing how benficial macro keys are, even for simple macros, like copy paste or paste values, relieves strain of always using ctrl key combinations. I often forget which macros I have assigned especially on programs less frequently used so e-ink for macro keys would be a huge benfit for me.

Didn't you just just acquired by Apple?

Our comms lead, Orli did issue a statement but we can't comment further on the Apple rumours.

https://sonderdesign.com/press-release-20161017/

Neither the Model M nor the AEK II is a “pinnacle” of anything. The best keyboards were made earlier, in the 1970s. By the mid-1980s when the Model M debuted, or the early–mid 1990s of the AEK II, keyboards were already started along their downward cost-and-quality-cutting slide, albeit not yet to the final rubber dome ditch of the late 1990s through 2000s.

If you can, try to find an Apple Standard Keyboard (M0116) or Apple Extended Keyboard (M0115), with orange-slider Alps switches. Try to find one in as close to unused condition as you can (ideally you want something which was stored inside a box for 25 years), as getting dust inside the mechanism affects the typing feel of Alps switches dramatically. If you can, also try to find some blue-slider (clicky) Alps switches from the same time period (late 80s through about 1990).

Most keyboard “enthusiasts” agree that these are nicer keyswitches than the AEK II’s cream-slider Alps switches. The later switches were after some cost cutting design changes at Alps (and maybe production expansions to new factories?). And also have their feel somewhat compromised by the inclusion of rubber dampers in the switch which were added to cut some of the sound.

Also, instead of a Model M, see if you can find a Model F. They’re in my opinion much more satisfying to type on, albeit a bit louder.

Other clicky switches you might try are blue SMK switches, black NMB–Hi Tek switches, and IBM beam spring switches.

Thanks for the comment, you're very right; but these two were mass production units that still preserved much of what the earlier units great. We have a few earlier Apple alps kbs you mentioned, but I'll shoot the Model F to our slack channel.

You are not the target audience.

i will pass on this one because they keys are probably garbage, but I change my layout between several languages and i actually have some of the layouts printed out because i am still not very familiar with them.

Not my use case either, but visit any audio or video editing room. I will bet you money that every workstation will have colorful stickers on top of all the keyboards to remind the operators which keys do what on their audio/video editing software.

Oh I see that. Even then I see cases I'd find it useful - software I don't use daily, learning something like vi, games etc. Enough that I'd buy a mechanical if they ever made one.

I see it as a vastly better add for a Macbook Pro than the touch sensitive bar.

Yeah I could use this for French, even though the keys probably feel horrible.

The 'cloud connected' stuff is an obnoxious gimmick, but Das's upcoming 5q is pretty close to what you're looking for:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1229573443/das-keyboard...

It's a small thing but a lot of editors who travel from studio to studio will have their own work process, it's very specific to power users; which this product is designed for. If the feature is a gimmick to you, it's fine; but others really appreciate it and in testing with video editors etc it's something we get a ton of feedback for including.

>If the feature is a gimmick to you, it's fine

If I'm familiar with an application, I don't look at the keyboard. If I'm VERY familiar with an application, I don't even recall commands through their mnemonic, but through muscle memory.

For example, I've just switched to spacemacs from vim, and one of the first commands to learn is Ctrl+G, which is to exit from any menu. "Escape from menu" is not mapped into my brain as C-g, but as "pinky here and left index finger here." In contrast, when I want to change to next buffer, I think <SPC> b n, and not "thumb, right index finger on this button, then right index finger on this button" (although I'm sure that it will become muscle memory before long.)

HOWEVER, the nice thing about spacemacs is that you can press space and you see all possible commands pop up in the command buffer. This is a highly effective method for learning commands, and it is similar to how the "ribbon design" functioned in Microsoft Office 2007. This is where I think the E-ink keyboard could be most useful: in teaching keystrokes. It's essentially the same thing as looking down at the spacemacs command buffer, but you get to see the command pop up on your keyboard.

That being said, there are a lot of downsides to the whole idea. You're stuck with a very limited set of switch-and-layout combinations if you want an e-ink keyboard. Secondly, keyboards take a lot of abuse, and I don't know how much a replacement e-ink keycap costs, or where I'm going to get one (maybe this won't be such an issue, though). Finally, the glyph can only be represented as a glyph, and not as a detailed command like it can in a spacemacs buffer.

Cool product though; I'd get one if I had money to burn!

Thanks for the feedback, some interesting insights from other vim users.

P.s The E Ink display isn't in contact with the actual user, the keys are just a transmissive body for the display.

Have you considered just storing the settings and configuration in the keyboard itself?

Haha, of course, we have an API on the client which comms with the on board flash; the cloud is just a back up of a user profile so if an editor is at a new studio they can dl their profile quickly. It's an option that creative design demographic constantly ask for.

So the keyboard works fine, including all other features, without connecting to the "cloud"?

Correct, the cloud is just an option which is off as standard.

they got a interesting full sized keyboard (that has dying appeal) and added the most obnoxious software 'features' they could think of. Everything from Das is really dysfunctional and sad. And i really wanted to like them.

>>Everything from Das is really dysfunctional and sad. I don't think that's fair. I've had a Das for a couple years now (Model S Pro, IIRC) and it's a solid, well designed keyboard. No obnoxious software AFAICT.

The whole "cloud keyboard" thing does sound gimmicky, I just don't think it's reasonable to paint their entire product line that way.

Interesting idea. I can think of a couple of uses I'd put that to.

If it wasn't cloud config I'd back it enough to get one.

Appreciate the feedback, it's just an option; if the user just wants to rely on the mappings stored on flash they can.

To clarify, I was disliking the DAS keyboard he linked having config that's crowd sourced and appears to be permanently connected.

For your keyboard I would highlight how the config only optionally uses cloud and that your settings are quite happy offline. I see cloud and keyboard or mouse and think "avoid". A couple of gaming devices and their awful connected software has caused that reaction. I'd expect some others to make similar association! :)

I have a Das Keyboard, it's a really nice product, mechanical switches etc.

I don't see a use case for this though, I rarely look at my keyboard.

And why is that?

Because usually there's absolutely no reason to do so, because it's static and you you have the layout in muscle memory.

- because the density of information on the screen is higher and the screen is much larger.

- Because staring at your keyboard isn't great for your neck.

- Because when I'm typing I'm outputting my brain into the computer, I'm not trying to take in input.

- BECAUSE YOUR HANDS BLOCK THE KEYBOARD.

The mouse is more of a follow and enter type of interface, as is touch. Keyboards are a high ply (eg 102 keys + shifts) with chords and chains, in that a you generally hit a series of keys to do something (typing) and not a single button. So massively more options than the 12 they can get up there on the top row. So memorization wins out in my mind here.

Where I think this would help is when you're learning new things and have to move your hand to figure it out. Like say a new character in dota... but again the monitor is better.

This keyboard looks cool tho. Tho wish they'd put some non-mac pics up.

I've always thought that adaptive key display keyboards were a really strange market. You need the intersection of (enthusiasts who will pay ~$300+ for a keyboard) with (users who don't touch type).

It's a fun novelty for sure, but I feel like the above target market is so tiny that the majority of purchases will be impulse buys because it seems cool, rather than because it's actually useful.

I think it'd be cool for programming, I have RSI and find using the shift key + another key painful. I also rarely use the number keys above the letters (I used num pad) so changing all those keys to the shit_key equivalent would be neat.

And rearranging some of other keys would be great.

And don't get me started on games, oooooh, how often to I buy a new game and forget what 'm' does? Knife? Grenade? Pickaxe?

Firstly: RSI is no joke - if you're experiencing pain, there's a non-zero chance it'll develop into a serious medical condition. (At MIT's Media Lab, someone's RSI got so bad he couldn't type at all and had to invent an interface using vocal phonemes to encode common OS actions/lexical keywords to control his OS (OS X) / editor (emacs) / language of choice (python)).

If you feel even the slightest bit of pain, that's your body signalling to you 'hey buddy, don't do this'. I was suffering from emacs pinky to the point where my hands were aching hours after leaving my desk. On weekends, my tennis racket grip was significantly weaker and form poorer. Mapping Ctrl to caps, right shift to Esc, and buying a $30 MS Ergonomic keyboard solved my issues. My friends who have had worse issues spent the $300 on a Kinesis (which I had up until then considered to be snake oil) but it seems to have solved their issues entirely (and for $300 it's definitely a cheap investment compared to the opportunity cost of the time invested in physical therapy).

If you're on Linux, you can at the os-level make modal changes. I made the right-alt key move into a different mode, so I effectively get an entirely separate key-mapping when that key is depressed. (E.g., hjkl for me is OS-wide, and sdfg lets me move the cursor. nb. Were I to make this decision again, I'd use Caps as my primary modifier, [ as my secondary, effectively giving me four full keyboard maps. Probably overkill but if I were using something like SolidWorks or Illustrator where having both keyboard and mouse access available often, I'd be experimenting with a setup like that -- keeping my right hand always on the mouse, and left for keyboard shortcuts -- biasing all of the shortcut keys to the left-hand region of the keyboard.)

ErgoDox implements a similar system but on the micro-controller level so you don't even have to putz with modifiers and it's cross OS. I don't have one but I would have bought one if I used a desktop more often, simply due to the trackball-feature (effectively letting one use a mouse without leaving the home-row -- a 'must-have' for me).

Echoing the parent, take it very seriously. One thing that helped me was an verticle mouse (Evoluent C in my case). There's on one thing that will solve you're problems, just bit a pieces that will contribute to long term management.

One other thing is WorkRave which reminds me to take breaks. This is helpful for my hands, but has been frustrating for getting into the groove of programming.

The vertical mouse thing being "ergonomic" is nonsense. There are studies that have shown this. From memory it was generally worse for you to use a vertical mouse in terms of productivity and comfort.

The only thing vertical mice reduce is wrist movement.

Perhaps you might appreciate a different perspective. Broadly speaking, ergonomic devices are meant to combat repetitive strain injuries. I think of ergo devices as useful if they give you more variation. They might not be better positions in themselves, but switching between palms down and palms sideways when moving from the keyboard to mouse gives you variation that helps to combat RSI. At the very least, I couldn't put my palm down without pain for a while, so a sideways mouse is better at least from that vantage point.

Great post and an important disclaimer... take RSI seriously. I went the Kinesis route and switched to Dvorak (after taking a week off from typing) and I've never had a problem since (I ditched the Kinesis after a couple months and went back to my laptops keyboard).

If your pinky issue comes back, try Xah Lee's ctrl-palming method[0]. It's even less strain than Caps Lock IMO.

[0]: http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_pinky.html

RSI made Richard Stallman stop coding. It just got too painful for him and he eventually refocused his efforts on outreach. The Internet would not be what it is today without RSI.

Having recently noticed a little carpal tunnel (though in truth I don't know how to distinguish the two) and got rather sensitive to where my wrists rest on a laptop I can sympathise! I switched to a vertical mouse earlier in the year which has helped massively. My right wrist was always the most affected, and it turns out it was mostly down to mousing.

Very true on games. I'd use for this too, and learning. Like someone else mentions a reactive keyboard would have been great when I was learning vi!

> Having recently noticed a little carpal tunnel (though in truth I don't know how to distinguish the two)

Carpal tunnel syndrome is a specific condition where your carpal tunnel constricts around a nerve. RSI is the umbrella term for these types of injuries.

May I recommend switching to vertical keyboard and mouse? Here https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79810.0 you can see my solution made from tripod parts and the Matias Ergo Pro which is a) mechanical b) split c) uses tripod screws. For vertical mice, the Evoluent VerticalMouse is fantastic and you can get previous generation (which are just as fine) used on eBay for $25-30.

You might consider either Autohotkey for Windows, or Keyboard Maestro for Macs (or something similar for Linux, I'm sure). You can rebind keys, including shift and control/command, to whatever or wherever you want.

I did it to get control on the caps-lock key, but never conditioned myself to use it.

> so changing all those keys to the shit_key equivalent would be neat

An appropriate typo, because with this keyboard you can probably map the happy-poo emoji to your shit_key.

Have you considered trying a keyboard with more thumb keys, and using a thumb for shift?

(Or if you’re stuck on a standard keyboard, I recommend you try to use the opposite-hand shift key.)

For your RSI check out keyboardio, it's a nice clean ergo design with a mech.

Odd that it is based on the standard Mac keyboard.

If you're going to build a premium keyboard, then why not add mechanical keys, full size arrow keys and PgUp PgDn?

Given some of the comments in another recent thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12828398) your coworkers just might kill you for using a loud keyboard (but given the construction of an IBM Model M, you will probably be able to defend yourself with it).

Been carrying an MX blue keyboard from workplace to workplace.

Not a peep of complaint from a coworker yet.

They must not be complainers. They probably hate you in secret.

Agree. Model M / Cherry blues are too loud for any shared space. Even Topre switches are probably kind of annoying, but it's a lower-pitched sound so not as noticeable.

Because it's a prototype, we went for existing displays and a 60% was the closest. Besides, you for your a 104 key keyboard and the price just doubled.

Can't PgUP be remapped, it's a dynamic keyboard.

>However, if it was a Model M chassis

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing while reviewing this.

An e-ink cherryMX switch keyboard, with a backlight and numpad, would be an instant buy from me (even in the hundreds of dollars range).

Me too :D

Once we ship the first laptop module and standalone, it's the planned next product (maybe with colour E Ink if E Ink Holdings has a time line for release).

> sculpted full travel loud mechanical keys

I learned to type on a Model M keyboard. But are they actually better? Or is it all psycho-somatic? I don't think I type any slower on a modern scissor-switch keyboard. And frankly it's a lot less physical exertion and not to mention quieter.

I've had a lot of keyboards over my 35 years of computing. I stuck with Thinkpads for years because they had scissor keys that compared with a desktop, had decent travel and a distinct click. Desktop's included Microsoft Natural, standard OEM, through midrange to Roccat with cherry browns, and a Razer with blues.

None of them have lasted, or had the build quality, or felt as nice. More than a few have been actively irritating. The silly price Roccat was the least reliable of the lot.

I keep coming back to my M. If it's placebo it's a convincing one.

> But are they actually better?

I think I get less fatigue. For example on my laptop, I feel like I keep hitting my fingers on hard surface and it gets tiring and they hurt a lot sooner than when I type on my Model M.

On laptops, Thinkpads have the best so far I've seen (tried Acer, HP, Macbook Pro).

With physical excretion, it is an interesting point. I just bolt modded my Model M (that means replacing some of the aging plastic rivets inside with metal bolts, which requires a complete disassembly and drilling holes and so on). And so for a while was using a generic keyboard with Cherry MX blue switches. Also clicky but a lot less resistance.

When I switched back to my fixed up Model M I noticed my fingers were weaker and it was hard to type. After a bit of time on it was back on track. I think fingers get stronger or get used to it perhaps.

But I totally don't discount this being a placebo effect. I know I am irrational about being attached to this keyboard. I just spent a large number of hours fiddling with it, ordering custom parts, and so on. If you ask me I'll probably tell you my program compile faster too when I type them on it ;-)

There is a satisfying sound to punching out code or emails on a mech switch. You stop noticing the sound but that said some colleagues who love mechs hate working with others who have them.

^This. Had Apple gone this direction instead of the OLED bar I'd be placing an order.