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Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by davesque on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:54PM (#12792046)
Unfortunately, it looks a bit like they're going with the ultra-low key travel keyboards on these new models. Very disappointed to see this. I don't understand why Apple thinks its users want this.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by reneherse on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:15PM (#12792231)
The feel of the last several generations of Apple keyboards has been all over the place, so it seems like they're continually iterating and testing. That said, I'm not sure optimizing key feel is what they're after.

Of all of them, my favorite (and my business partner's as well) is the last generation of 15" non-Retina Macbook Pro. That keyboard is a rocket ship.

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by tedmiston on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:24PM (#12792671)
I love the feel of the 15" rMBP (mine is sometime in 2013), though I don't think it's any different than earlier non-retinas, at least in key travel and size. The new low profile MacBook keyboards are almost unbearable to type on compared the nice feel of the current and Apple external keyboards.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by metafunctor on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @01:05AM (#12793999)
The current Magic Keyboard has excellent tactile feedback. Key travel is short, but not too short, and feedback is clear and crisp. The tiny arrow keys bother me a bit, because I use arrow keys a lot. Overall, I find it to be much better than the 2015 MBP with it's “butterfly” mechanism.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by kybernetyk on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @06:53AM (#12795445)
Oh, external keyboards are a very different thing as you can go over board with customizing them (myself am using an Ergo Dox).

But the built-in keyboard you can't switch. And there's situations where you can't be bothered with bringing your external KB around. So it's still important how the built in feels.

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by reneherse on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:37PM (#12793250)
The non-retina MBP keys have less sideways "wiggle", require just a touch more initial pressure to actuate, and have a slightly greater travel. Compared to my rMBP, they have a delightful tactile "crispness" and give the device a feeling of precision.

If I were a hardware guy I'd put that keyboard in its own case and use it forever :)

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by tedmiston on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:57PM (#12793329)
That sounds consistent with my experience with the older Apple Wireless Keyboard (second or third gen). I always wished they'd make one with black key caps and the backlight.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by kctess5 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:18PM (#12793191)
I have the same model, totally agree! I think 2013 15" rMBP was the pinnacle of apple laptop design.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by gkoberger on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:02PM (#12792111)
While I'm not a fan either, don't confuse "what I want" with "what users want".
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by eslaught on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:12PM (#12792208)
I buy clothes that follow fashion trends because when I go to the store there is often literally nothing else to buy, even if I don't particularly like it. I know a lot of people who behave similarly. Yes, I'm choosing to prioritize effort over preference here---the clothes might not be what I want but they're not actually bad enough to make me go to the effort to find better.

Similarly, I will likely buy the new MacBook Pro despite some elements being unnecessary or suboptimal. The laptop is important enough to me that if the keyboard were actually bad enough to outweigh the other benefits I might be incentivized to go to eBay to buy a used one. But realistically, I'll probably survive just fine with the new keyboard. It just makes the experience less "magical" than it could be. And I suspect a lot of people are in the same boat.

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by onion2k on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @03:44AM (#12794650)
I go to the store

There's more than one store.

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by eertami on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @05:32AM (#12795076)
>There's more than one store.

I mean, this is an Apple thread...

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by onion2k on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @10:26AM (#12796645)
Complaining that there are no nice keyboards when you're determined to buy an Apple laptop is like complaining that there aren't any clothes you like after you've decided to only shop at GAP. You can either shop elsewhere or put up with the limited offering.

Or use an external keyboard (for your laptop, not your clothes).

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by davesque on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:03PM (#12792125)
That's what I'm saying though. I know that other people might want this, but I have a hard time understanding how that could be true. Did anyone really ask for it?
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by rayiner on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:05PM (#12792152)
I want it! The butterfly keyboards are fantastic. If you hit a key on a corner, they don't "roll" like keyboards with more travel do. Also, they're thinner and all else being equal will allow for a bigger battery (or maintaining battery size while making the laptop thinner).
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by ant6n on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:33PM (#12793008)
What's the advantage of a laptop that's 12mm rather than 13mm?
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by redial on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @11:09PM (#12793603)
That's the thing, there is no advantage. But there certainly is an advantage going from ~24mm (original titanium powerbook) to ~13mm (macbook 12). And we only got here by reducing 1mm at a time.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by ant6n on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @08:18PM (#12801936)
As far as a clamshell laptops go, going from 13mm to 4mm doesn't sound that useful though. Especially if in order to do it, I have to sacrifice key travel.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by idlewords on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:47PM (#12793069)
1mm!
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by davesque on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:12PM (#12792203)
All true I guess. Personally, I never noticed any issues with hitting keys on the corner with the scissor-switches. It's never caused a single problem for me. On the other hand, the butterfly keys seem like they could cause RSI issues.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by rayiner on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:26PM (#12792300)
How?
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by idlewords on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:46PM (#12792454)
I bought a macbook last week and ended up having to return it over that butterfly keyboard. Usually with a new laptop, I can adjust after a couple of days, but this one killed my hands.

I worry that Apple are now pursuing thinness for thinness' sake, past the point where it makes ergonomic sense. The machine was gorgeous, but felt like a child's laptop. It's the first Apple computer I've ever returned.

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by tomcam on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:01PM (#12792537)
Been living with the MacBook keyboard for over a year. Still hate hate hate it. Unfortunately it's the only fabless Mac laptop. Sigh
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by ant6n on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:35PM (#12793017)
It has an AMD chip? ;)
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by tomcam on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @12:06AM (#12793793)
Ugh. Meant fanless. That was good though
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by ant6n on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @08:17PM (#12801926)
sorry, couldn't resist.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by valine on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:07PM (#12792169)
After trying one of their ultra thin keyboards I can't say I actually mind it. The wide keys feel great to type on, although the shallowness definitely takes some getting used to. I do the majority of my typing on a Das Keyboard Mehcanical Keyboard, so I was quite surprised with how much I enjoyed Apple's thin keys.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by ttul on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:15PM (#12792226)
I now prefer the low travel keyboard and find it weird to type on an older Mac keyboard...
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by inopinatus on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:29PM (#12792331)
I still pine for the sculpted aluminium* keys of my old 2007 MacBook Pro. These replacement squares of black plastic have never endeared themselves. For desktop use the DasKeyboard (with the blue 'clicky' keys) is probably still my top recommendation for feedback lovers, albeit in second place behind a late-'90s IBM model that is long out of production.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by serge2k on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:01PM (#12792855)
> second place behind a late-'90s IBM model that is long out of production.

You try http://www.pckeyboard.com/ ?

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by Clubber on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @11:51PM (#12793751)
I have one of those keyboards and love it, but it's too noisy when sharing a room. It can also be used as a highly effective weapon if need be.

I currently use the CODE keyboard. It's ok.

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by davesque on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:14PM (#12792222)
That's reassuring I guess. I admit I haven't put in a lot of time on a butterfly keyboard.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by beedogs on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @12:18AM (#12793844)
Apple doesn't care what its power users want anymore. They've devolved into a company that sells shiny, underpowered, overpriced trinkets to cashed-up fools.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by nodesocket on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @12:21AM (#12793860)
Enjoy your Lenovo.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by beedogs on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @12:35AM (#12793913)
I'm sure it'll be a much better experience than what Apple's got to offer these days. It's an absolute embarrassment what's happened to that company.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by nodesocket on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @12:43AM (#12793930)
Wow, compared to what manufacture do you think makes the best hardware then? Seems like you've got a personal rage with AAPL.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by beedogs on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @02:21AM (#12794302)
Seems to me you're being a bit presumptuous. I've been using Apple products since OS 7, and I've owned Apple products since 2006. So that's 10 years of brand loyalty, and thousands upon thousands of dollars in hardware purchases. I'm ready to give it all up and move back to Windows.

Apple has been heading down the wrong path with their PCs for the past few years, with underperforming, overpriced, very buggy hardware and an increasingly annoying-to-use OS X, and this is the last straw for me.

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by nodesocket on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @02:48AM (#12794420)
I'd be really curious to hear what specific buggy hardware or annoying features of OS X are an issue for you.

I'll be the first to admit, the innovation in terms of using the latest and greatest hardware and software technologies has not been there for Apple. However, this has been the case for a long time since Apple does something genius. They let other companies test new markets, built first to market products, watch them struggle, refine, and evaluate the market. Then, when the timing is just perfect, and a frenzy has been created they release a new product. Their products are like the Mercedes-Benz of cars. Sure, they aren't as fast and high performance as Ferrari or Lamborghini, but they are quality built, reliable, familiar to owners, and pleasant to drive.

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by spronkey on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @06:36AM (#12795365)
Not the OP, but personally affected by all of: 1) rMBP screengate, 2) rMBP video problem, 3) Mavericks "Service Battery", 4) MagSafe fraying, 5) 2008 MBP GPU, 6) 2007 MacBook plastic cracking.

On the software side, I seem to encounter plenty of little frustrating bugs - like not being able to remove AirDrop from the finder sidebar. Or having my windows reposition themselves every time my machine sleeps while connected to an external display. I've filed many an unanswered bug report...

I also feel like Apple's HCI has regressed quite a lot. They tweak Mission Control / Desktops / Spaces every damn release, but there are never any preferences to make it work how you want it to. Around about Mavericks it was near perfect. 10.10 made it glacially slow. 10.11 sped it up, but removed desktop previews. 10.12 has messed with the mouse gesture slowing the animation down, and rubberbanding on repeat gesture instead of closing. Wat.

Then there's stuff like the replacement of iPhoto with Photos.... yikes.

When you pair all the above with the ridiculously anti-consumer attitude Apple have toward their hardware now (it's 2016 and they are still using proprietary SSD blades, and glueing batteries?), it really pisses me off.

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by anonymoushn on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @09:25AM (#12796231)
Wow that's a lot of bad stuff! The issues I have over here are just rMBP screen burn, MagSafe fraying (probably spent $500 on this), and a ton of Spaces bugs back in like 2011. Apple addressed to my bug reports about Spaces by deleting it and making a dramatically worse but less buggy version, and now I'm using TotalSpaces which is great.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by beedogs on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @05:50AM (#12795157)
> I'd be really curious to hear what specific buggy hardware or annoying features of OS X are an issue for you.

Okay, here's the biggest of them all: audio applications no longer work reliably on new Apple hardware. Anything using a Haswell (or later) CPU has this issue. Dropouts, stuttering audio, crashes for no reason in Ableton Live and other apps. It's a common complaint, and it's the reason I actually downgraded my Macbook Pro from a late-2013 Haswell to an early-2013 non-Haswell model. The dropouts ceased. I can now record 24 bit audio without issue. I tried all manner of audio interfaces, thinking it must be a driver or third-party hardware issue. But it wasn't.

Not only that, but the USB stack has deteriorated to the point where the keyboard and trackpad of my Haswell Retina MBP routinely stop working. The Wifi chip -- also connected via USB -- drops about 15-20% of all packets sent over it. Even the Thunderbolt port was flaky, oftentimes I'd lose every externally-connected device as well as the trackpad and keyboard. Powering off was the only way to fix it.

It was even worse when I bought it, but a couple of firmware updates made it work just well enough that I didn't return it for a refund.

I don't know whether it's a problem with Apple's drivers, Intel's chipset, or some awful combination of the two. All I know is, I'm not the only one who's had these issues. The Ableton forums are rife with people with these exact issues on any relatively new hardware. People swear up and down that their older Macs perform much better than their newer ones, even with things like AppNap (a pox upon it) disabled.

I want Apple to succeed and I want to keep using their hardware, because I vastly prefer(red) OS X to Windows, but they seem to be working against me here in a big way.

I gave it my best try, I really did. They've let me down recently. It's sad.

I hope they can recover eventually.

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by no_wave on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @01:44PM (#12798671)
Apple hasn't done anything even close to genius since Steve J died.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by natch on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:07PM (#12792162)
Probably has to do with thinness. I say this without meaning to imply that thinness should override other design goals... personally I care less about it than Apple seems to.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by brendan_a_b on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:21PM (#12792272)
How can you not understand that someone would have a different preference than yours?

Personally, I much prefer the butterfly keys. The key strokes feel very crisp and clean. Switching back to my Macbook Pro the keys feel wobbly and isn't as enjoyable.

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by madeofpalk on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:35PM (#12792369)
Lots of people have trouble separating "butterfly keys" from "shallow keys". The 12" MacBook has both (IMHO, horrendously shallow keys), whereas the new standalone keyboards the butterfly keys but with more travel (and isnt as bad)
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by tedmiston on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:29PM (#12792702)
I don't even really care about butterfly vs scissor keys. It's the key travel distance that really matters to me: having some tactile feedback. The new MacBooks feel like typing against a solid board.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by eric_h on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:39PM (#12792757)
When I first got my MacBook, I agreed with you. However, when it stopped working and I switched back to my 11" air, I found the depth of the key press actually annoyingly too much
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by madeofpalk on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:20PM (#12792950)
What this tells us is that what's upsetting is the change, not that one keyboard is better than the other.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by DennisP on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @10:54PM (#12793549)
Maybe between those two keyboards, but between my MBP's built-in keyboard and my mechs with Cherry reds and browns I've found a simple objective difference: the built-in makes my finger joints sore, and the mechs don't.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by throwanem on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @06:28AM (#12795317)
Is it possible this might have something to do with style?

I use RK9000s exclusively on my desktops, and I can type all day on my MBP without pain. But I do notice that on the MBP I type differently, because key travel and activation force are so much less than the MX Blue switches I'm used to. If I used that kind of force on an MBP keyboard, with nothing really to backstop it, I'd expect to get sore pretty fast, just as I would if I used the same kind of force on MX Blues that I'd need to activate the switches on one of my old Model M finger-breakers.

Typing comfortably on an MBP I think needs a somewhat different approach. It feels less like typing than like drumming my fingers on a table, which never quite all the way stops being weird. But it works, and as I said, I can do it all day without getting sore. Perhaps you can, too!

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by tedmiston on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:39PM (#12793255)
Maybe it's just personal preference. I also had (still have) the 11" Air ~2011 before this rMBP and I still prefer the rMBP keyboard.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by davesque on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @03:35AM (#12794611)
Unfortunately, I did try the Magic Keyboard and was really turned off by it compared with my rMBP 15" keyboard.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by tspike on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @12:44AM (#12793931)
I get shooting, crippling finger pain when there's too little travel after too much typing. Definitely not just a preference.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by satysin on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:25PM (#12792293)
I hated having to use the new MacBook. It felt like I was using a BlackBerry keyboard.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by davesque on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @03:26AM (#12794572)
If there is at least one person who has a preference different than mine, that doesn't mean I have no right to wonder if there are really enough people asking for thinner laptops/less key travel to justify this design decision.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by empath75 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:09PM (#12792181)
What people do want is very thin, light laptops, though.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by brians on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:43PM (#12792423)
Light, yes, because every g of space is another g I can carry. But I don't know anyone who's constrained on compressible volume when traveling. (he says with a 3 day trip packed into the Brain Bag beside him)
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by awinder on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:27PM (#12792307)
Has apple ever really tested this though, because there's enough going on in each iteration that it'd be very hard to scientifically gauge the effects of singular decisions or changes. Maybe they're chasing diminishing returns at this point, maybe there are sacred things that you can't go after. Or maybe none of it really matters and people are buying for reasons unrelated to dropping case size by .1" or .3 lbs
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by troupe on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:58PM (#12793128)
Many airlines let you use a laptop during take off an landing if it is less than 2 pounds.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by davesque on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @03:20AM (#12794549)
That's kinda funny if true because I can't imagine that weight is really a reliable indicator of how much radio interference a laptop puts out.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by BillinghamJ on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @04:24AM (#12794814)
It's not about interference - it's about how bad a projectile the object would be. Below 2 pounds, the idea is that it wouldn't do too much damage.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by troupe on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @11:38AM (#12797345)
The 2 pound limit is because that is the amount the FAA has determined is safe to keep in the seat back pocket in addition to the stuff that is already in there. The idea is that if there is turbulence you'd put it in the pocket.

If radio interference actually was a threat, there is no way they would let every passenger take a phone on the plane.

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by awinder on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @10:12AM (#12796560)
Do they come around with scales to make sure a laptop is 2lbs vs 3?
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by malft on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:01PM (#12792103)
Secure payments? If you hook up a display to the secure enclave, suddenly it's really expensive for malware to steal your money.

(Sorry, replied to the wrong comment and apparently can't delete now?)

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by davesque on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:02PM (#12792114)
I don't understand how key-travel distance has anything to do with secure payments.

Edit: Parent replied to wrong comment it seems.

Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by corndoge on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:03PM (#12792116)
How does your comment have anything to do with key travel?
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by mconzen on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:34PM (#12792740)
I think the low travel keys will fit much better with the touch function key bar. Hitting flat glass will probably feel less jarring than with the current Macbook keyboards.
Re:Images of New MacBook Pro with Magic Toolbar Leaked in Ma... by ClassyJacket on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:37PM (#12792390)
I want it. Why have travel I don't need slowing down my typing?