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Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by artursapek on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:19PM (#12784431)
I've always sort of had this question that continues to feel naive - but I'm not sure I know the answer: why do so many companies feel like they have to grow perpetually? Why can't Twitter just be happy being Twitter, knowing its limits and making a stable profit? Instead it's more users, more VC money, more staff... constantly burning as quickly as possible. There's a ceiling on every business; it's all bound to come crashing down eventually if you don't stop somewhere. Either you do it gracefully or hundreds of folks have to eventually lose their job unexpectedly (very sad).

Is the answer simply that earlier VCs put pressure on the executives to keep growing so they can multiply their investment?

Personally I dream of making a living establishing a patio11-type software business. Something where I can do a high quality job and own all of the decision-making. The ceiling doesn't have to be very high for one guy to sustain himself, and software is appealing because you can automate away nearly all of the "work".

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by Analemma_ on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:27PM (#12784478)
People have answered this before, and what it boils down to is: because they took VC money, and then went public. If you bootstrap a business from nothing and grow it on its own, then sustainable growth and stable profit is fine. But Twitter got VC and IPO money with a promise that it would have Facebook-like growth in return. I think the analogy I saw used was that they promised investors a Porsche and instead delivered a Toyota Corolla- it might be solid and reliable, and perfectly fit for purpose, but it's not what they promised when they took that money.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by AtheistOfFail on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:25PM (#12784783)
The issue is one simple item: "When you take someone's money, their priorities are now your priorities"

If you can bootstrap your business with 30k and make a 20k profit every month, then why do you need 1 million dollars from investors?

When you take the money, it's just a golden handcuff and ties you to that person for the future. If your business lasts longer than 20 years, that may as well be an additional marriage with kids.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by aub3bhat on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:38PM (#12784846)
Because your competitor can raise those million dollars, and eventually your 20k profit per month becomes 20k loss per month.

You can build all your imaginary arguments about magical businesses that make 20k profit per month while being self-sustained with holocracy, cruelty free, authentic, organic etc. etc. But the reality is that doing big things at bigger scale requires huge capital. If you are willing to pass up on it, someone else will take it and gladly outspend / outmaneuver your. You will watch as your paid product will lose to a freemium one, and as you will write "our incredible journey blogpost", commenters here will mock you for selling out / giving up.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by danieltillett on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:10PM (#12784970)
I run a bootstrapped SAAS business and I make far more than $20K a month profit and have done so for years. The key is choose a niche that is large enough to make the level of profit you want, but too small to attract VC funded competitors. The sort of market size you want is in the range of $5 to $20 million per year. Big enough to be worth the hassle, but too small to attract the big guys.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by lmeyerov on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:50AM (#12785373)
This reasoning feels safe for services, and risky for software:

* Big companies start small. VCs will tell startups to find something their tech can make them the best at and grow into nearby verticals.

* Software goes to zero. Academia, side projects, whatever. Either you keep up, and reach some sort of scale that you have a moat, or your risk goes up.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by danieltillett on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:07AM (#12785443)
You do have to keep working on the business and innovating. It is not a route to passive income (well not until you retire), but it a very satisfying way to build a business and lifestyle.

The downside is the parties aren’t as good :(

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by woah on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:26AM (#12787726)
Unfortunately for Twitter, social networking is not that niche.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by edoceo on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:23AM (#12785512)
Similar story, we should be friends :)

Care to comment on the work/life balance you have?

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by danieltillett on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:42AM (#12785576)
Well I work hard, but I live a very good life. I enjoy my work (well most of it as I am not too keen on accounting and taxes). I get to work and live in a very nice (if expensive) part of the world so I have nothing to complain about.

I can say it took me a long time to get to where I am now and I had quite a few detours along the way. I wrote up the history of my business a while back if anyone is interested [1]. Bootstrapping is certainly not the way to instant riches :)

1. https://www.tillett.info/2015/06/24/why-i-kept-my-startup-in...

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by deoxy on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:02AM (#12786825)
Interesting post. As a fellow Australian (actually, fellow computer programming molecular bio BSc who went to La Trobe), I completely agree with your assessment on the Australian startup scene.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by dba7dba on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:24AM (#12786156)
Lol

Not enough angels but lots of devils..

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by sundvor on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:06AM (#12785866)
Thanks for posting that; great work on persevering!
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by pud on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:35AM (#12785777)
Me too. Hi.

If an entrepreneur is worried about "Work Life Balance", I think he/she is in the wrong business.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by skrebbel on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:05AM (#12785862)
I see this meme repeated a lot here on HN. Personally I wildly disagree, as I believe sufficient time away from work makes you make the right decisions. Basically I believe that the "work smarter, not harder" meme, while cliché, automatically happens if you invest time in leisure and sleep.

But I don't know! I truly wonder how many businesses have been run into the ground because of a kamikaze attitude to working hours. But I also wonder how many businesses missed gigantic opportunities while the founders were off doing unimportant things like putting their kids to bed. Neither are measurable, as far as I can see.

If anyone has any stats on this, any at all, consider me recommended!

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by WA on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:02AM (#12786063)
I think you've got this wrong: the big opportunity here is for founders to be able to put their kids to bed. Fuck the money and so-called business opportunities, if you already have enough to do what you want every day.

Stats don't even matter, because at that level of financial independence, it's a personal choice whether you spend time with your family or pursue another business opportunity.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by edoceo on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:01PM (#12789570)
Yep!
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by walshemj on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:01AM (#12787550)
I recall when I was in charge of a small billing system for a uk telco. One mothly billing run when I got to 36 hours with out sleep and starting to see things - that I should stop and got bed and come into the office later the next day.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by Zelmor on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:05AM (#12786076)
I say one should always go for the sustainable path.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by vog on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:52AM (#12785828)
Why this? Burnt-out entrepreneurs are failed entrepreneurs, aren't they?

There's always a limit on how much time you can spend per day, and this limit is far below the time you are awake. Push it too far, and you do not only lose your working power, but also your motivation and your inspiration.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by pud on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:59AM (#12785845)
When an entrepreneur is excited about a thing she's building, the truthful answer to "how many hours per day do you work" is typically "zero or twenty-four, depending on what you consider work."

I agree entrepreneurs can get burnt out, but at that point it's become a "job" and is probably time to move on.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by saiya-jin on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:39AM (#12786240)
you are incorrect in assumption that burnout can happen only once you lose passion for your work. one of endless examples in history - look up medical volunteers during WWI - passionate for saving lives all the time, yet burnout happened to many of those.

there are limits to stress your body can sustain, and your mind can be totally disconnected with it, pushing and pushing.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by vog on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:27AM (#12786478)
> you are incorrect in assumption that burnout can happen only once you lose passion for your work

The assumption is not only incorrect, but I believe it is exactly reverse: Losing passing is one of the consequences of a burn-out. It is not a cause, but instead one of the (most visible) symptoms.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by vog on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:33PM (#12789857)
To those who downvoted this: Do you care to explain why you don't think that burn-out leads to losing passion?
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by Scarblac on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:34AM (#12786504)
One can be passionate about multiple things at the same time.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by ethbro on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:03AM (#12786605)
> If an entrepreneur is worried about "Work Life Balance", I think he/she is in the wrong business.

If your only business advantage over your competitors is a willingness to sacrifice your life for money, then you'd better either be okay with doing so indefinitely or be making enough money you can call it quits before you're too old to maintain that pace.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by rebeccaskinner on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:02AM (#12786821)
I think the more critical you are to the business, and the more pressure and responsibilities you have, the more critical it is to worry about work/life balance. People aren't robots, and we don't have infinite capacity to work, our ability to make rational decisions, understand the market, customers, employees, think critically, etc. is all dependent on having a healthy working brain- and that requires rest and recreation.

For founders, and really anyone heavily invested in early stage startups or companies looking for a lot of growth, responsibilities are 24/7 and the line between work and life get blurry, and it's a lot more difficult to make sure the balance is there, but also a lot more important.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by CardenB on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:28PM (#12785052)
What's your point? Twitter isn't in that niche, obviously.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by frankydp on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:59PM (#12785177)
I would suggest that Twitter is a niche. It is in a brand management and customer engagement niche, and without some giant platform change, I think that trying to profit by increasing the number of eyeballs is always going to be challenging to the bottom line if the business value does not dramatically increase. The noise in twitters ecosystem from all those users, while interesting and good for research data sets, will eventually be a counter business/profit feature. The value proposition for users, in my mind, has been access and audience, but the value should have been focused on authoritative sourcing and customer recovery/engagement as soon as they took outside investment.

Not disagreeing or anything your comment just brought this to mind.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by aub3bhat on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:25AM (#12786681)
Twitter a billion dollar company, a social network used by presidential candidates and tens of millions of people is a niche?? Do you understand the dictionary meaning of the term "niche" if anything Twitter is opposite of it.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by gaius on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:52AM (#12786780)
The entirety of Twitter is a subset of one feature of Facebook - that's why its referred to as niche.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by optimuspaul on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @11:19AM (#12788671)
features don't make it niche, user base does and twitters user base is anything but niche, it's potentially the connected whole world.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by frankydp on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @10:26AM (#12788242)
Niche: the situation in which a business's products or services can succeed by being sold to a particular kind or group of people

or a specialized market

Size is not necessarily a function of the word niche it only implies that the good or service being sold targets a group that is not a majority of all of the market participants. In twitters case 3.4B users on the internet, with only some subgroup that participates on social media and then only a subgroup of that group that wishes to participate with limited post length and then, business wise, just the business niche that have a large customer base within that subgroup of internet/social media/short form.

As an example BMW is a niche business, luxury auto, that had 92B in revenue last year.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by optimuspaul on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @11:18AM (#12788661)
totally agree. Twitter may have a limited set of features which may make it seem "niche", but it's market is basically everyone.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by wcummings on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @11:18AM (#12788663)
Twitter's niche is media types, for sure.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by rndgermandude on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:12AM (#12785478)
Twitter is a niche in my humble opinion. They are basically a short messaging pubsub service for humans, and even artificially limited themselves to that niche, by not increasing message size limits in any obvious way, by not implementing other "social" features people actually use like better photo sharing, galleries and gallery sharing, games, etc. They didn't try to become a full-fledged social network and thus competitor to Facebook (and what Google+ was supposed to be) with messaging and a ton of other stuff.

Even that One Big New Thing they announced, namely Moments, still operated exclusively in that short messaging pubsub niche entirely (and turned out not to be something their users cared about that much so far).

Now their niche market seems kind of saturated, user numbers mostly peaked, and Facebook also started competing even more in that niche when they introduced searchable #hashtags and ways to follow accounts without becoming mutual friends, while still offering their other core features and "external" services like instagram (in direct competition to twitter) or whatsapp (in direct competition to twitter DMs). Tumblr is still there, which to me always felt mostly like a "twitter" for longer-form messages. I saw people switch from twitter to Slack (and recently Discord) and embrace their not-globally-visible pubsub models in some cases, so there is some competition there too.

So in conclusion: twitter seems to me like a pretty niche service (albeit large niche), and has competitors left and right now. It isn't in "that" niche, but in a niche.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by danieltillett on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:01AM (#12785418)
I was just responding to the parent post who suggested that you can’t bootstrap because some better funded company will come along and put you out of business. You can if you choose the right niche.

Of course Twitter as a business did not have this choice - they had to go big or go home. For the founders though it might have been better to have built something else.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by simonswords82 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:26AM (#12785921)
> For the founders though it might have been better to have built something else.

I doubt it. All of the founders are mega wealthy now both as a result of Twitter and other ventures. Twitter might not have reached the dizzy heights they aspired to, but like it or loathe it Twitter is a household name and the founders are "famous".

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by wslh on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:11AM (#12787626)
You are right but the problem is finding that niche, so it is a business exploratory issue. Also, $ 20k is low if you need to growth your business, even, a little bit (e.g. hire people).
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by thr0waway1239 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:54AM (#12787960)
Its 20K a month in profit, not 20K a year. If you genuinely think it is hard to hire people at that point (not suggesting the GP should), then you have probably not explored all your options.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by wslh on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @10:00AM (#12788029)
> If you genuinely think it is hard to hire people at that point...

Where? In US, SV, New York, China, Ukraine, Argentina? If you growth it can be difficult to scale without having higher profits or outside investments.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by meddlepal on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:21PM (#12785031)
This. There is always a niche. Some people just don't want to use the other offerings for XYZ reasons.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by trevelyan on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:57AM (#12786040)
This is a bitter comment, but it's so very true. The only thing I disagree with is the assumption that this is just a problem for companies that want to scale or - as someone commented down below - businesses that are "only" worth a few million a year and are presumably too small to attract VC attention....

Because maybe that holds for B2B businesses where no-one outside of the industry knows you exist, but for any B2C startup the reality is that there are a ton of people with connections and stupid money (or pre-funded teams looking to "pivot") that will throw lots of resources into competing with you. These teams tend towards self-delusion (over-estimating market size, pretending that it is a world-changing product, imagining it as a stepping-stone to world domination) because this is necessary for them to raise capital.

Lots of people romanticise lifestyle businesses, but it is miserable competing against funded businesses when your competitors have free money. I have done it twice and one of the worst feelings you can have as a founder is when you've spent a year building a business and your customers start complaining because your service is more expensive than your funded competition. It is psychologically taxing.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by k__ on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:50AM (#12786292)
> This is a bitter comment, but it's so very true.

Only partly.

I mean, yes if you get competition you have to get a huge amount of money from somewhere, but the later you do it, the more money you get for much lesser 'cruel' VC wishes.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by throwaway761hh on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:10AM (#12785462)
I own a business that grew 10% per year for quite some time, making way more than 20k per month in profit for many years.

I am sure the VC and growth path can be good for some, but if you think this is the only realistic way to make decent money, you drink too much the VC kool-aid.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by fuqted on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:20PM (#12785028)
No imagination necessary, check out Basecamp. I believe they've actually cut their freemium offering recently.

Slack hasn't put them out of business yet.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by Xylakant on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:58AM (#12787521)
Slack and Basecamp are fundamentally different tools. I use both on a daily basis and they are not interchangeable. I also can't remember a freemium model on basecamp either - it's been a paid service ever since. They did change their pricing structure when moving to BC3, so now it's mostly flat and not tiered by team size and resource consumption.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by fuqted on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:37PM (#12789359)
Read the parents. Twitter and other social media are fundamentally different; most product businesses are going to give a different offering. The guy is saying that competition in the space will steal eat your lunch for you if you don't take investor money, and that's just not true.

I wasn't aware about the details with the pricing of Basecamp. I just knew it changed recently and that it wasn't freemium. The point I was making with that still stands.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by vtlynch on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:51PM (#12784899)
This is simply not true. Perhaps its significantly more true for certain industries - especially Saas and similar software. But even then it is no rule.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by thenomad on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:55AM (#12786582)
Nothing lasts forever.

Having said that, the number of bootstrapped / angel-funded companies sitting there cheerfully producing a large-enough-to-be-useful profit for years on end is pretty huge. Others have given examples in other replies to this comment, but I just wanted to point out - they're not outliers, they're a trend.

The claim that the model doesn't work is rather easily falsified.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by edoceo on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:25AM (#12785520)
What if that competitor buys you to grab your market share?

Or, who funds the freemium one? Investors who push that company too far too fast, so your paid model could outlast another flash in the pan.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by aub3bhat on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:27AM (#12786686)
"Markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent"
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by makomk on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:08AM (#12786395)
Then the investors will get tired of subsidising the other company, it will get more and more user-hostile and quite possibly run out of money altogether and shut down, and users will be worse off in the long run.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by aub3bhat on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:18AM (#12786654)
Oh yeah and eventually Diaspora will overtake Facebook. Oh wait...

If the VC model did not work it would have simply gone out of business. The reality of business is that doing things at larger scale requires capital. Sure you might be able to pull-off your lifestyle, but its going to be hard to motivate employees when the VC funded competitor gives them michelin star chefs, 50% higher salaries and a shot at windfall in few years. Sure twitter might be laying off few employees now. But before that it made its founders billionaires and several employees millionaires.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by cabinguy on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @10:33AM (#12788309)
The VC model works best for the VCs. Sure, a few entrepreneurs win too, but the model expects way more failures than homeruns. And that's if you get to the place where you're deemed worthy of their capital.

I'm part of that successful bootstrapped crowd (way more than $20k/mo profit). I'm not a billionaire but my lifestyle is pretty amazing. Bootstrapping is a legitimate way to grow a real business.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by forgetsusername on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:40AM (#12786733)
But before that it made its founders billionaires and several employees millionaires.

Without ever earning a penny in profit for its shareholders. What a system!

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by bandrami on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:05AM (#12787571)
If the VC model did not work it would have simply gone out of business.

It has, on a macro scale, three times now. On a micro scale, it does every day, but there is always some new money who is sure they can get it right this time.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by emodendroket on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @10:29AM (#12788274)
That's not necessarily true. I don't see how a microblogging service could be bigger than Twitter is.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by Angostura on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:49AM (#12786014)
I was at a startup in the UK before the first dotcom bust and we took VC money. It was extraordinary. A key metric that the VCs seemed to be interested in was head-count. We had this system that effectively acted as a trading exchange and I was sitting there saying 'hang on guys, with a little bit of work, this can pretty much be automated and you can sit back and watch the money roll in' but there was tremendous pressure to keep hiring people to demonstrate growth. I was not very young - but clearly naive.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by TylerH on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:28PM (#12790308)
Measuring company growth by number of people employed is a clear indicator of why the dotcom bust was a bust.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by laluser on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:33PM (#12784518)
Are they liable for those promises though? I am legitimately curious to know if they are contractually obligated to grow at a certain rate or be at certain valuation at this point in time.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by hibikir on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:47PM (#12784600)
Companies stop growing all the time: it happens all the time, and no company grows forever. A stock price is not just the value of a company's business today: It has future growth and risk priced in. What the stock market has been saying to Twitter is that the public believes that Twitter's ceiling is far lower than we thought in 2014.

In practice, this says that all the bets on hypergrowth were wrong, and the company must adapt: The stock grants that looked competitive before don't look competitive today, so top engineers leave. Staffing plans designed to keep a system operable at 10x of Twitter's current volume stop making sense, so projects change, and people are laid off.

So this has nothing to do with liability to promises (they've already IPO'd), but with the pain of becoming a less promising company. Twitter is too important to disappear in the near term; all you have to do is look at how big they are for journalists and presidential candidates to figure that out. There is, however, an opportunity for someone to make a competing product that fits the same needs and is easier to monetize.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by kmonsen on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:13PM (#12784717)
If they are staying stable, do they really need those top engineers? The probably need a different set of engineers who can find a cheaper way of doing what they are already doing.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by yeukhon on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:44AM (#12785351)
Staying stable finanically is okay, but staying stable and no optimization (better algorithms) might hurt. Hiring good engineers is surprisingly expensive and hard.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by throwthisawayt on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:23PM (#12784773)
They are liable in the sense that they report to a board chosen by their investors. So if I bought or invested in company XYZ at a valuation that assumed a lot of growth and company XYZ suddenly stopped pursuing that growth I would probably vote out current management. So yes most companies are beholden to investors; don't raise money if you don't want a new boss.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by criddell on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @11:23AM (#12788719)
> I would probably vote out current management

That presumes that you think new management could successfully grow the company. Twitter's growth might be done.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by Analemma_ on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:43PM (#12784572)
I don't know that they're "liable" in the sense that people could win a shareholder suit- the bar for those is set pretty high and I doubt Twitter would qualify. My comment was more in response to the accusations that the market is somehow being "unfair" for "punishing" Twitter's lack of continued growth. They're only punishing Twitter for failing to meet the expectations Twitter itself set.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by harryh on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:44PM (#12784585)
Even the word punishing is really too strong. The stock market isn't making a moral judgement. It's merely an estimate of the value of the company. As twitter's growth prospects decrease the value of the company goes down.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by tossaway1 on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:49PM (#12784609)
That's what "punishing" means when people use it in the context of stock prices.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by harryh on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:50PM (#12784619)
Ya I know. I just don't like it because of the moral context that normally comes with that word. I hear you though.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by ryanSrich on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:44PM (#12784581)
Well yeah. "They" would be fired, and new leadership would be brought in to do better. When you're reporting to the board or shareholders they run the show. And they want more money.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by mdasen on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:59PM (#12784929)
They are not contractually obligated to grow at a certain rate.

However, if the majority of your shareholders are members of the public looking to earn a return, they're your boss. You might be CEO, but if your priorities aren't their priorities, they'll replace you. Even if you own the majority voting control in the company, there's a certain amount of good-faith effort you need to put into growing the profits of the company. In most jurisdictions, a public for-profit company is organized with the belief that the company exists to create as much profit as it reasonably can and shouldn't be operating in a way that avoids that. That doesn't mean doing scummy things or things that might realize short-term profits at the expense of the brand, but sometimes it becomes clear that a company is no longer operating with its (potentially minority) shareholders in mind.

There's actually a type of corporation that specifically notes that maximizing profit isn't the goal of the enterprise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_corporation). Twitter could have been formed as a B-Corporation and told its investors that it might make profit, but that profit wasn't its only goal.

But the thing is that Twitter isn't just making too little money. It's losing money. It would be like a coffeeshop that sold coffee for 10¢ a cup with 50,000 customers/mo and rent of $8,000/mo. They'd bring in $5,000 from their customers and be $3,000 in the hole at the end of the month. Now, there are a few ways to change that situation. 1) Get more money per customer. Twitter could sell more or better ads or you could give them money. That's hard. 2) Get more users. If Twitter earns $X/user/month in revenue and they're able to get double the number of users, that's double the revenue. If costs don't go up linearly with users, their situation will get better. If the coffeeshop gets 100,000 customers/mo, they'd be making $2,000/mo. 3) Twitter can lower costs. They can fire excess employees working on marginal projects; they can get rid of app features that might be computationally expensive to deliver.

The issue with many startups isn't always growth or investors, but even keeping one's head above water.

Now, even if Twitter can keep its head above water, is that enough? If Twitter became a non-profit and just advertised itself as a public service to the world, would that be enough to keep users around? So many companies are gunning to take down Twitter. Would Twitter survive if it slimmed down its staff and just kept Twitter alive? Would users migrate to other services that offered new, cool things?

I feel like Wikipedia is the only really high-traffic non-profit, but they're doing something that requires a lot less engineering (ie. most of the page can be easily cached and is the same for all users vs. Twitter).

The thing is that it's hard to bootstrap services with huge network effects like Facebook or Twitter and keep a small staff. It's often a winner-take-all (or most) market. Remember Pownce? Probably not. There were lots of microblogging companies and Twitter destroyed them all. To do that, they needed to staff-up as you handle scaling issues and add features. Once you're big, you want to keep focusing on growth since layoffs are demoralizing and if you stop growing, what's to stop a new company from coming along and knocking you off?

It's easy to think that Twitter could be run with less of an eye for growth or profit, but given that it's losing money right now and that can't continue forever, it at least needs to get to a head-above-water place. The most promising ways of getting there are things like getting more users, cutting costs like staff, and figuring out how to get more revenue per current user. In fact, one could argue that the layoffs are part of Twitter not prizing growth above all else. They're trading growth (that could be driven by those employees) for cost (the salaries of those employees). Twitter is going the route of the less-growth, slimmed-down company looking to just keep chugging along. But even then, Twitter needs to get its head above water and this is kinda part of that (unfortunately).

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by WA on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:35AM (#12786215)
Insightful post, thank you.

I feel like Wikipedia is the only really high-traffic non-profit, but they're doing something that requires a lot less engineering (ie. most of the page can be easily cached and is the same for all users vs. Twitter).

WhatsApp comes to mind as an example of complex engineering (storing and delivering messages for millions) and they pulled it off with a small team at first. And more: once the core product is established/engineered, do you need as many people to maintain it?

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by user5994461 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:30AM (#12786707)
WhatsApp is a simple, single purpose app.

It's not a complex engineering problem at all. Maybe it could be if it were done in the year 2000. It is not nowadays.

[Granted, there is still work to be done to make a decent product, they had great people and they executed very well.]

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by majewsky on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:57PM (#12790614)
And isn't Twitter a simple, single-purpose app, too? (At least before they purchased Vine and Periscope.)
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by user5994461 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:26PM (#12792679)
Twitter and Wikipedia were created more than 10 years ago. It was way more challenging at the time.

Just think about the infrastructure for example. There was no SoftLayer/AWS to save your ass. You had to handle servers/hardware on your own. That alone could use a (small) company.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by harryh on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:36PM (#12784540)
Who does "they" refer to in your sentence? Twitter management? If so, then it's not about a contract but about what the owners of the company (the shareholders) have hired them to do.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by jamesroseman on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:46PM (#12784591)
It's murky, and depends entirely on how concretely they made those promises. To me, common sense should dictate no, but to others, it might [1].

(Story covers lawsuit against Twitter for misleading shareholders on user growth numbers).

[1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-17/twitter-su...

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by iampims on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:32PM (#12784813)
They aren't liable for the "S-1 promises" as long as they clearly mentioned the risks in the appropriate section.

Their main responsibility at this point is to satisfy the shareholders, and given their limited growth is not an easy feat.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by ThomPete on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:14PM (#12784996)
It's bigger than that though. The real issue is that they don't have a choice because as long as they aren't profitable they need to find a way to fund the operation.

In many ways VC funding is the worst and shouldn't be applied to most companies.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by branchless on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:49PM (#12784888)
And what should also concern people about this is that our entire issuance of money as debt demands constant growth ahead of interest rates. Or you can have a time where you continually cut rates, print and call it growth, until you get to zero and it all falls apart.

I'm not sure either are a good outcome from a bad idea.

I'll also put my other question in this post seeing as I have tripped the HN rentier alerts by using words that may upset our parasitic rentier VC gods, leading to the weasel "you're submitting too fast" after one post.

What is patio-11 ?

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by viraptor on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:58AM (#12785405)
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by Buge on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:37PM (#12784838)
But if they IPO, then the early investors already got their money back. And startups get acquired all the time, also putting an end to investors' growth.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by beedogs on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:53AM (#12785386)
Well then they're pretty much doomed to failure. There's only so much blood you can squeeze out of a 140-character stone.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by potel576 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:59AM (#12788019)
What I find ironic about this is that if they actually tried to be a Toyota Corolla, they might have given off the perception of being a Porsche. Even if they didn't give off the perception, they would have at least put money in shareholders' pockets.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by mxuribe on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:36PM (#12784533)
Not everyone is like a cannonball wanting to burn so hot as to melt themselves. I would also like a patio-11 type of software business; so you're not alone!

As far as twitter, they unfortunately took a bite of "poison apple" of public investment, and as such are beholden to investors, so must perform (and grow) to ever more higher levels. What would happen - i wonder - if twitter became private again, or better yet some sort of non-profit? What if their platform somehow became the genesis of the new, decentralized web somehow...In other words "phoenix" their way out of this mess by literally -reinventing themselves...If by "reinventing themselves", it might be really more of a major tweak to their operation mode. If twitter - the protocol - as opposed to twitter - the ad/communication platform - reinvented itself in that way, i think i might consider going back and using it; that is, if I'm able to retain control of my own content. Until then, I'll stick with matrix.org (specifically riot.im).

[http://matrix.org/] [https://riot.im/]

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by scottkduncan on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:34PM (#12784827)
I'm not sure they vision you're describing is the direction private equity would take it, but with the major tech buyers shying away it does seem like a private exit is the most likely way this ends.

John Hempton summed up this view well: http://brontecapital.blogspot.com/2016/10/some-comment-on-tw...

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by branchless on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:52PM (#12784900)
what is patio11 ! Is it this guy? http://www.kalzumeus.com/?
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by wsc981 on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:30PM (#12785059)
Yes, he started his business with Bingo Card Creator (IIRC). He wrote some interesting blog posts on his business. His HN handle is patio11.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by branchless on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:51AM (#12787942)
I see. Thanks for demystifying the folk-lore.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by gozur88 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:15AM (#12785240)
>Why can't Twitter just be happy being Twitter, knowing its limits and making a stable profit?

The short answer? Because they don't make money.

I guess it's possible you could grow your company to a point where you say "Okay, we've filled our niche. Growing more doesn't make sense, so we'll just extract as much cash as we can."

The problem is you have to make money to do that. Twitter doesn't make money and never has. They can say "Well, we're still growing, and that costs money, but at some point we'll monetize that growth and make tons of money," but it's only credible as long as they're growing.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by enraged_camel on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:33AM (#12785767)
I think they have good revenue, but their insanely high expenses (coming mostly from the high number of employees, but probably other things that assume hyper growth too) make it impossible to turn a good profit.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by dbbk on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @05:52AM (#12795172)
They have just under 4,000 employees and spent $2.7 billion last year. Surely that can't be just it?
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by artursapek on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:12PM (#12789679)
I think if Twitter settled down and optimized they could probably be making a healthy profit. That's sort of what I was getting at in my OP.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by gozur88 on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @06:05AM (#12795213)
I doubt they can do it. We'll see.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by koliber on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:05AM (#12786612)
On a longer timeframe, if you don't grow, you die.

Scenario time...

Let's say I have a company that is growing pretty well. After some time, I feel the easy growth stops. Let's say this is the "right size" point you are alluding to, and I was able to recognize it, spot on. I stop hiring and just work with the existing resources that I have. In theory everything should be good for a long time.

Unfortunately, I do not exist in a vacuum. I have competition, and this competition continues to expand. Eventually, if they continue to invest and grow, even past their "right size", they will take away my market share. As they grow stronger, I will grow weaker. This may cause my company to lose enough sales that I will have to fire people.

The fallacy is that there is a "right size" that will continue to be the "right size" through time. A market is a dynamic system that does not stand still. What was the right size at one point, may be too large or too small in the future, due to things beyond my direct control.

As a smart businessman, I have to understand this. I have to expand when there is room, and try to outperform the competition when the market is crowded. I need to downsize when the time is right to protect the rest of the business.

What you are saying is easier done on a smaller scale. There are many so-called "lifestyle" businesses which live by a philosophy that is closer to yours and farther from Twitter's. On a global scale, it much more difficult to follow the "lifestyle" business philosophy and succeed.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by B1FF_PSUVM on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:23AM (#12786673)
> I have competition, and this competition continues to expand.

Fallacy is here.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by jamesroseman on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:29PM (#12784488)
I think the answer is that when Twitter IPO'd there were very clear expectations for the company to perform similar to its perceived contemporaries: Facebook and Google. If you look at the perpetually meteoric rise of GOOGL or FB, it's understandable why shareholders are disappointed -- Twitter burns a lot of capital.

So, if its growth has petered out and this is as much money as it can produce, it's understandable to me the line of thinking would then be to cut costs as much as possible so the profit margin can grow. 4k people makes sense when your company is adding value every day, but to these shareholders those aren't translating into results.

My $0.02 -- thoughts?

> Personally I dream of making a living establishing a patio11-type software business. Something where I can do a high quality job and own all of the decision-making.

I have that dream too, but when I have it I always wonder if given that situation I'd be able to stop myself from wanting my baby to keep growing, even if it meant giving up those decision-making abilities and taking on investors.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by chrissnell on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:17PM (#12784742)
In 1994, I registered bikeworld.com and helped my dad put his local bicycle store chain online. It was wild from day one. We didn't even have a proper shopping cart for the first few months--you had to fax or email your order and credit card--but the orders just came in. I was fresh out of the early days of Silicon Valley dotcom startups and I begged my dad to let us take some VC money and go big with this thing. I wanted to do a printed catalog (all the big players did one at this time) and hire some marketing people and front end designers.

Dad wouldn't have it. He had run this successful brick and mortar business since 1971 and there was just no way that he was going to trade away ownership for cash to get growth that he didn't want. The stores afforded him amonthly draw that supported him and paid for a nice house and the freedom to pursue his hobbies. He was in his early fifties and all of the tough years taught him to recognize the good thing he had.

It was a great lesson for me and his experience as a businessman is a big part of the reason why I never pursued entrepreneurship myself, opting instead for the stable life of a salaryman.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by jldugger on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:46PM (#12784872)
> Why can't Twitter just be happy being Twitter, knowing its limits and making a stable profit

Your assumption, that Twitter is profitable, is unfortunately wrong.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by trymas on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:17PM (#12785012)
It is not, but it could if twitter would stop spending huge piles of money that makes them go nowhere.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by nikcub on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:06AM (#12785438)
That is exactly what many on Wall St have been telling them to do for years. Despite the popular perception of investment bankers, they do value "patio11 style businesses" more highly than the Twitter style of spending and losing billions of dollars and not going anywhere.

I actually don't think anybody values the later.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by kgwgk on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:58AM (#12785840)
"Investment bankers" do absolutely love companies that raise money (and the faster they burn it the better, so they come back to raise more).
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by drakonandor on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @11:27AM (#12788757)
Their revenue almost doubled from 2014 to 2015, and is on track to be a bit higher than 2015. It's silly to pretend they're just burning money for fun.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by Ryan_Shmotkin on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:14AM (#12786632)
The answer is in your example. Patio's business was barely profitable for a few years until closing down.

Growth or death is true for most businesses, just need to decide on the growth acceleration

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by napoleond on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:40AM (#12787837)
> barely profitable

Patrick wrote "year in review" posts going back to 2006, and they include full numbers, so you can see for yourself. Profit margins in 2014 (the most recent review) were at a whopping 60% across all his businesses. (See here: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/12/22/kalzumeus-software-year-...)

> closing down

He sold his SaaS businesses, and they are operated by other people. Here's a podcast episode about it: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2016/08/26/kalzumeus-podcast-episod...

They are still in operation, and presumably still profitable:

https://www.appointmentreminder.org/

https://www.bingocardcreator.com/

> Growth or death

Not really. Moving past patio11 as an example, just look at local businesses in your community. The ones that have been there the longest (> 50 years) have undoubtedly gone through periods of both growth and decline (I don't mean decline toward death, I mean decline for a bit and then start growing again). Many of the ones that have been there for about 20 years will have reached a sort of "asymptote" of growth--they would have grown for the first 10 or 15 years and then stabilized around a size that feels "comfortable". There are many more businesses in the world than just start-ups and public companies.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by forgetsusername on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @11:41AM (#12788858)
>whopping 60% across all his businesses

Software built by 1 person will always have good margins. According to his numbers, BCC was making $60k in good years. 60% of that is $36k, which is a fraction of what a solid Dev can make (and an even smaller fraction of what he patio11 was making consulting). Clever side project income for sure, but not a staggering work of business genius.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by napoleond on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:35PM (#12790382)
Sure, and I suppose "barely profitable" could be interpreted as "producing a small amount of absolute profit", but I read it as "barely producing more revenue than expenses", which is obviously incorrect in this case.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by em500 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:15AM (#12785708)
For software companies, "stop spending huge piles of money" means cutting jobs, see headline of this article.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by trymas on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @01:08AM (#12794008)
but maybe they simply have too many employees in the first place?
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by Naritai on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:26PM (#12784469)
Would you buy a stock that is guaranteed to stay flat for the discernible future? No? Then you have your answer.

(let's not forget that, thanks to inflation, 'flat' is actually losing money over time.)

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by planteen on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:29PM (#12784490)
If a that stock over time covers inflation and pays a dividend, absolutely.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by wefarrell on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:44PM (#12784578)
You're leaving beta. Any stock that fluctuates with the market is expected to have a much higher return than inflation, and with good reason.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by dlubarov on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:30AM (#12785307)
Presumably the parent meant a stock whose share price tracks inflation in spite of its dividend. So if you reinvest the dividend, you beat inflation and potentially beat the market, depending on the dividend yield.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by jdavis703 on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:37PM (#12784544)
At that point wouldn't bonds make more sense? Seems like the risk vs. reward balance is skewed the wrong way if you own a piece of stock that stays flat.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by tedunangst on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:28PM (#12785056)
If inflation shoots up, your bond will have the same payout but one can at least hope that dividends rise accordingly.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by coredog64 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:01AM (#12785195)
On the flip side, if the company goes bankrupt, bond holders are at or near the front of the line to be made whole.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by bandrami on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:10AM (#12787603)
Given that I generally hold for income rather than value, that's precisely what I look for. The last thing I want is a security that goes up in (real) value since that means they're not paying me the dividends they could.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by jusben1369 on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:08PM (#12784959)
Hah. I think patio11 just joined Stripe, one of the fastest growing startups around :) Anyway, besides many of the usual answers, talent is a key one often forgotten. People want the chance to do new and ever changing things so as to be challenged. It's hard to retain good people when they know it's going to be a smaller company with modest growth. What often kills companies with slowish growth is that they lose their best people to other companies with a more dynamic environment.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by user5994461 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:39AM (#12786727)
> What often kills companies with slowish growth is that they lose their best people to other companies with a more dynamic environment.

Till the best people get tired of stuff everchanging and breaking, combined with the lack of resources and the 70 hours startup week.

Then they drop the 'dynamic environment' and come back to Big Goompany :D

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by krinchan on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @10:51AM (#12788465)
I can't tell you how true this is. A lot of my friends still in the startup world call me a "burn out" and accuse me of having "no ambition."

Yeah, I have no ambition. Yet I can totally take a week off and head to Puerto Rico. Not only does the world not end, but I don't get called with an emergency while I'm hiking through the rainforest to find a swimming hole.

I get to go out every weekend. I go out on Sundays. I go out whenever. I pretty much key in 40 hours and work 35 hours a week (10 a.m. to 5 or 6).

Yeah, maybe I don't get paid above $200,000, but my life is straight out of some Oprah "Live your best life" book. So bite me. I'll take no ambition over that startup life any day.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by StanislavPetrov on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:28AM (#12785531)
> why do so many companies feel like they have to grow perpetually?

Because, in a nutshell, the "economy" is a massive ponzi scheme that depends on constant growth. This isn't a popular opinion among many of the VC crowd that believe in the myth of the meritocracy, but its an irrefutable truth. For example, the FED (and other central banks) set a target inflation rate (usually around 2%, but it can vary). That means if you are "stable", and the central bank has its way, you are actually shrinking.

Its obviously much more complex then this, but that is the crux of it. Unfortunately "sustainability", whether economic or environmental, isn't a priority for those .000001% of the oligarchs that run the show and make their money off debt servicing.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by infodroid on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:53AM (#12787486)
> ponzi scheme that depends on constant growth.

Can you recommend any references for a non-economist to learn about this theory?

Also, is this related to why financial markets are so obsessed with profit growth? I always wondered why being profitable wasn't a good enough indicator of success.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by wu-ikkyu on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @10:04AM (#12788062)
>Can you recommend any references for a non-economist to learn about this theory?

This TED talk by professor Franz Hörmann does a good job of explaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88ksYFsleto

Simply put, when money is created by the bank for a loan, only the amount for the loan (the principal) is created and given out. The problem is that an extra fee (interest) is charged on top, but the money to pay that fee was never created.

So basically it is an impossible contract to fulfill on a macro scale. A negative sum game.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by jomamaxx on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:33AM (#12787781)
"Can you recommend any references for a non-economist to learn about this theory?"

It's not a theory, it's armchair cynicism.

Some high growth startups are kind of like Ponzi schemes, in the sense that some investors know they won't ever get to the full valuation needed to justify the investment - but that someone down the line, after the IPO will be left 'holding the bag', but the economy itself is not a 'ponzi scheme'.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by guelo on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:52AM (#12785623)
> That means if you are "stable", and the central bank has its way, you are actually shrinking at 2% a year.

No, inflation means, in aggregate, the price businesses charge goes up.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by StanislavPetrov on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:58AM (#12785654)
That's completely wrong. Its a lost cause to try to explain economic theory on a forum but suffice to say that central banks factor completely arbitrary variables to get the number they want.

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpihqaitem.htm

>The CPI is calculated using prices for a fixed basket of goods and services through time. While the basket is periodically revised to reflect changing consumer expenditures, some items being priced in the sample come and go from the marketplace, making collection of these prices from month to month difficult. When an item is no longer available in the marketplace, a similar replacement item is selected. Often there are no similar items from which to choose, and as a result, a less comparable item is selected, potentially introducing quality change and an associated price differential into the index. The hedonic quality adjustment method removes any price differential attributed to a change in quality by adding or subtracting the estimated value of that change from the price of the old item.

That toilet paper you used to buy costs twice as much? Well the FED says the new toilet paper is of a higher quality, so it is actually counted as being lower priced then the toilet paper you bought for half as much last year.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by guelo on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:23AM (#12785736)
Actually, the FED targets something called the PCE price index which is an attempt at measuring price increases across all consumer spending. But those are just measuring details, if you want to you can go to economic conferences and argue the finer details of these measurements with rooms full of PhDs. The point though is that inflation targeting is about trying to keep the cycle of rising wages and rising prices going. And the point of that is to avoid deflation during recessions. The main losers from inflation are not businesses but lenders, which is why lending rates and inflation are closely related.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by StanislavPetrov on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:58AM (#12786339)
>You don't need a PHD to understand what this means, you need only basic reading comprehension and minimal intelligence:

Quote from FED:

>The hedonic quality adjustment method removes any price differential attributed to a change in quality by adding or subtracting the estimated value of that change from the price of the old item.

What do you think "attributing a change in quality" or subtracting "estimated value" means? If you don't understand how the introduction of these arbitrary variables, invented by a politicized FED, completely nullify any informational value, nobody can explain it to you.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by jomamaxx on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:39AM (#12787828)
You seem to fail to grasp even basic common sense: most products and service increase in value over time, and though it's difficult sometimes to measure that value, it's not 'arbitrary'.

For example - as Farmers improve their technology - Tomatoes become bigger, juicier and redder. Clearly - there is 'economic value' in those 'improved tomatoes' and that has has to be taken into consideration when comparing tomatoes grown before, to tomatoes grown now.

Stop misinforming people, take your conspiracy theories to ZeroHedge.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by brianwawok on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:15PM (#12792622)
Tomatoes is a bad example. They contain less nutrition and taste less good each year (Google it).

Maybe cars or something your story works with

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by jomamaxx on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:35AM (#12787791)
You articulation of the reasoning for 2% inflation targets by Central Banks is completely and utterly false.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by nostromo on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:51PM (#12784623)
Lots of companies don't grow and do fine.

But if your current value is based on a huge amount of projected growth, then going to "no growth" will be hugely painful for investors, founders, and employees.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by janeFondler on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:42AM (#12786741)
Because Twitter has received investment on the promise of eventual profit.

A low / no growth model is only feasible if they don't have investors / shareholders bucking for returns at every decision point. Twitter, has made a deal with the devil in becoming a publicly traded company because at some point needs to show their stakeholders a path to profitability. Job cuts, cutting expenditure whilst hopefully maintaining profits, are a good way to demonstrate this.

If Twitter wants to become a public internet utility, like wikipedia, existing investors will demand something like a share buyback, how will Twitter afford this without a period of profitability?

Finding a sugar daddy to buy them out is one option but the recent sutors probably felt that twitter stock is overvalued, largely because of the lack of profits.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by jomamaxx on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:43AM (#12787872)
It is not 'making a deal with the devil' to take other people's money on the basis that you'll return a certain amount of profit - and then not do so. The 'devil' it would seem are the Twitter founders, who took investors money on false premises.

So Twitter has hit a ceiling, they are making adjustments, which sadly are op cuts. If they want to hire more people than can grow their numbers.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by rs999gti on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:46AM (#12785591)
> why do so many companies feel like they have to grow perpetually?

Public companies have investors and those investors who have put in capital (money or time) either in the beginning or during operations expect a return on their investment. The company taking the investment keeps selling shares to get more capital getting them stuck on a ROI treadmill.

The only way to escape the ROI treadmill is to self-fund from operations profits and not take outside investments.

Unfortunately many of these startups depend on debt to keep operations going.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by maxt on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @10:21AM (#12788198)
> Dr. Srikumar created a life changing business school course so powerful that it has its own alumni association. He is the author of Happiness at Work and has helped thousands of executives find greater fulfillment in both life and work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGBoXTaitr0

Worth watching because his words of advice did help me when trying to grow my own business. I didn't reach my numbers, but having a goal gave me a sense of direction, and there was a sense of movement. I think we're only at a loss in business when everything falls still. I'm no expert, but I don't sense that Twitter is falling still just yet, and there's still movement.

As you said: "Why can't Twitter just be happy being Twitter". I can't imagine the web without Twitter and it still feels like some sort of plumbing, or public utility at this stage. Twitter is there like water (hopefully). You turn on the tap, and it's there like water.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by quxbar on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @10:46AM (#12788429)
I have to point out that this last point is totally ridiculous. Twitter is functionally just like like Xanga or Livejournal or any other dead blogging platform you care to name. Just because you have a community of dedicated users and a better UI doesn't mean the service is unique. It's as if you thought Evian(R) or Dasani(TM) are public utilities.

Frankly, I think we're going to see a backlash against information overload - social media has lost its novelty, and most consumers need far less of it than the producers want to provide.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by VLM on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:51PM (#12789486)
"than the producers want to provide"

Yes this is the analogy to TV where the market provided precisely 3 channels (plus PBS) for decades and a third of the population reliably watched each show on each channel, but that was 1970 and now in 2010s there's 500 cable channels and a wildly success narrowcast might reach as many as 1 in 40 citizens. Usually far less, of course, as little reach as 1 in 300 is possible with aggressive enough advertising budgets. Of course there is the superbowl but its only a couple hours per year and there's only one and that one is already here.

It has certain implications for future startups. It would be doom for current startups that financed assuming they'll be the one site that all 6 billion humans use. If the social media market follows the TV model, in 20 years we'll be back to multiple tribal sized BBSes, more or less, with the occasional temporary cultural fad resulting in short term scaling headaches. For about a month, about a billion of us, will try to simultaneously log into the pokemon go server, then we'll all try to forget it ever happened, which actually is a big enough problem to keep many engineers employed.

I'm not sure the financial markets know what to think of legacy TV right now, much less what will, by then, be legacy social media.

How do you finance or account for a one month pokemon go, times hundreds per year, when thats the new normal not an aberration?

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by brianwawok on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:12PM (#12792601)
Not sure tv analogy plays out.

We have many shows because people want different stuff to watch sure.

Why couldn't Reddit be the only BBS of the internet? Everyone in the same website, but live in a unique subreddit.

TV doesn't work like that.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by VLM on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @01:28PM (#12798489)
The problem with Reddit is its bigger than the Dunbar number so its possible to predict there's going to be severe problems with politics and censorship (and hey, golly, it turns out there is!).

Meanwhile in the Slashdot 90s a weblog discussion type site took a lot of money and an entire corporation to kinda run, but in the 10s a splinter group like Soylent News takes like three part time dudes, if that much, to serve up more than Slashdot ever did in the 90s.

So anything big automatically leads to political problems and 20 years ago, or even today, people just have to tolerate it, but as technology advanced eventually you'll be able to do more than reddit does with a simple $30 model 2025 raspberry pi and a sd card, so people will just move there instead.

Or rephrased the primary network effect of sharing Reddit is the joy of being a victim of raids from SRS, so people will be quite happy to leave.

Also I'd say we have very few TV shows because of expense and the resulting risk aversion. We have many nearly identical shows none worth watching. If the cost of TV shows scaled downward with technology we'd have some pretty interesting diversity of TV shows, but we don't.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by robbiemitchell on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:35AM (#12787790)
Bear in mind: Twitter has lost money (billions) over its lifetime, let alone failed to multiply the investment. More: http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/21/technology/twitter-10th-anni...
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by drakonandor on Thursday October 27, 2016 @11:55AM (#12806165)
That mindset is prevalent in people who can't understand any business being more valuable than a lemonade stand (preferably cardboard, so you can profit from day 1).
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by mwfunk on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:37PM (#12784836)
In the tech industry it seems like growth (or perceived growth potential) is the only thing that matters, profitability far less so (Amazon for example). Growth is what makes stock go up, so investors want to see growth every single quarter or they bail. If a tech company doesn't show growth, its stock doesn't stand still- it'll drop, maybe significantly. For publicly traded companies, executives can be replaced by the board if they don't deliver, and the board is supposed to represent the shareholders' interests (which for the tech industry means maintaining growth to keep the stock from tanking). It's a pretty messed up antipattern in the business environment IMO. The alternative is staying private, and perhaps limiting (or doing without) external investment.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by rogerthis on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:25PM (#12784457)
One reason is the rise of other players.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by harryh on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:38PM (#12784554)
This is perhaps the current best response to the question. The idea that twitter can exists as it currently does indefinitely is probably false. It will either grow or die when a competitor better exploits the ecological niche.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by __derek__ on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @03:52PM (#12791097)
Related to your point about your ideal sort of business, I enjoyed reading Rand Fishkin's reflections on his experience with Moz. On raising money[1]:

> As a result, the behavior VCs generally need to encourage is growth at any cost. If a company burns out trying to become that 100X star in the portfolio, it’s OK. But if they choose to grow slow and steady and build a sustainable but not particularly dominant business over 10–15 years, that’s non-ideal for the portfolio or the fund’s returns.

[1]: https://medium.com/@randfish/what-id-change-keep-the-same-do...

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by fuqted on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:15PM (#12785005)
A stock price takes into account future growth. When growth begins to stagnate, then the ticker will fall. People lose money.

In most cases it probably isn't a huge deal, but the fact that Twitter isn't profitable is likely a (large) factor. Without a given amount of users, it won't be profitable and decreased growth obviously means that profitability is further out. Hence them cutting costs.

There's obviously nothing wrong with a bootstrapped / lifestyle business. The people at Basecamp are big proponents of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBfVxBj61z0 Here's one interview out of plenty where they talk about this kind of thing.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by awkward on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:21AM (#12787686)
The VC answer is good, but I think growth is necessary to sustain the social part of a social network as well.

I joined Twitter very late, to get news when the Boston marathon bombing was happening, and while the feeling that twitter is a forum that covers the whole internet is still there, it's at late stages.

Most people are well and truly over the idea that twitter is worthwhile in and of itself, and most people are pretty much following as many people as they want to be. It's much more likely that long time users are cutting down on follows than adding new ones.

It still has a culture where you can talk to strangers on the internet, but a pretty big etiquette has grown up around that, and that can also be intimidating coming in late.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by brainflake on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:04PM (#12784944)
The simple answer is if you IPO at a certain price and declare you don't plan on growing at all, then nobody will participate in your offering or buy your shares in the open market. It's just a fact of life that as a public company you need to prove to your shareholders that next year your shares will be worth more than right now. Otherwise outside investors have no reason to invest in your company rather than keeping their money in a savings account (or a low risk alternative). The same basic premise applies to VC investments.

That's not to say that a patio11-style business is wrong, just that it's very different. It's personal preference if you've started the business and there's no right or wrong way.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by Zigurd on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:11PM (#12784979)
Even worse, once you've convinced investors that you're an essential component of the internet and you get a monster valuation, the only solutions worth looking at are ones that will fulfill a destiny that recedes with every passing day. Who is going to be the CEO who says "fuggeddaboudit, we ain't never gonna be Facebook. Learn to live with Twitter as the unfiltered (and therefore troll-infested) breaking news utility and whatever valuation that brings us."
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:36PM (#12784538)
Because society works better when it's growing. In a positive-sum game, coöperation is a winning strategy. In a zero-sum game, the only way to get ahead is by taking.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by riteshkpr on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:29PM (#12784491)
"why do so many companies feel like they have to grow perpetually?" -> Capitalism - growth, year over year, leads to higher stock price (market valuation) which in turn justifies higher payouts to ceo's, bonuses to employees... as growth == innovation

If you din't keep growing and managed to keep the business profitable (hit the ceiling), then you weren't 'innovating' and should be replaced ...

... that's the mindset. I don't agree with it.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by cookiecaper on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:29AM (#12785297)
Yeah, it's a symptom of the way that companies are valued on the open market. No one can be content with well enough as long as our pricing and ownership models work the way they work.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by traskjd on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:43PM (#12784859)
You need some growth, even if just to battle inflation. Inflation is nibbling away at the value constantly.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by inimino on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:19PM (#12785019)
Keeping up with inflation isn't growth.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by windowsworkstoo on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:36PM (#12785089)
You knew exactly what was meant but just in case - you still need nominal growth to avoid negative real growth
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by traskjd on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:42AM (#12785346)
Thanks, and yes that's what I meant :-)
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by jeffthespasm on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:24PM (#12789238)
This is comforting to read, because I was beginning to think I was the only one with that particular dream. I hope we both do it. Cheers!
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by joshAg on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:42PM (#12785116)
They don't. Or at least once a company is public they don't.

At a very high level, one of the arbitrary ways to divide up stocks is into growth stocks, value stocks, and income stocks. You can google those terms if you want a deeper level of understanding i provide, since those are the terms of art used in financial circles.

Growth stocks are stocks for companies that you/investors feel will continue to see increasing profits/revenues/earnings compared to the market.

Value stocks are companies that you/investors feel will are undervalued compared to their fundamentals.

Income stocks are companies that you/investors take for the dividend payments.

Continuing at a super high level (ie these are still generalities with examples to the contrary), growth stocks have higher price to earnings ratios and are valued primarily based on capital appreciation ("i think this stock's price is undervalued compared to its actual value"), which very much depends on how successful someone thinks a company will be, whereas value stocks have low price to earnings ratios and are valued primarily based on expected dividends payments (sidenote: one way for determining the value of a stock is to take the limit of the sum of all expected dividends from now until infinity). Income stocks aren't priced incorrectly the way the other two are and tend to match what investors expect the dividend payments to be (sidenote: all stocks can/do pay dividends, but that's generally not what drives the purchase of value/growth stocks).

Tech companies are almost all growth stocks. People buy them on the expectation that they will execute better than the rest of their competitors and that this will result in a large growth in revenue. Profitability doesn't really matter that much here as long as they have enough money to keep operating, because the expectation is that profitability will come later after revenue increases.

Once the company thinks that a business unit has saturated the market to the point where it can no longer grow revenue beyond the average rate of the market, it will transition to an income stock by focusing on cutting costs and trying to increase profitability as much as possible (since a priori revenue can't really increase in relation to the market).

If a company wants to remain a growth stock it needs to 1) successfully transition business units from growth to income without losing too much revenue (and simultaneously becoming profitable based on expected revenue levels, ie driving down expenses below revenue), and 2) identify new emerging markets where they can create a new business unit that can drive growth. If you do this right, you can fund 2 with 1 and remain a growth stock indefinitely. If you do this wrong, then investors will get angry and force you to pay higher dividends and sell off or shut down the growth parts of your business.

Growth stocks have advantages for (tech) companies due to the focus not being on profitability: Paying employees with RSUs (no one really does options anymore if they're public, but sure, options, too) is attractive to employees because the stock is expected to increase in value and RSUs/options are allocated in constant amounts of stock, not constant amounts of dollars (at an income stock company, stocks aren't as attractive as cold hard cash to employees, because of all the hassle of turning them into cash for essentially no gain, and this lowers profitability for the company compared to paying straight cash due to the way accounting works). Companies can lavish nonstandard and standard benefits on employees to attract top talent without investors batting much of an eye (at an income company it's much tougher to justify super great benefits due to the focus on profitability (why pay a top-tier person if a middle tier-person costs less than revenue loss associated with not going with the best).

After a company is public it's not so much VCs as it it the stockholders in general (of which the VCs are usually still a substantial member). But in general, they'd both say the same thing: either increase revenue substantially (preferred) or gracefully transition to income stock (less preferred). VCs will hang onto the stock as long as they think that it's a good investment for their fund (i don't know when this means they sell it, but it's not necessarily immediately after IPO).

Companies get in trouble when they are having trouble growing revenue. Investors will quickly push for them to transition to an income stock if they lose confidence in the company's ability to continue to grow. This is because in order for the stock price to not drop revenue has to keep increasing or the company has to become profitable enough to justify its stock price when considered as an income stock.

Twitter wants to remain a growth stock, but investors want to see increasing revenue for that. Since twitter can't do that, it's got to focus on increasing profitability by cutting expenses.

I left off value stocks so far. Essentially, if you fuck up the transition from growth to income stock for a business unit or you fuck up identifying new markets to grow into, your stock price will go down accordingly. If people think that this was a mistake that the company can correct and learn from, then they will see the price as undervalued compared to how they think the company will perform. This belief that the market has overreacted is what allows people to consider a certain stock a value stock.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by blahblah3 on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:09AM (#12787177)
Growth comes from reinvestment of capital into the business. This makes sense from a shareholder perspective when the risk-adjusted return on this invested capital outweighs the returns capital could get elsewhere (other stocks).

Some companies will actually stop growing and start paying dividends/sharebuybacks for this reason.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by kbuchanan on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:32PM (#12784512)
One simple answer to your question - speaking generally, as I know nothing about Twitter, specifically - is Twitter has yet to realize the expectations the _existing_ investors placed on it.

Real money was spent on real dreams, and the dreams failed to materialize. To give up on the BIG is to accept that their returns will fall sadly short.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by mathattack on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:12PM (#12784985)
It's not just VCs, it's the current owners. When you market value is much higher than sales and earnings, owners expect growth. This is the natural consequence of getting outside equity. Please note that the owners (equity holders) demanding this growth include the employees and managers.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by xapata on Monday October 24, 2016 @10:37PM (#12784837)
That's the nature of capitalism. If one company is growing faster than another, relative to the cost of their shares, the capital will move to the company that is growing faster until the price has adjusted.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by ProAm on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:40PM (#12785106)
Because they are public, have investors and are for sale. They are going to keep cutting until they appear cheap enough to buy. And once they are bought there will be more cuts. Twitter is having death pangs
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by code_sardaukar on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @11:41AM (#12788857)
You say that it's very sad for people to lose their jobs, but how sad is it if a business does not grow as fast as it might have, and so doesn't employ those people in the first place?
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by rebelidealist on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:49AM (#12787438)
When you get institutional investors your shareholders becomes liquid. When a company goes public, new shareholders (banks, funds, individuals) want growth FOREVER.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by messel on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:04AM (#12786372)
You nailed it, taking investor money and being guided by it to grow until your business breaks. Really appreciate your last paragraph.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by dboreham on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:51AM (#12787474)
Because money people expect the second derivative to be positive (because they only make money if that's the case).
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by nadezhda18 on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:27PM (#12784476)
usually, the business that does not grow is just one step away from going into decline. Do not remember where I heard it from. The idea is that a business has to grow; if a business is stagnating, it's too easy for it to slip into a decline and then oblivion.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by inimino on Monday October 24, 2016 @11:24PM (#12785039)
You can open a bakery and run it for a hundred years selling the same bread to the same folks.
Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by matchagaucho on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:49PM (#12784612)
They're shedding costs in anticipation of delivering poor subscriber and revenue numbers this Thursday.

If the stock falls below $10, pretty much any company can swoop in and buy them for a song.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by JustSomeNobody on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:15AM (#12787649)
Quarterly Earnings Reports.

Companies have to report earnings quarterly. Investors expect quarterly growth. If they don't get it they punish the company.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by ChuckMcM on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @02:04AM (#12785675)
Simple answer: net marginal customer revenue.

I'm not sure if that is an accounting term but I've seen it used in similar situations to describe how the business model works, or doesn't work.

It goes kind of like this:

Lets say that 1 SRE engineer, 1/4th developer, 1/3rd customer support agent, and 1/10th of a manager can support 10,000 users. (all made up numbers of course for this example). You can't really cut up manager's in 10ths so you really need 10x this to have 10 SRE engineers,4 developers, 3 customer support agents, and 1 manager.

So that is 100,000 users. But the cost of all those people don't bring in enough revenue from those users.

But there is a "scaling" effect, such that if you have twice that many people, instead of 200,000 users you can support 225,000 users. Four times and instead of 450,0000 users you can support 500,000 users. So the trick is to find the point in the model where you have enough users to make enough revenue to pay for all those people, and the hardware that supplies the service. At that point you're "break even", and then if you can push past it, you start generate cash above what you need, or net profit.

The more you can grow, the more net cash you can generate, and the "value" of your company, is typically a function on your earnings before you start paying taxes, and costing depreciation (EBITDA).

A web business like Twitter's (or Facebook's for that matter) then can be valued based on how many users they have and the revenue per thousand user metrics they can drive minus the cost per thousand users.

If you stop growing before your generating net income, you die. So there is a minimum you have to hit. And if you're well managed, you are constantly trying to minimize costs and maximize revenue to get a bigger income factor.

Here is another issue, generally, like with "blade computers" you get the most money by having just enough people and resources to handle all of your load. When you anticipate growth, if you build out more resources and that growth doesn't come, your stuck with the costs. Like having a computing blades chassis with just one blade in it. A really expensive computer. So you back off and lay off those folks you hired to get your costs back under control so you don't lose a ton of money.

Again, a well managed company will attempt to grow without hiring resources right up until they can't grow any further, and then hire. So that when the next tranche of people show up, you are ideally already net positive on income, just not by as large a margin as you used to be.

At the end of the day you're managing costs, user growth, and revenue per user. If you can't juggle all three you run a high risk of becoming an acquisition by someone who can.

Re:Twitter Plans Hundreds More Job Cuts as Soon as This Week by nameisu on Monday October 24, 2016 @09:26PM (#12784468)
facebook wants new users so it came up with free basics shit.