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Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by cbsmith on Friday August 30, 2013 @07:52AM (#6301217)
The real irony here is that airlines actually do something very much like overcommit & OOM killer when it comes to reservations, and for precisely the same reasons: they know that not all the reservations will be used at the same time, but sometimes they do end up double booked, so then someone has to be kicked off the flight.
Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by bruceboughton on Friday August 30, 2013 @08:16AM (#6301298)
Except they do this before the flight, not once you've taken off.

Though Ryanair could well be heading down this route [1]

[1] http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/three-ryanair-mayday-ca...

Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by Kliment on Friday August 30, 2013 @08:29AM (#6301329)
Very clever, that, once you think about it. "The on-time airline" running late, stuck in holding pattern, claim you're out of fuel, get landing priority, no more delay. About as classy as the other Ryanair tactics.
Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by bruceboughton on Friday August 30, 2013 @08:50AM (#6301399)
I would agree except that it seems to go deeper than that. Pilots are ranked by how little spare fuel they take. If they dare to take too much spare fuel they have to write a memo to management explaining why.
Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by taloft on Friday August 30, 2013 @08:52AM (#6301407)
Actually, they were low on fuel, because the company was forcing captains to carry only the company-approved minimum under threat of discipline.
Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by gnaffle on Friday August 30, 2013 @09:53AM (#6301703)
It's not company-approved, it's regulator-approved, which is designed to be sufficient. Airlines have no reason to go above that, except for planning reasons (eg you might want to add some extra fuel to have the option to fly faster on some legs to make up for delays). So I wouldn't expect Ryanair to carry less fuel than other airlines.

The only exception that airlines will sometimes do is to juggle around destination and alternate airports so that they can save some fuel on that (you have to have enough fuel to reach an alternate airport, and then 45 minutes in addition to that).

Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by bruceboughton on Friday August 30, 2013 @11:57AM (#6302427)
It may be designed to be sufficient but you still have to declare a fuel emergency if you fall below it so it is not a normal event.
Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by gnaffle on Friday August 30, 2013 @10:01AM (#6301749)
While I don't like Ryanair, this scenario isn't very likely. There will always be lots of paperwork etc. after declaring an emergency, which ultimately could end up with the pilots losing their license if it was discovered that they were repeatedly doing this.
Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by sokoloff on Saturday August 31, 2013 @08:29AM (#6306659)
I'm not an airline transport pilot, but in my personal flying, I've declared emergencies twice and asked for priority handling due to minimum fuel concerns once. No paperwork on any of them.

I also spend significant time on aviation/pilot forums, and I've literally never heard of "lots of paperwork" for any emergency that resulted in a safe, no injuries landing. The topic comes up regularly in the "should I have declared an emergency or not?" discussions, the common argument against is "I don't want the paperwork" (a strange trade off against a life-safety question in any case), and the most I've heard as routine followup is a phone call from an inspector.

My experience is exclusively US, so perhaps it's different in other areas of the world.

Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by gnaffle on Sunday September 01, 2013 @07:30AM (#6309894)
Maybe there is a difference between parts of the world, but I would be surprised if airlines don't have some kind of routine to follow when an emergency is declared. And I would be even more surprised if airline pilots on Ryanair routinely used emergencies as an excuse without it having any consequences.

The only issue I've ever caused was triggering a TCAS warning for a landing airplane because I was slow on starting a turn. Even though there were VFR conditions and we were at a safe dinstance, the other pilots said they had to report it as a matter of company policy, and my instructor had to make a few phone calls afterwards.

Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by furyg3 on Friday August 30, 2013 @08:52AM (#6301413)
Whoa..

> At least two memorandums were sent to Ryanair pilots detailing the company's concern about what was described as "excess fuel explanations" -- a description of the reasons flight commanders have to give if they take on extra fuel over the recommended minimum fuel load.

Is "because it's only the minimum!" not a valid answer?

Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by cbhl on Friday August 30, 2013 @10:39AM (#6301972)
If you read the article to the end, they had 90 minutes extra worth of fuel, and landed with 30 minutes left after diverting due to a thunderstorm.

It was a "mayday" because they didn't have enough fuel to return to the original airport they were going to land at and/or to continue waiting in a holding pattern for another hour.

Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by cuu508 on Friday August 30, 2013 @08:45AM (#6301381)
It's not the best analogy as when airplane is low on fuel, dropping a passenger wouldn't make a big difference (I'm assuming).

But think of a a hypothetical situation where low fuel situations somehow were common, unforeseeable and unavoidable. And if dropping a passenger could indeed make a difference between full crash or safe landing. It's a shitty situation, but it makes sense to give somebody a chute and kick them out, instead of letting all die.

Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by Dylan16807 on Friday August 30, 2013 @12:17PM (#6302564)
Yeah, sure, it's more like throwing out luggage, and some passengers bring huge amounts of luggage.

But critically low memory situations aren't unavoidable. Not overallocating is one very easy solution.

Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by twistedpair on Friday August 30, 2013 @11:08AM (#6302146)
Let's just accept that it is a poor analogy and a sensational title?
Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by k__ on Friday August 30, 2013 @09:17AM (#6301519)
yes, but how many people would you have to kick out to make a difference?
Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by cbsmith on Friday August 30, 2013 @07:30PM (#6304811)
Right, so they do it at pretty much the precise time that everyone grabs the seats. They don't somehow get everyone on the plane, take off without everyone in their seats, and THEN kick out passengers.
Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by lucaspiller on Friday August 30, 2013 @08:03AM (#6301260)
> sometimes they do end up double booked

Sometimes is pretty much all of the time. My SO works as cabin crew for one of the large airlines you will have heard of, and they typically always overcommit. It isn't just because they are greedy and want lots of money though (well I guess it kind of is). As you said, they know some people won't turn up, but also they may decide to change the class of the airline (economy and business -> economy, business and first) depending on how people book or what aircraft are available on the day.

Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by ubernostrum on Friday August 30, 2013 @08:54AM (#6301424)
but also they may decide to change the class of the airline (economy and business -> economy, business and first) depending on how people book or what aircraft are available on the day.

United is infamous for this, prompting a sound piece of advice: if for some reason you're in first class on a flight scheduled for an A320, don't take a seat in row 3, since odds are high it'll be swapped to an A319 (which only has two rows in F) day of the flight. In theory there's a pecking order for who gets downgraded in that case (first, anyone who moved up to F on a status upgrade, then the paid F fares starting with whoever was latest to check in), but in practice the gate agent just bumps row 3 and calls it a day.

Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by mherdeg on Friday August 30, 2013 @09:26AM (#6301555)
I feel like aircraft substitutions are more likely to happen for operational reasons (the A320 they wanted to commit is unavailable because of mx/wx, most likely, and instead of taking a delay, they pull an A319). Some carriers do seem to use last-minute equipment swaps for yield management, but I feel like for UA, doing this is not a good idea — they burn a lot of time re-assigning seats and refunding E+ fees, etc. after a 320->319 downgrade, so I think it's something they try to avoid because it's costly to deviate from the planned equipment.

I think the parent poster was in part referring to operational upgrades (very common at British Airways — they will dramatically oversell the Y cabin and op-up people into J/F as needed), which don't necessarily require an equipment swap.

Another option uniquely available to European carriers that you might not have seen in the U.S. is to adjust the number of J/Y seats in an aircraft: on most intra-Europe flights, the "business-class cabin" is the same seats as the coach cabin, but with a blocked middle seat and a movable divider so you know where Y starts.

(Come to think of it, I guess BA will sometimes swap equipment to a flight with fewer classes of service — for example, the LHR-DME route can lose its lie-flat Club World seats overnight sometimes after unplanned equipment swaps — but I don't think BA does this for yield management, because it's costly to them to have to pay refunds to people they've inconvenienced.)

Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by ubernostrum on Friday August 30, 2013 @09:37AM (#6301618)
I don't know why United does it, just that the A320/A319 swap is so common with them that on frequent-flyer forums it often gets a stickied thread with tips on what to do, warning signs, etc. Hence the advice about never taking a seat in row 3 (and for economy passengers, never booking into the last couple rows of the aircraft, since those seats don't exist on the 319).
Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by mherdeg on Friday August 30, 2013 @12:31PM (#6302657)
There's also a counterintuitive "always choose row 3" option, where you make yourself more likely to be downgraded but also more likely to be offered a travel voucher under United's fairly generous distance-based compensation policy (internal documentation "GG OVS DOWNGRADE").
Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by sliverstorm on Friday August 30, 2013 @01:05PM (#6302878)
It isn't just because they are greedy and want lots of money

Certainly not in the current airline environment. Even with a perfectly loaded plane, they only make a little money, and you can't plan for a perfectly loaded plane with any kind of confidence without double-booking.

Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by cbsmith on Friday August 30, 2013 @07:32PM (#6304818)
> My SO works as cabin crew for one of the large airlines you will have heard of, and they typically always overcommit.

I phrased what I said poorly. They always allow overcommit, but they try to work it out so that on average they efficiently make use of their seats without constantly having to give people giveaways and bad customer experiences.

Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by mhb on Friday August 30, 2013 @08:52AM (#6301411)
Also, Samoa Air charges by the pound. Maybe there could be some kind of auction system for "heavier" processes to "pay" more to keep running.

http://business.time.com/2013/04/08/air-travel-by-the-pound-...

Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by tcoppi on Friday August 30, 2013 @08:01AM (#6301251)
Precisely. The OOM killer has its uses, and while it's debatable if it is suited for this workload or that workload, it is easily tunable for specific use cases, and you can disable it altogether if you'd like the classic behavior.
Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by BrainInAJar on Friday August 30, 2013 @12:55PM (#6302804)
Yes, but that's more like fork or malloc failing in the first place than letting you run and then randomly killing something when the system gets overcomitted
Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by mikeash on Friday August 30, 2013 @10:40AM (#6301984)
That's more analogous to the strategy of pausing processes which require memory when there isn't any available, and then resuming them once memory becomes available. The airline still lets you complete your trip when they bump you from a flight, you just have to wait until capacity becomes available for you.

The problem with translating that approach to OSes is that you can easily deadlock the entire system.

Re:In emergency cases a passenger was selected and thrown ou... by cbsmith on Friday August 30, 2013 @07:34PM (#6304823)
It depends on circumstance. For a lot of people, having their flight canceled and having to switch to another is all but catastrophic. You basically have to restart and build a new travel plan, and much of what you set out to accomplish gets lost.

So... a lot like killing a process.