She listens, agrees, and then sends him more money.

It's something about cognitive dissonance.

I wonder if there is a known way to convince someone who is in this state. Cult debunkers and such might have thoughts?

That's how the Seventh-day Adventist Church was started. A church that today has more than 18 million members.

You can't reason people out of something they didn't reason themselves into.

People mostly believe what they want to believe.

http://www.npr.org/2011/07/17/138281522/how-bible-stories-ev...

https://skepticalteacher.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/the-embarr...

Beyond that, it's the entire history of the document, with the first 400 or so years being particularly amusing. To be clear, it's not like the same isn't true for other scriptures. You know that lovely story about Moses' birth? Just a ripoff of Sargon of Akkad's origin story, which was almost certainly not original.

Aside from the fact that you're impersonating someone, what would the legal ramifications be of "stealing" from someone only to deposit the money in an account they nominally control, but aren't aware of?

Frankly, an escort or camgirl habit could be cheaper.

This. And I suspect she's paying for the appearance of being treated seriously and having her emotions treated seriously, which OP clearly fails to deliver by arguing that she's wrong. I don't have many constructive ideas what to do, but don't repeat things that have never worked in the past and pay attention to her needs, not yours, might be a good starting point.

You have no idea what the situation is. This isn't some old lady we stuffed in an apartment and ignored on the other side of the city. My wife talks to her every day and we see her in person 4-5 times a week. She comes over for dinner every single weekend. She was treated seriously, right up until the point that she lost her life savings and started laundering money.

Remember it's not only quarter million bucks, but also her romantic feelings and her faith in this scammer and people in general. And her judgment and common sense.

So by some stupid fluke she took this risk and now she will do everything to make it work and prove she's right. The scammer offers her a path forward by promising happiness ever after, you guys don't because you keep telling her she will fail. This is roughly what I meant by "appearance of being treated seriously".

Probably she had never been that much of a fool, maybe she heard people laughing at others who had, it's entirely possible that it just doesn't occur to her that anyone could be understood and respected after such a spectacular failure. Especially if all the way along everybody was telling her she's wrong. Now if she fails she expects to be alone with it and have no one to understand her. So she can't afford her marriage plan to fail and will systematically disregard all of your advice which would kill this plan.

So what can you do? Don't listen to me, I may be totally off the mark. Don't care too much about her words, don't argue, instead pay close attention to her emotions. BTW, don't expect her to acknowledge them verbally if you catch her hiding them, it's going nowhere. Figure out what she wants, what gives her hope, what makes her anxious (probably most of the things you've been doing so far). Let her talk to heart's content about her plans regarding this scumbag and don't distance yourself from them (they are bogus anyway), let her figure it out on her own. She already has all the data to decide, but refuses to think about it. Don't treat her like a child by repeating arguments she could already recite from memory or expecting her to say one thing or another. It's her internal thoughts that really matter and you know none of it.

Think. Get help from a pro psychologist if you don't trust Internet smart-asses. Disregard anything that doesn't apply, it's all based on my observations.

Regarding the victim, my guess would be on early stages of dementia and/or emotional trauma after becoming a widow.

But if I would discuss this with a victim, I would try bringing up the psychology of a scammer. First in general terms, like the Nigeria letters, then the specifics about romance.

To really hurt someone this bad is not far from the level physical torture. It is not easy for normal people to live with the self image of destroying an innocent person's life in that way. So the perpetrators of such horrible acts have to despise and blame the victim. (This is what scare me about hateful political idealists, by the way, they tend to think people contradicting them are evil. Not an American, so this was not about the election.)

So scammers and criminals really hate and despise the victim.

(This scammer wasn't someone desperate or really poor, that is partly another discussion.)

Which gets me back to the what I comment on -- "hilop" could probably get a career in scamming, he has the right attitude to other people.

In my opinion, it's worth considering that she is aware(at least on some level) that this is a scam, and she just doesn't care, because she's too traumatized, because she longs for companionship, or whatever else reason. It's impossible to know without having a deep insight into michael_h's life, but it's worth considering.

I didn't study psychology, but from reading a bit and seeing people over the years -- I think there is a common thread with a need for perpetrators to dehumanize their victims.

About being depressed over humanity:

Compare clan societies with modern welfare states. The genes are about the same, so humans are really flexible from cultural programming. Just think about how to organize societies to make for nice places and nice people.

The point is -- don't weep for humanity any more than you would weep for cameras, because they might also be used to make bad art. Instead, wonder how to improve art education.

You could also record a video on your own phone as you swipe down through the scammer's texts as a crude way to archive them to study later so you get the impersonation right.

We can take over her finances if she is declared mentally incompetent. She's not mentally incompetent - she understands everything, but she just disagrees with the crucial bit: that the dude doesn't love her and is scamming her. As the judge told us yesterday: we are walking a fine line, taking over another person's autonomy, but it's not illegal to fall in love and do colossally stupid things.

You can literally buy the paperwork in supermarkets. Get it signed by the donor and witnessed by anyone at all, and you're set.

If there is no signed Power of Attorney paperwork, you have to persuade the Court that the person is no longer mentally competent to look after their own affairs.

Handing all of their money to a scammer counts as evidence towards that. But it's not absolutely guaranteed. There would probably be lawyers involved, and the Grant of PoA would be subject to messy and potentially expensive oversight by the Court.

Basically it's a good idea to get the paperwork ready well ahead of time, so you're not in a situation where you have to apply for a grant against a very confused person's wishes.

In the country where I was born, in my personal opinion (so this is not a neutral comment) startups are considered scams. Actually a few people elsewhere have expressed similar opinions. So, when you and an "online friend" get together and spend your own time and money, they consider it a scam. Like, if you are working with/for someone, they should be paying you! No concept of equity etc.

Now as we know, many stqrtups coasted by on "binders full of credit cards", were colossal risks. Adults have the right to do that.

Let's say someone tried to "get through to me" that there is NO SUCH THING AS SUCCESSFULLY RAISING MONEY OR A SUCCESSFUL EXIT. The problem is, they're wrong. There is such a thing.

So when you look at your mother's case - she disagrees with you. You are saying "this man is just lying to her" but she says, "no, no".

Well, ask her: does he talk about meeting her? Does he make plans to meet her? (I hope so.)

Have her plan a surprise trip to see him. It doesn't take much money to fly anywhere in the world.

If he is a scammer he will not want to see her under any circumstances. That will tell her all she needs to know.

What I mean is that you have to make her do something that is a differential between the two possibilities.

So do something - like visit the love interest - that differentiates between these cases.

I know someone in a similar situation. She's been abroad to see her "love" in Egypt regularly, and he's very attentive when she's there.

Of course they're planning to get married.

Of course it's love. What else would it be?

Works on guys too. I know someone else who has given rather a lot of money to an East European woman. I don't think they'll ever meet, because most East European women in these scams are actually criminal gangs. But we'll see.

Also, it's worth considering that these scams are marketing funnels designed to select the most gullible people and filter out everyone else. So the victims are self-selecting, because the scams are designed to find people with their particular psychological weaknesses.

So you need a much better differential when you sarcastically say "of course it's love".

At the very least, whatever enjoyment she's getting out of helping this person could be stretched out for decades, and it reduces the risk she'll be out on the streets with no options. And if the story is the guy is in debt, usually creditors are willing to negotiate a repayment plan, so it shouldn't be too hard of a sell. You could even say the scammer will benefit, since he won't get taxed as much doing it this way.

Depending on the exact terms, you might be able to fit in a conditional clause on the scammer only receiving money while they're married. Which she shouldn't oppose, since it's the plan; but a scammer would oppose.

At which point? Before meeting her paramour, she wouldn't have much incentive to lock her money away from herself. (Would you agree to this?) And afterwards, well, he really needs that money...

If your dead aunt had a Mercedes 190SL, but also owes $200,000, you can either take both or nothing.

But yeah – they won't end up in debt themselves, unless they choose to.

It only really becomes an issue if you have a strong personal attachment to assets that have high monetary value, like e.g. perhaps your childhood home - otherwise it boils down to a financial consideration.