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Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by ghufran_syed on Saturday September 03, 2016 @12:33AM (#12417740)
As an emergency physician, the first thing I would say if I ever met the doc would be 'well done' for volunteering - it's a hard thing to do. I'm also very glad that it seems the patient did ok.

However, in these kind of situations, I don't think it's in the patient's best interests to avoid diversion. The algorithm should be: 1) sick vs not sick - this person was clearly sick (when an ER docs say someone is 'sick', they usually mean there is a non-trivial probability that they could die in the next 24 hours) 2) Could a delay in critical care treatment lead to a worse outcome for the patient? If so, I would argue that you have to advise diversion to the nearest airport with the required standard of medical care.

That means that it might be ok to advise taking one hour to get to a major city, rather than taking 10 minutes to land at a rural airfield with a tiny hospital nearby - that's a judgement call. The only reason not to divert that I can think of is the cost to the airline, and passenger inconvenience: both of those looks like really bad reasons if the guys gets worse again and dies on the plane, when they might easily have been saved if they had diverted to a nearer airport + hospital.

I agree with another comment regarding the difficulty of IV's, particularly in shocked patient. Ideally, the airline kits would stock intra-osseous needles (needles with a screw that are screwed into the bone of the shin or upper arm using an electric dril). It sounds brutal,but is probably not much more painful than an IV, and takes seconds to do with training. The crew could be trained to use them as part of their first-aid training - the training takes less than an hour, and it would probably make more difference to patient outcome than having adrenaline on board would.

I totally agree about speaking to the pilot in person when you have a critically ill patient - they know (or can figure out) flight times to the various possible diversion airports, you (probably) know better what kind of care the patient needs, and the chances of finding that kind of care in a given city.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by hueving on Saturday September 03, 2016 @05:27AM (#12418479)
In a flight that long that you arent that far into, landing early for a diversion requires dumping fuel (for up to an hour on larger aircraft) or risking the lives of the other passengers because the plane is over maximum landing weight.

So it very much is a case by case analysis of balancing the urgency for one passenger with the damage to the environment (dumped fuel) + risk to other passengers for a heavy landing + risks to other passengers from imposing a delay (e.g. Another passenger flying to a surgery).

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by sitkack on Saturday September 03, 2016 @09:40AM (#12419148)
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by gizmodo59 on Saturday September 03, 2016 @12:23PM (#12419775)
I just read the wiki about fuel dumping. Based on that it seems less likely that most of the passenger flights have fuel dumping capabilities. Nice read though.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by TylerE on Saturday September 03, 2016 @04:03PM (#12420895)
You can always dump it the hard way... fly slow, with the aircraft in a high drag configuration (e.g. flaps out, possibly gear down as well if the speeds allow it) and lots of throttle.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by sandworm101 on Saturday September 03, 2016 @12:47AM (#12417788)
> It sounds brutal,but is probably not much more painful than an IV,

With due respect to a doctor, I've had an IV in my own arm and have seen an i-oss deployed on someone a few feet from me. The pain is not comparable, even when it is done by a expert. When it goes wrong and has to be repeated... The pain of i-oss needles has been much discussed in relation to the death penalty. They hurt.

My dentist told me about "pick a friend day" when they practiced injections deep into the jaw. Are there any med schools where students practice with i-oss needles on each other?

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by eyelidlessness on Saturday September 03, 2016 @01:53AM (#12417955)
It seems trite to say, but the level of discomfort of an unnecessary procedure can greatly exceed that of a necessary one.

I've had a posterior shoulder dislocation, which requires one to be put under to reduce the dislocation. An on-site EMT attempted to reduce it not knowing it was posterior, and the pain (while excruciating) was nothing compared to unnecessary attempts on repeat injuries (anterior dislocations, which do not require anesthetic of any kind).

It's a great idea to introduce professionals to the experience of what their actions might feel like to patients. But they almost certainly are an approximation.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by paviva on Saturday September 03, 2016 @02:37AM (#12418054)
It's not that painful. I self-inserted an IO a few years ago to demonstrate the technique, and it's really comparable to the pain with an IV.

Some patients are so scared that they begin to cry even before the needle touches the skin, and they might subjectively be in great pain, but it's not due to the technique itself.

You can read a little bit more about the pain here: http://sci-hub.cc/10.1177/1460408611430175

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by sandworm101 on Saturday September 03, 2016 @02:58AM (#12418107)
It will take much more than papers and doctors' testimony to convince me that jambing a piece of metal through a bone, with a drill, isn't painful. The guy beside me wasn't very happy, especially when they had to make that second attempt. Countless carpenters have put nails and staples through soft tissue, and occasionally through bone. That certainly hurts. I also cannot imagine pulling these things out is very fun. An IV can fall out unnoticed. A pin in a bone isn't going anywhere... which I guess is much of their purpose.

If I were the FAA, rather than issue drills to flight attendants, I'd focus on perhaps preventing at-risk people from boarding aircraft in the first place. Or train cabin crews to identify situations before they need the in-flight crash cart.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by maxerickson on Saturday September 03, 2016 @08:34AM (#12418958)
It sounds like your best bet for convincing yourself is doing like the GP poster and self-inserting one.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by throwanem on Saturday September 03, 2016 @09:00AM (#12419023)
That probably hurts a lot less than having someone else do it.

I used to take allergy shots as a child, and was greatly surprised to discover how much less it hurt to stick myself than to have a nurse do it - obviously not because of any better technique (I was eight), but rather because, controlling for noxious stimulus, you experience less pain when you're the one applying it to yourself.

I have no real idea why this is, but would guess it might be related on the one hand to having less bandwidth free to experience pain because you need to concentrate on what you're doing, and on the other hand being in control of what's going on to a greater extent than in the case where someone else is doing it to you. I also have no real idea of how to find studies corroborating the anecdote in a more systematic way, but I strongly suspect they exist and hope someone here will do a better job digging them out of PubMed than I have.

In any case, if it's a choice between having an intraosseous needle or dying, well, bring on the drill! I still have a few things left to do in this life. But I've had broken bones, too, and the pain from such an injury is unique and astonishing in a way that leaves me in no doubt of how unpleasant an intraosseous needle would be.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by tmp-20150107 on Monday September 05, 2016 @10:20AM (#12430454)
As an intravenous heroin user, I regularly inject into my veins and the pain, while not non-existent, is pretty minimal, unless I cannot access the vein due to thrombosis/collapse. This has always worried me, since it can take me half an hour to place a shot, and in hospital I have had multiple nurses and doctors try to insert a cannula over similar lengths of time. In a life threatening situation I have often wondered what would happen when the EMT could not get access. The existence of IO needles is interesting, therefore, since on IVDA patients they will still work - I just wonder how common a piece of kit they are in UK ambulances and A&E departments?
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by JupiterMoon on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @05:07PM (#12439296)
Off topic and this will come across as preachy - after all who is a random stranger to say how to live your life. But please think about quitting. Things will suck worse for a while but after some time life will get better.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by throwanem on Tuesday September 06, 2016 @08:34PM (#12440249)
Past comments give the strong impression that that is GP's goal. I suppose this may be deliberate deception, but I can't see why anyone would bother.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by ScottBurson on Saturday September 03, 2016 @01:18AM (#12417870)
The author says in the comments that they were over 2 hours from any airport, and given that this was halfway into a 17 hour flight, it's a fair guess they were somewhere over the Pacific -- the closest airport might have been on some little island.

I think you make a good point, but sounds like it was a tough call in this instance.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by cperciva on Saturday September 03, 2016 @06:06AM (#12418585)
The only flight Delta operates of this length is between Atlanta and Johannesburg, so they would have been over the Atlantic.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by mseebach on Saturday September 03, 2016 @07:20AM (#12418768)
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ATL-JNB

The nearest non-final destination for almost the entire flight is (a) pretty far away from the flight path anyway (b) probably not on anyones list of places they'd hope to end up in a severe medical emergency.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by lucb1e on Saturday September 03, 2016 @09:04AM (#12419037)
Wow, that path looks like it avoids any kind of land on purpose. Might make sense for legal issues, but I'd be much more comfortable if it went partly over South America or Africa (or close to the shore) in case of trouble with the plane.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by mseebach on Saturday September 03, 2016 @09:09AM (#12419052)
That path is a great circle path, it's simply the shortest path across the face of the earth. It's not a flight plan or anything (but, being the shortest path, it's pretty close to what any given flight would follow).

http://www.gcmap.com/faq/intro#definegc

Also, because it's so far from land, there are special procedures that need to be in place, see eg. ETOPS.

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by ejstronge on Saturday September 03, 2016 @09:48AM (#12419167)
There are actually regulations about how far an airplane can be from land - it's why so many flight paths are similar (US-Scotland overlaps US-Paris, for example).

You can use this website to see the true flight path for the Johannessburg flight: http://dl.fltmaps.com/en [enter Atlanta and Johannesburg as the endpoints]

EDIT: Can't find an FAA source about distances to airport, but here's a related Wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by mseebach on Saturday September 03, 2016 @09:53AM (#12419185)
That map does not show true flight paths, those are heavily stylised.

This is a true flight path, and it's much closer to the great circle: https://www.flightradar24.com/DAL200/ae190b1

Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by ejstronge on Sunday September 04, 2016 @11:47AM (#12424922)
You're right - I didn't realize those maps were stylized. Thanks for the correction!
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by lisper on Saturday September 03, 2016 @06:18AM (#12418612)
One item that doesn't seem to have entered into anyone's calculations, including the pilot's: the deposit of (ahem) raw sewage on the floor of the plane. If I were a passenger I think I would have wanted the pilot to divert even if the original patient was fully stabilized.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by dredmorbius on Saturday September 03, 2016 @09:57AM (#12419202)
Depending on the choice of diversion locations and capabilities for flight continuation and accomodation, alternatives may have been worse than a carpeted stool sample which could be neutralised with a disinfecting cleanser -- alcohol or bleach, say.
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by JupiterMoon on Saturday September 03, 2016 @04:36AM (#12418344)
On adrenaline. This is presumably in there for anaphylactic shock - in which case it will make a huge difference right?
Re:An account of a serious medical emergency on a transocean... by ghufran_syed on Saturday September 03, 2016 @05:17PM (#12421246)
Good point, I guess I was focussed on the use of adrenaline in cardiac arrest. Yes, it would certainly make a difference in that condition!

Funny, I even have a family member who carries an epipen, I had to give her a dose of adrenaline on a plane once when the chicken curry turned out (unexpectedly) to have nuts in it: we ended up using her own supply, but you're right, it should definitely be stocked!