If you want to direct blame, depression robbed all three of them of their future together, and their insurance allowed depression to progress until fatal.

Hoping for someone to get ahold of themselves in the middle of mental illness is not an expectation grounded in reality.

Exactly. We don't use the above commenter's framing for schizophrenia, OCD or psychosis deaths for this reason. We just have a cultural programming to say that anything that isn't very visible must be fake.

I think people who commit suicide really believe they actually help their families or the world is better off without them. So, no, they are far from cruel. They are considerate.

How sad. :(

There are levels of depression (or other circumstances) at which people are actual drains on their family. While I would never recommend suicide, it is a rational personal choice for some of those with severe health problems that for whatever reason (financial, insurance, whatever) cannot be fixed.

>There are levels of depression (or other circumstances) at which people are actual drains on their family.

Committing suicide almost certainly guarantees further suicides within that close family. Children especially... years later. In certain social circles (teenage suicide), it heightens the risk of further teenage suicides, even among non-peers in some cases.

Unless the facehugger has just laid an egg in your gut, suicide is never rational and its consequences will play out over decades.

> Committing suicide almost certainly guarantees further suicides within that close family.

Not sure why this is downvoted.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-british-journal-...

"The experience of losing a parent to suicide is a strong and independent risk factor for suicidal behaviour in offspring."

Because causation != correlation. This could just as easily be explained as "severe depression has a genetic factor".

We know it has a genetic factor.

We also know that's not the full story, and that people who lose a parent at a young age for any reason are more likely to struggle emotionally.

When teenage suicide clusters hit all the small towns within 50 miles of each other, you're positing that they were actually half-siblings and didn't know it, eh?

I'm glad people like you downvote me, it lets me know that I'm right.

> I'm glad people like you downvote me

HN doesn't let you downvote people who respond directly to you. Don't make assumptions like that.

> Not sure why this is downvoted.

Almost certainly guarantees was very false. The review said The absolute risk of dying by suicide in offspring of suicide decedents ranged from 0.23 to 2.9% (mean 0.87%; median 0.56%) in the included cohort studies.

Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.[1] Unless the facehugger has just laid an egg in your gut, suicide is never rational was not thoughtful and substantive.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

There are all kinds of nuances and complexities to the human condition, especially when it comes to something like depression.

I think the parent comment, with it's implied blame/shame of the deceased, is missing a lot.

As someone with depression, to others who might read this, know that there are those out there who care about what you are going through, have compassion, and don't need or want to blame you for what you are experiencing.

There is a place for responsibility and ownership of consequences. But the parent comment isn't the way to do it.

people who are suicidal are insane (i have some experience here) they think the ending of their life is the logical next step, i wouldn't place too much blame. On the other hand, i think resentment by a dependent would be a natural reaction.

"I've never been suicidal..."

That's why you can't understand.

>The ensuing months led to a rotating cycle of failed outpatient treatment programs followed by ER visits, brief admissions, and premature discharges. And Randy kept getting worse. He became so unstable with paranoid delusions and psychosis that he was not safe to be around me or the children. He never came home.

From TFA. This isn't someone who reasoned their way into suicide.

Ahh. Yes, the delusional man who's psychiatric fibers were in tatters could have totally understood and digested that his actions that day were selfish. If only you had been there to say that to him.

Setting aside the shaming part of your comment, it's indeed absolutely horrific for the family and everyone close to him.

In all seriousness, people often commit suicide when they feel like nobody wants them around anyway. He may not have registered that his loss would be a negative to those around him, even those closest to him.

Isn't that the definition of being selfish?

No, selfish would be more like knowing it, being of reasonably sound mind, and doing it anyways.

Being convinced of something by wonky brain chemistry isn't necessarily a personal failing.

My brain chemistry tells me i'm better than most people and deserve more. Is that...selfish?

That depends significantly on how wonky it is.

There's a big spectrum between "just knowingly a dick" and "deeply delusional".

Specifically, that would be arrogance and entitlement. Both are typically considered selfish.

We don't know whether brain chemistry alone leads to this. The traits are complex enough that most likely it is a result of social conditioning rather than only genetics. Genetics may still play a role however, especially epigenetics.

No, clinically that is known as a delusion.

I feel like ascribing it to "wonky brain chemistry" serves to erase agency. I read the article and there are very real and reoccurring reasons of incredible mistreatment for why this happened. It is not because he was simply unstable and decided to try suicide for no reason. He had such a reason that I am incredibly disappointed in the entire system that led to this.

> I feel like ascribing it to "wonky brain chemistry" serves to erase agency.

Wonky brain chemistry can erase agency.

(As can an empty bank account from an insurance denial!)

I mean, I don't agree with the assumption that he was simply irrational and chose this because he wasn't thinking straight. I would much rather believe that he had strong reasons for this and that there is something to be done about the circumstances that led to it. Suicide is more often than not a systemic failure and not simply an outlier to be ignored.

If you read the article and see all the shit that he went through before he died it should be obvious that he's not the one at fault for breaking under that pressure. Not everyone has the strength to brave such bullshit.

> I mean, I don't agree with the assumption that he was simply irrational and chose this because he wasn't thinking straight.

And I don't agree with the assertions that that's not a possibility.

I don't consider it a possibility that state of mind would not have been a result of his mistreatment. You seem to recognize it can be brought about by situations, and I consider that reasoning enough. You don't have to perfectly calculate suicide as the only practical answer in order for your actions to be reasoned. Even primal reasoning can count.

> I don't consider it a possibility that state of mind would not have been a result of his mistreatment.

Why? There are very well treated people who still get suicidal.

Sometimes brain chemistry obliterates agency.

Sure, suicide can be incredibly selfish, but there are other factors at play here. It's not like he just decided he wanted to harm everybody around him. There are basically always much stronger motivations that stem from very tragic mistreatment and that deserves more recognition than however morally incorrect or disrespectful to others it is to end one's own life.

I say this as someone who has attempted and who knows multiple others who have attempted. None of those attempts were intended to harm anyone. They were meant to put an end to unbearable suffering that had no apparent other way out.