Coming to Tokyo was great. Sure, people still ask where you live, but the proximity to the train station is more important than how many bedrooms/entertainment centers are in your McMansion. The only time I've been asked if I own or rent is when relatives came to stay. I don't know if it's the after effect of the property bubble bursting, because the cheap construction materials means housing stock is not built to last, because good inner city locations are still too expensive to buy (despite said bubble bursting) so everyone rents, or just a culture that does not place much social cachet on property ownership. But it suits me.
It's a competitive world we live in, and I often feel like I'm wasting every minute that I'm not actively working towards learning something new/planning my next cool experience/my next job opportunity. I wonder when I'll have the time to settle down and raise a family. Hopefully we can let some of the hot air out of housing market to make starting a stable, nuclear family somewhat tenable again in the near future.
That is something separate from the cost of paying a mortgage or renting, and his anecdote highlighted an involved cost of opportunity. One can earn even a higher financial condition (to raise kids or whatnot) by not being tied to a long term immobile project. You need the freedom to change (your place) if you have to. Change is important.
It can make you financially stable, cover for your health expenses, give you decent retirement, put your kids through school and give them a decent shot at life.
From when was all this a bad thing?
>> Both of us orient ourselves towards experiences over possessions.
God forbid only a health interruption, a major market crash or any other unforeseen financial difficulty can leave you far worse off compared to your peers.
Not to mention, compared to your very own parents you don't want to be homeless when you are old.
One of these things is not like the others.
I wound up spending two years driving from Alaska to Argentina [1], and now I'm setting off to spend two years driving around the perimeter of Africa.
I strongly believe time is much more important than money, and I'm very careful about how much money (time) I spend on "things".
[1] http://theroadchoseme.com is my blog of the trip(s)
Good luck out there!
Or, put more bluntly, your living scenario is highly correlated with low crime, home ownership, and the "standard american dream".
Also, do you worry about your van being broken in to while you're not there?
I shower every morning at my local 24 hour super sport gym. I'm a sucker for hygiene.
I don't really worry about my van being broken into because I think I tend to stay in low crime neighborhoods. I'm also not really attached to any material possessions contained within. Things come and go, no need to worry about them while they're here.
I'm writing a tongue-in-cheek book about the van life experience tentatively called "Tech Bubble Burst: A survival guide to living in and out of your van." It's been a blast of experience so far. :)
I have known people who live out of a van/truck camper until cops realize what's going on. They will harass you to no end. The tickets are expensive. The days of " Just move on." are over.
That said, in most counties, there is nowhere to park a vechicle overnight. We need to desiginate areas, in commercial areas, where people can legally sleep.
They have pretty much made it illegial to sleep Anywhere, without paying. Even Parks have time restrictions. I'm ashamed of what America has become.
If Jesus Christ reappeared, he would be hit with multiple municipal fines within a few days. It's just not right.
(If I seem mad-- I am. I had a friend who tried to live in the back of his truck, and take showers at a local gym. Cops harassed him nightly. Once the gym found out he was just using the showers--they made his life difficult. The one slime ball manager would time his workouts in order to use the facilities. Wonderful world we've got? Oh--yea, he was doing non-union construction. The last thing he wanted to do was workout at 6:30 a.m. in order to take a shower.)
OMG THIS.
So, I found about the last meteor shower one day before its peak. So my idea was to find a place – any place – that wasn't near any buildings. Forget about light pollution, I just wanted a sky devoid of direct lights. So, parks would be a nice option.
But try as I might, I couldn't find any parks that would allow me to stay after 6PM. There's one in Palo Alto that allows that for 'stargazing', but you have to request a permit in advance.
A permit? Really? For stargazing in a notorious light-polluted area? And that has to be filed in advance in business days? Come on.
At this rate I expect that you won't be allowed to park in the middle of nowhere in Nevada after the sun goes down.
http://www.businessinsider.com/google-employee-lives-in-truc...
What I found interesting was a recent study that found rape has a much higher rate of PTSD occurrence than other crimes - maybe it's so uniquely traumatic (and the threat of it so terrifying) that it forces women to be more careful than men even when men are statistically much more likely to be assaulted by strangers.
Well, you don't get PTSD after murder, and I would say that rape is the next worst thing that can happen to you, so I don't think it's that surprising...
Almost every woman I know has an innate fear of walking alone at night.
I'm not sure of the statistics, but my guess is that violent crime like rape happens far more to women to men.
For rape ("sexual assault"), women "win" by far (F: 91.89% M: 8.11%), but it's much less frequent than "aggravated assault" and "robbery". Also, I'm assuming that "sexual assault" doesn't include prison rape (which makes sense, since that's not something you should fear in public), but it probably includes rape by friend/acquaintance (which isn't something that you should fear in public, and wouldn't rise if living in a RV compared to a house). Allegedly, rape by stranger (in public) is a rather rare form of rape (although it still makes sense to fear it and not put yourself in situations where it's likely to happen).
Men are the majority of victims of serious crime (after removing "simple assault") (F: 40.22% M: 59.78%).
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime#In_Ca...
My wife and I are early 30s. I spent my 20s in the rat race, working 60-80 hour weeks for material possesions (nice vehicle, luxury townhouse, etc). At some point, I got tired of it and said, "Can we try something different?"
I switched to a fully remote job. We disposed of the townhouse (no equity in it). We downsized our lives (1 car! I ride a bicycle everywhere! You would not imaging how much better shape I'm in) and began to live more frugally with a short-term plan of moving onto a sailboat and living on the ocean for a few years. We save 50%+ of my income (we live in a low cost of living area), we should be able to retire comfortably around age 45. We'll be moving onto our sailboat in the next few months, learning to sail together, and then starting a long circumnavigation around the world (~5 years).
My wife didn't require any convincing. More quality time together for getting rid of things we shouldn't have cared about in the first place? It was an easy sell. If anything, she sold me.
Rule 1: Pick the right partner.
I have to go the opposite way: I'm recently divorced (I violated your Rule 1), and currently living just a bit too far from a major metro area for women there to want to date me, and there's absolutely zero women around here I have any interest in. So my next move is to move into the metro area, as close to downtown as affordable (considering both rents/CoL and job availability/location), because if I want to have a social life at all, that's where I have to go to find available women in my age range who I would consider dateable.
The other problem I see with your plan is that it sounds like you might not have any other friends or family (kinda hard to bring your friends with you on a 5-year sailing trip). I did that with my last wife: I didn't have any friends besides her, and moved around several times with her because of her career, and I think I got tired of her (it didn't help that we had some compatibility issues). Most common advice about marriage seems to include something about having friends outside the marriage. Living in a city gives you better access to that; living on a sailboat virtually guarantees you won't.
Sometimes they are gone for months at a time. One of them picks up work related to sailing when not sailing and is quite handy in fixing anything from sails to refurbishing old boats. When they are not sailing they come back to their home which has been paid off for many years. I suppose paying real estate tax is always there, but the benefit is that they have a good community to come home to. Plus it gives me a chance to partake in conversation and share a pint or three in front of a warm fire ;)
Can someone come up with a model that's sustainable and applicable to the majority of people?
If I lived in SF, I would pay at least $2-3K/month for rent alone (that's $24K-$36K/year after tax money you're just burning up). Yet, you can spend under $1K in almost any non-major metro in the US.
> Can someone come up with a model that's sustainable and applicable to the majority of people?
Make more than you spend and save combined, live frugally, spend judiciously. This is not rocket science.
Being financially independent can be done on a median wage, full stop.
https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/
"Is that all too fluffy and philosophical? OK, fine. Here’s how to cut your life costs in half. Start by getting rid of your Debt Emergency if you have one. Live close to work. Move to another city if you enjoy adventure. Don’t borrow money for cars, and don’t buy stupid ones. Ride a bike wherever you can. Cancel your TV service. Stop wasting money on groceries. Give your kids the opportunity to achieve greatness without being pampered. Lose the overpriced cell phones. Learn to appreciate the life-boosting joy of using your own body to get things done. Learn to mock convenience. Practice optimism."
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-m...
"A family of four in the US can live comfortably on about 24k per year plus having a paid-off house. With an nice conservative 4% annual withdrawal/return rate on your investments, you need $600k invested to generate this cashflow, inflation-adjusted, forever, plus your $200k house. $800k total. Or, if you want to get off your butt and work very occasionally to earn $12k per year, you can slice the $600k number down to $300k! Or you can save the $600k AND work, and keep saving more and more over the years – ending up a multimillionaire all while doing very little paid work."
You will never get ahead if you live in SF, period (maybe if you strike a startup lottery ticket; with those odds, might as well buy a traditional lottery ticket and save the nights and weekends). I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news. You can view it as an adventure, but you'll eventually need to dig out financially (overcompensate retirement savings) when you decide to move somewhere else.
So I'm in a major metropolitan center, burning cash at a way higher rate, so I can hopefully find a wife. If I'm very, very lucky, that wife will want to move with me to rural Colorado.
Sadly, this insane plan is about the best I can imagine.
> It requires living in nice rural communities where you will never, ever meet a new person, though, so if you start it single you'll stay that way forever.
I live 15 minutes from the beach in the Tampa area. Low cost of living area.
Basically, when it comes to dating it doesn't matter if you live in Issaquah (15 miles from Seattle) or Othello (180 miles from Seattle.) In neither case would anyone who lives in Seattle be bothered to go out on a date with you.
I live in Kirkland and I'm dating a woman who lives in West Seattle. We're older, but it's not like we're people who couldn't easily date other people who lived closer if we wished to do so.
I wish you success.
I did not enjoy NYC. Too dirty, too busy, too crowded.
Or Pittsburgh. Note where it ranks in the list of highest home ownership and cheapest rents.
(I live here, and there aren't as many tech jobs as SF or NYC, but maybe more than you would expect.)
I like the way you think, but this isn't absolutely true. I live in a high cost of living area (NYC) and I manage to invest a large portion of my take home.
I find it's easier to control one's spending than it is to control one's income based on location.
The thing about NYC is, the variance in spending is astronomical. If you try to keep up with the Joneses here you are literally competing at the global level of wealth. Luxuries here, like eating out, generally cost more.
On the flip side, the median _household_ income in NYC is around $50,000. So it's certainly possible to survive at a much lower cost of living than a traditional "Manhattan" lifestyle assumes. That said, life in NYC is objectively "harder" than anywhere else in the US so far as I've experienced (I imagine it isn't too different from London though tbh). If you want to live in comfort relative to say the midwest, you're gonna pay out the nose for it. Alternatively, you can save tens of thousands of dollars per year by opting for some relatively basic lifestyle changes such as having a roommate, eating at home, and not owning a car. Those 3 tradeoffs alone will max your 401k every year.
The consideration for accepting the "harder" lifestyle of NYC, is there are opportunities here that simply don't exist in cozier places to live in the US. That and you live longer due to all the extra walking ;-)
NOTE: All of this assumes you are child-free. Having children in NYC is a complete game changer cost wise from what I hear.
I'm 37 years old, single, never married, no children. A programmer recently turned sales guy. Through my 20s, I experienced an ever escalating salary as I moved up through the programming ranks. By the age of 29, I had accumulated about 25k of credit card debt and still have 35k of student loan debt yet to be repaid. At that time I was making around 90k a year.
Through poor financial decisions and instant gratification coupled with no cash cushion for emergencies, I amassed the credit card debt.
The financial crisis of 2008 hit. I found myself vulnerable to unemployment without savings to fall back on. I was laid off during this time but quickly found another job. The experience scared me deeply. I watched the news as people lost their homes, their savings and their way of life.
I wanted to live a way of life that wasn't so financially precarious.
I started by creating a realistic budget of all expenses. I ruthlessly cut any expense that were "optional" (this is a matter of personal circumstances). The first goal I achieved was a 3k cash cushion for emergencies (unforeseen car repairs, illness resulting in a large bill, etc).
The next step was paying on my debt before any discretionary spending. I created a habit and pride in paying a fixed amount out of every paycheck no matter what the circumstances that month. The progress was slow at first. I paid off the smallest credit card balance first to achieve a sense of accomplishment early on. It was a small victory but it helped motivate me to continue.
The largest credit card balance was about 24k. It took a couple of years to pay that thing off. During that time I was still able to go on cheap vacations and enjoy a meal out occasionally. The key to success for me was tracking my progress each payday and remaining steadfast in my commitment to pay the debt down.
The final piece of the puzzle was the student loan debt. Using the new habits of frugality and commitment along with the additional monthly budget that wasn't being used to pay on credit card debt, I was able to pay down about 35k in student loan debt in about 2 years.
I remember making that last payment. That moment wasn't cathartic. No fireworks. No congratulations.
I was utterly shocked by the inevitability of the passage of time. If I had made no plan, taken no action, those four years would have passed and I would likely be in the same position today that I was in when I started the debt reduction journey. It was truly frightening to think I could have done nothing and achieved nothing for those four years.
Today, I've nearly doubled my income since that time by moving into sales with the same employer. The work-from-home lifestyle suits me well. No commute, no expenses related to commuting. Healthy lunches cooked in my own kitchen. The benefits are many. Without this debt reduction experience, I would likely be wasting all the income I'm making now. I've learned how to save, invest and take a more critical eye to spending.
A little about how I live day-to-day (the original impetus for writing this comment).
I live in an old apartment building in a trendy part of Dallas, TX. The studio unit I occupy is less than 400 square feet. I found an existing tiny house in the middle of a city! Over the years, I've gotten rid of many personal possession that I simply no longer need or use. That experience has been freeing and results in less stress. My rent is 500 dollars a month. The single family homes around me on the same block are 400k+ for an original 2 bedroom, 1 bath bungalow. The new, larger homes are 800k+ for 4 bedrooms, 5 baths. My neighbors pay more in property taxes than I pay yearly in rent. That doesn't include home owners insurance, lawn maintenance, home repairs, and all the other hidden expenses in owning a home.
IKEA has been instrumental in getting the most out of such a small space. Decorating and innovating around this has been a fun experience. I have pictures if you're interested in seeing how it all comes together.
I've not sacrificed the wonderful, walkable neighborhood in which I live to make this change. I did have to look hard to find a rental this small, cheap, clean and safe.
I drive a 2003 Honda with 160k miles on it. It's long since paid off. Luckily, I'm getting past the age where I have the urge to buy a stupid, expensive car to boost my ego and my status. Working from home has reduced the miles I'm putting on the car which will hopefully extend it's useful life and value.
Mr. Money Mustache was a huge influence on me during this time. I grew to believe it was possible for me to extract myself from the debt trap I'd built.
My cash cushion has been extended to 24 months of expenses. This doesn't include any unemployment benefits for which I might be eligible. I max out my 401k contribution at 18.5k a year. I max out my IRA contribution, too. The rest of the free cashflow either goes into my brokerage accounts or to replenish my cash cushion if it's utilized at all.
I sleep more soundly at night. The perception of risk moving from programming to sales was lowered because I no longer live paycheck-to-paycheck. I have a clear path to a nice retirement nest egg and adventures abroad in the future.
If you want help in making a plan or even someone to simply listen, I'm game.
I'm currently downsizing possessions to a point where my 1100 sq.ft apt is starting to feel too big.
Horseshit. A family of 4 will spend about 2/3rds of that amount on healthcare (meaning insurance + deductibles and copays) alone. Then there's real estate tax as well, utilities, food, necessities. I'd say $50K is bare minimum, and $75k could actually be quite comfortable after some belt tightening.
I do own a home and rental property, and pay property taxes annually.
I did my first year at a 24K annual income with a slight assist from after-tax savings after being employed for 30+ years. Being 55 in San Diego, and getting an electronics engineering position ain't happening right now.
Do you make median wage?
If so, good for you.
If not, why don't you go do that before telling people how easy it is.
>>applicable to the majority of people?
>Have job that pays median US wage or above.
This requirement and solution are a mis-match.
Your goal should be to maximize the savings section of the equation, and minimize spending.
If one of the two of you is freelancing and has a variable income, getting the one with a reliable income to quit is risky.
vs
Crashing in a van in Palo Alto.
One of those sounds decidely more romantic and fun.
I love technology. I love the work I do. But I will only live so long. Work to live, don't live to work. Make enough to live well enough to spend time living well.
You won't lay on your death bed wishing you crammed a few more hours in at the computer. You will regret the extra hours you could've spent with those you care about.
We sold the big expensive house and moved into a 25' Airstream almost 4 years ago. I felt like I wasn't getting ahead. A bit stuck. I know she did as well. A bit different from the grandparent we still work a normal 40 hour week with normal (remote) jobs but have kind of checked out of the normal american dream.
http://i.imgur.com/FQfQIlu.jpg That little dot in the middle is where we are spending this week. Middle of the Mojave Desert about 10 miles from any human.
Internet is all cellular connections. Verizon unlimited plan with AT&T on our phones as backup. We use a powered booster with an antenna on the roof. Interstate 40 is ~12 miles away from our current location, so the tower we are on was built to serve the highway.
One thing I've found is that even if the people you knew before aren't available to make the transition, there are plenty people on the other side that will know you for who and what you are to them. Taking a stand and fighting for your change and growth takes some guts, and people find that admirable. Dating has also never been better because you both immediately enter into these relationships without pretense.
The real question is was the American dream really open to you? Was this life choice made easier because what was the american dream has been so diluted as to make it unpalatable?
Is the current craze in tiny homes because people really like tiny home or because it is the only realistic option for a lot of the enthusiasts. For some people the former is true. Other are at least in part rationalizing their belief ex post facto.
It's my impression that it gets harder and harder to create a place called home for the average person, as wages go down, available jobs are more competitively sought after (especially the ones where you feel like a human doing humane things from day to day), and real estate & rent around urban centers goes up.
Count your blessings if your field of work is amenable to being done remotely, and start building out the skills, habits, and resources needed that go along with it asap.
That place was home in a deep and meaningful sense. Do you know what I realised when I drove home on a weekend to a new house with no history, no lore, no memories? Home is where mum is.
Of course I also have a home in London which is rented and changes all the time and that, too, is home. I don't need to own a place for it to be home. I don't have to be there or have been there for years. I just have to go home and feel good about the space which is mine and filled with my people (and my things).
I guess I just disagree with the premise that there is a need for what you describe. It's something people are taught they need in some cultures.
But short of living in a true "tiny home" (< 400 sq ft), many people today (myself included) are "right-sizing": choosing to live in smaller than average spaces and using smarter space utilization, usually in order to reap some other benefit, whether that is proximity to amenities, work, and transit systems, lowering utility costs, etc.
It probably helps that having a huge house is weakening (though clearly not gone) as a symbol of social status, especially in crowded coastal urban areas.
I ended up just buying and crashing in a van, exiting that mode of being, and am much happier because of it. Now I get to save money, research and build what I want when I want, and generally am very much less stressed. I'm no longer beholden to a landlord, or feel like I must participate in activities that just serve to entertain but not enlighten. I can spend the day at the beach just reading if I wish.
You start to look at time as something that you can control again, and you start seeing how much life truly is a gift, and that life itself should be nurtured and cherished. There is also a sense of independence and DIY that comes along with the lifestyle that feels like I'm leveling up in good ways.
Will this mode change for me? Sure. Change is inevitable. But for now I've found more peace and focus than I have in a long time. I'm now able to concentrate on longer stretches of time that hold bigger ideas, and then asking myself how I might use that time to start refocusing my energy making new markets.