Brave has an interesting approach where they have added core support for four key MV2 extensions to the core of the browser engine, bypassing MV3 entirely.

> Update: As of v1.81, we host the following Manifest V2 (MV2) extensions on Brave’s backend: AdGuard, uBO, uMatrix, NoScript. These extensions operate independently from the equivalent versions that are currently present on the Chrome Web Store, and have to be downloaded separately. Users can download and enable these 4 extensions from the brave://settings/extensions/v2 page.

https://brave.com/blog/brave-shields-manifest-v3/

I just don’t see this being sustainable long term when you’re upstream is doing everything they can to sabotage you. This is a huge maintenance burden for Brave and eventually there might be a breaking change introduced by Google that just makes this approach no longer tenable.

Mozilla is extremely friendly to content blockers, and does everything they can to make sure they are well supported as first class citizens.

How is Google doing "everything they can to sabotage you"? MV2's deprecation timeline was set in 2021, slipping further repeatedly. This is after they had already started the plan in 2018. It's been nearly a decade.

Boiling you slowly still means they're boiling you.

They don't boil you fast, because they can't: you would balk at that.

In other words, taken together, they do all they can to boil you on that issue and kill ad-blockers.

I feel like you can justify literally anything as "doing everything they can" if "they did it fast" and "they did it over the course of a decade, replaced the API, the API still supports ad blockers, etc" are treated the same way.

Hmm I don't know about sustainable long term. Maybe with LLMs the burden of rebasing and porting the needed patches to keep it working across versions would make the task fairly sustainable vs no LLM usage.

That being said, agree that this is a horrible move and we are paying the consequences of it due to the huge market Chromium-browsers occupy. I'm a Firefox user as well, but it is really slow in adopting latest web features and I won't hold my breath for a shiny future, in regards Mozilla. Maybe there is a shiny future, maybe there is not.

At family gatherings, in their computers, it's all Google Chrome. No adblocks whatsoever. They got "used to" seeing ads everywhere. I personally can't. Web is literally unusable for me without it. I try my best to install adblocks in their devices. Most of the time, making them use Firefox is out of the question, as they are tied and "used to" Chrome profile sync and don't want to log in their pages once again, etc. My mom got me luckily, and I got her Brave with all branding, sponsored and crypto non-sense disabled. Otherwise, she's the perfect target for incorrectly clicking through a sponsored post in a google search, or similar popups and stuff in other websites, resulting in deceive behavior.

This is the worst of it, actually. It's not just "commercial ads". Sometimes, it's just deceiving behavior, manipulating people's opinions, and making them feel in a particular way to do god knows what.

WebKit being forced down to iOS user's throat is also that should not happen, but we as society for consented to it. We can say that this is the only thing holding Chromium to become pure havok. Although ublock is available there, is it in their "lite" format, same as Chromium. So, not the full uBlock that we should be getting...

There's also a part where we should blame ourselves as culture for letting all these things to slide without doing anything for it. Microsoft got sued by the US in 2001 for an antitrust case for leveraging Internet Explorer through their Windows monopoly in PC market. We have it so much worse today, and no one seems to bat an eye. I know things are far more complex compared to the past, but hey, due to it, we should have more strict systems in place to prevent these anti-people behavior.

Ladybird is a welcome addition to the scene. Hopefully something beautiful comes out of them in the next couple of years.

I think maintaining the MV2 paths would be a huge maintenance burden, but this approach, being scoped to only four plugins that are widely used, seems to be much more tractable. I'd put on about the same level of effort as maintaining their own ad blocking engine.

The extensions are in addition to their own included ad and other nuisance blocking features. I've been testing migrating from Firefox to Brave Origin (the paid fork with no crypto features that has a free linux build) and it works pretty well without any extensions.

Yesterday I wanted to get a brave search api key on the free tier and they require a credit card even for that. That pissed me off a bit but still gonna test the browser a little bit more. Firefox is really pissing me off and I don't want to keep using it forever just because there is no other browser engine. Can't wait for Ladybird to become usable.

I used brave a bit and really liked it.

But its obvious that these guys are semi shady and they will show sooner or later. I liked chrome derviates and used them over a decade. I got tired of feeling forced to switch after vivaldi/brave so I went the firefox way last year.

The circle is completed.

how are they obviously semi shady? whats shady about brave?

yea this is bad, i had kinda forgotten about this https://github.com/lobsters/lobsters-ansible/issues/45#issue...

i dont know, firefox is very buggy and unstable, crashes or just log me out of everything every few weeks, we dont really have great choices, wishful thinking, but i hope brave straightened up

Yuck! I'd heard of these but I am always like "it IS open source". But so is Mozilla. I actually did test a build of Ladybird. The sites I looked at (without login or anything) basically all work fine but they are VERY slow. This is understandable. Performance is not their priority right now. It is coming along fine though.

What bothers me about Brave is that, although it is "open source," in practice using Brave means running binaries distributed by Brave Software (a for-profit, VC-backed adtech company). As far as I know, no independent builds are yet part of a mainstream Linux distro, and the project calls forks "freeriding." The browser may be OK, but all of this does not inspire a lot of confidence.

The complexity here is definitely a point against Brave.

And sadly, Firefox on iOS is the only browser that doesn't have a the possibility to run an Adblocker. Safari can run uBlock Origin. Brave had one built-in. Hell, even Edge has Adblock Plus.

Does Mozilla have a contract with Google to not build one in as part of the search contract?

They allow extensions on the Android version. But yeah, on iOS I had to switch to Orion. It seems FF for iOS doesn’t get much attention.

Firefox on Android supports ublock, not sure why it wouldn't support it on iOS

It's because Apple does not allow Firefox to install an actual browser on iOS. Firefox on iOS is just a skinned version of WebKit/Safari. See 2.5.6:

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#per...

> It's because Apple does not allow Firefox to install an actual browser on iOS.

That's incorrect, and Firefox doesn't blame Apple for this. Many 3rd-party iOS browsers do ad blocking natively and/or via extensions. https://orionbrowser.com/platforms/ios

This is not the cause though - other third-party browsers on iOS can do ad-blocking, and also can use system-installed extensions.

They could also launch an alternative browser engine for iOS and iPadOS in the EU.

> Firefox on iOS is just a skinned version of WebKit/Safari

So are Chrome, Brave, and Edge. And yet, they support ad-blocking extensions (and so does Safari).

What?

https://www.firefox.com/en-US/mobile/focus/

The only thing I use Firefox on iOS for *is* its ad blocker.

This links to “Firefox Focus” which is different in the iOS App Store than “Firefox”. I had no idea.

This Firefox Focus on iOS does effectively block adds on a recipe site unlike plain Firefox. I just did a cursory head to head test on the same recipe site url.

Thank you for sharing this!

I use it on iOS daily and there’s no ad blocker. The page you linked only mentions tracking blocking. If you actually have ad blocking enabled, I’m sure a lot of us would love to hear how you did it.

Mozilla advertised Firefox Focus to block tracking and ads before. And it blocks some ads.[1] It is not possible to block tracking effectively without blocking some ads at least. They could have stopped to advertise ad blocking because people who wanted ad blocking wanted better.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48557156

It was originally pitched as a "distraction blocker" and it works in two modes. As a browser and as a content blocker, if you enable it in Safari's extension settings. I've still got it set up as a content blocking Safari extension (you find that in Settings -> Apps -> Safari -> Extensions) and it still seems to be blocking ads for me. Maybe not as many as it once did, but I just turned it off to see, and that made an unpleasant difference.

I think I've been using it for 10 years (or so) now. It's my favorite thing Mozilla has done on iOS.

Focus does not sync with Firefox desktop, and the sync part is the reason I want to use the SAME one on desktop and mobile.

> iOS

If free computing and user control are a priority for you, consider switching to GrapheneOS. You get better security than iOS, a UI/UX that does not assume you are mildly retarded, and full freedom to run any program from any source, including IronFox (a hardened Firefox fork).

As you alluded to, many Chromium forks (notable exception is Ungoogled) are backed by tech companies. There's already plenty of intentional changes they maintain in their forks, like Privacy Sandbox,[0] so I don't think preserving support for v2 is a large hurdle for them.

[0]: https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us/articles/10742158329613-W...

Google described Manifest V2 as significant tech debt with new bugs still found there. Either they are lying or it's a non-trivial feature set to continue to support.

So will be interesting to see how many other browsers actually do keep this support alive.

A trillion dollar company? Lying? That's beyond the pale. Google has never done anything against my interests. They're always sooooooo honest in their communications.

oh, you sweet summer child

"Backed by tech companies"

Yup, huge red flag. Non-profit is the long-term way to go.

The Mozilla Foundation is a non-profit, but people still find creative ways to crap all over them for some reason.

Someone else in this thread said they were "supporting the closed internet" by sending search queries to Google.

Yup, this kind of criticism happens all the time. It's good to point out -- but a lot of people treat it like a deal-killer, which is the height of naivete.

We can use helium. It works fine.

Chromium-based, so it's a non-starter. If you care about the open web, you shouldn't use anything related to Chromium.

I see a lot of people saying that Firefox is not as good as Chrome. Do you have any examples of things Chrome does that Firefox doesn't? Genuinely curious, I have been alternating between Chrome and Firefox for the past two decades and last time I switched back to Firefox was 2 years ago, and I haven't had any performance/compability/feature concerns at all. (Full disclosure I use Zen, not vanilla Firefox)

Two things that I noticed: - Firefox did crash on me more frequently. It wasn't a daily, or even a weekly thing, but it was more of a problem. - Firefox limits how small I can shrink my tabs in the tab bar. Chrome also has a limit, but it is much less restrictive.

That last one was the killer difference for me. Firefox wants me to be able to see (at least part of) the title of each tab, even if that means I can't see all my tabs at once. I want to see all of my tabs at once, and I don't care if I can see the title - the favicon is enough.

I did try configuring Firefox to let me shrink the tabs more, and even tried messing with its GTK configuration, but no luck.

So I do feel a bit bad for using Brave instead of Firefox, but after months of dealing with Firefox's UI I lost patience.

> - Firefox limits how small I can shrink my tabs in the tab bar.

This can be changed via chrome/userChrome.css.

Mine is:

  @namespace url("http://www.mozilla.org/keymaster/gatekeeper/there.is.only.xul");
  
  .tabbrowser-tab {
    min-width: 3em !important;
    clip-width: 3em !important;
    
  }
  
  [uidensity="compact"]:root {
    --tab-min-height: 30px !important;
    --newtab-margin: -3px 0 -3px -3px !important;
  }
  
  .tabbrowser-tab {
    max-height: var(--tab-min-height) !important;
  }
  
  .tabs-newtab-button{
    margin: var(--newtab-margin) !important;
  }

I don't remember if that exactly is line-for-line what I did, but I was at least doing something similar, and not having success.

Try vertical tabs. I fell in love since I've been using it daily. Zen has a special flavor of vertical tabs where pinned tabs open links in a modal, which I now can't do without, and can be reset to the original url with a middle click. I use that all the time for HN, mail, youtube, claude, etc. I believe Waterfox also has a neat implementation of vertical tabs as smart trees.

I really don't like the idea of vertical tabs, but given how so many web pages these days work, I should probably give them a try. That said, the tree-based approach is fascinating - points to Zen (and related efforts) for trying such a different paradigm for arranging tabs.

Firefox leaks memory. When I have it open for long time the memory usage will increase and even if I were to close all tabs & do memory minimization it will still use multiple gigabytes of memory.

While I cannot be sure, I assume that is the cause of the general slowdown I experience as well.

Restarting Firefox will fix free up the memory & fix the slowness. I do still use it as my primary browser despite these issues.

Is that on Windows? I use Linux and Mac and haven't had memory leaks. In fact, Chrome is more a problem for me on the Mac since my wife likes to keep Chrome windows open on her profile indefinitely, and Chrome keeps downloading updates on the background and takes a large chunk of my hard drive keeping every version that ever existed in the .App file.

Windows so maybe that is related.

Do note that I regularly have multiple browser windows open (and these are usually on private mode) with 50+ tabs so my usage pattern is not very standard.

Web USB and Web NFC immediately come to my mind, it took ages until they at least implemented Web Serial in Firefox a few weeks ago.

And the devtools are nowhere near comparable to Chrome's, although I admit this might be a matter of personal experience.

I've just realised how infrequently I visit regular websites these days. Everything is trashed, popups, cookie requests, ads splattered everywhere.

I read some blogs that get linked from hn. I read some reddit subs. And I use LLMs for "search" and questions.

Whenever I do have to go back to the regular web it is horrible.