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Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by giancarlostoro on Friday August 29, 2025 @09:26AM (#45063830)
I'm assuming they're taking advantage of the fact that these models share a design spec with military models, which both have the same flaws. I would assume the only difference is that the military model is full auto.

Edit: apparently not full auto, man we should have just let Glock take the contract when they started manufacturing in the US instead of Sig, their track record is much more sound.

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by wl on Friday August 29, 2025 @09:40AM (#45064010)
Sig's track record was just as sound as Glock's before the P320. The P226 was the Navy SEAL's sidearm of choice for a bit and it nearly became the standard sidearm for the US armed forces in the 1980s, narrowly losing out to the Beretta 92. The P210 is widely considered to be the most accurate service pistol ever created.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by 4MOAisgoodenuf on Friday August 29, 2025 @10:45AM (#45064829)
Sig Sauer Inc in Exeter, NH is a completely different company than SIG Sauer AG in Switzerland.

The Swiss Sig's have a sterling reputation. The P226 that entered the XM9 trials (against the Beretta 92) was imported from Switzerland by SAKO.

The US company didn't really start manufacturing until the 90s with the P229 and the Sig Pro series (where they were only tasked with making the plastic frames, not the more intricate lock work).

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by wl on Friday August 29, 2025 @11:03AM (#45065076)
If we're talking about Swiss SIGs, that'd be the P210 handgun and to a lesser extent, the SG 510 assault rifle. The P226s were always German SIGs (at least until SIG US got started), the "Montage Suisse" models being assembled in Switzerland from German parts rather than being the product of the Neuhausen factory.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by eoskx on Friday August 29, 2025 @10:46AM (#45064845)
That company structure is no longer quite the case. L&O Holdings (Germany-based holding company controlled by 2 German individuals) owns Sig Sauer USA, Sig Germany, and Sig Sauer AG.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by eoskx on Friday August 29, 2025 @09:29AM (#45063867)
Not even that - the only difference between the Sig M17/M18 handguns that the US Army uses and the consumer P320 is a manual safety. Otherwise, they are indistinguishable.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by justin66 on Friday August 29, 2025 @10:33AM (#45064662)
Consumer P320s, and Sig striker-fired pistols more generally, are generally available both with or without manual safeties.

Consumers can buy a civilian version of the M17 that's really difficult to distinguish from the Army's version (the safety's a different color, black instead of brown, or something like that).

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by lenerdenator on Friday August 29, 2025 @10:24AM (#45064560)
A manual safety that does not seem to prevent uncommanded discharges. Which is, y'know, part of the point of a safety.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by coldbrewed on Friday August 29, 2025 @10:30AM (#45064631)
Yep, the fact that the safety merely blocks the trigger and doesn't block the striker in case of accidental sear disengagement is horrifying.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by jibe on Friday August 29, 2025 @11:43AM (#45065570)
The M17/M18/P320 has a striker block, and you have to pull the trigger to disengage it.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by some_random on Friday August 29, 2025 @03:21PM (#45068276)
Not really, it doesn't have a firing pin block like every other striker fired handgun, it has a weird sear block thing from a hammer fired handgun because it's a shitty hack job conversion from the P250
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by jibe on Friday August 29, 2025 @11:51PM (#45071775)
The P320 does have a firing pin block. There is a lever that physically blocks the striker from moving. When you pull the trigger, the trigger bar lifts the lever, allowing the striker to move if the sear is also disengaged.

None of this is a sear block, or has anything to do directly with the sear. It will prevent the gun from firing if the sear were to fail.

You can see the lever in green in this animation:

https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex015/uploads/dd_dev/origina...

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by lazide on Friday August 29, 2025 @03:33PM (#45068386)
Notably, the FBI found it was entirely possible to disable the striker block without the trigger being pulled. A combination of wear, inadequate design, and loose manufacturing tolerances.

They couldn’t get it to fire uncommanded however, unless they bypassed the trigger.

However, they got the gun because it had gone off uncommanded in the holster - with witnesses - and no hands or anything else near it.

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by jibe on Saturday August 30, 2025 @06:10PM (#45078423)
FBI found it was entirely possible to disable the striker block without the trigger being pulled. A combination of wear, inadequate design, and loose manufacturing tolerances.

To disable the striker block, they removed the rear plate, applied pressure to lift the slide up and away from the grip, then stuck a punch into the back of the gun to manually release the sear. Maybe this is the beginning of discovering an issue with the striker block, but this isn't simulating a failure that could happen under normal circumstances (specifically jamming a punch in the back and releasing the sear).

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by lazide on Saturday August 30, 2025 @06:18PM (#45078485)
That is how they bypassed the trigger. The internal safety released when it should not and that is how they proved it.

How else do you want them to demonstrate an internal safety that was supposed to work was non-functional?

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by justin66 on Friday August 29, 2025 @10:32AM (#45064641)
> man we should have just let Glock take the contract when they started manufacturing in the US

One of the stated requirements for the updated pistol was a thumb-operated external safety. Glock's never been willing to manufacture a pistol with that feature, so they effectively excluded themselves from the competition.

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by dfc on Friday August 29, 2025 @09:37AM (#45063967)
Does any service in the world have a standard issue full auto handgun?
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by avidiax on Friday August 29, 2025 @09:53AM (#45064166)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_pistol

There are many that have adopted machine pistols for various uses, particularly special forces, VIP protection, and for the roles currently filled by PDWs, which means that common troops sometimes were issued them.

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by bluedino on Friday August 29, 2025 @10:04AM (#45064298)
Standard issue, probably not. But in use? Maybe sorta

The Glock 18 is a selective-fire variant of the Glock 17, developed at the request of the Austrian counter-terrorist unit EKO Cobra, and as a way to internally test Glock components under high strain conditions.

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by bob1029 on Friday August 29, 2025 @10:40AM (#45064760)
Something like an MP5 is going to be far more ergonomic in situations where one might find this kind of sidearm useful.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by dole on Friday August 29, 2025 @01:08PM (#45066699)
Would also be a lot cooler and reliable than putting anything more than two magazines through an 18C or 93R.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by dylan604 on Friday August 29, 2025 @09:59AM (#45064239)
what would be the point other than to just waste bullets?
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by Zigurd on Friday August 29, 2025 @10:10AM (#45064373)
Machine pistols have been sold for the purpose of being personal protection weapons for people who would only be lightly trained on the use of a handgun. Spray and pray is all you're going to get out of the user anyway.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by Wickedflickr on Friday August 29, 2025 @10:19AM (#45064485)
Machine pistols require far MORE training to use compared to a standard pistol. They are downright dangerous to use without proper training, both for the user and the people around them.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by calmbonsai on Friday August 29, 2025 @11:29AM (#45065399)
I don't know where to begin on this other than to say handling a full-auto handgun is far worse for untrained personnel than a semi-auto handgun. It's even a challenge for highly-trained personnel.

Additionally, the very long history of machine pistols would indicate the form-factor is a poor fit for the application of any full-auto fire.

This is the primary reason that personal defense weapons (PDWs) were developed in the first place.

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by someguydave on Friday August 29, 2025 @10:17AM (#45064460)
I could see that as being a useful role for a VIP protection team where you might not be able to carry larger guns for whatever reason but still want to designate some team members to suppress a potential attacker
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by t-3 on Friday August 29, 2025 @10:34AM (#45064664)
Full auto is just going to run through your ammo at the expense of accuracy, reliability, and maintenance time and costs. Nobody is going to be providing covering fire with a fully-auto machine pistol, the ammo capacity just isn't big enough (and then think about cooling and mechanism reliability when putting more than a dozen through a handgun). These things are for raids and assassinations, where collateral damage isn't a big deal but taking out the target is.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by lupusreal on Friday August 29, 2025 @11:46AM (#45065598)
That's nice "just so" theory, but is contradicted by the reality that the US Secret Service has been known to use concealed Uzi's, and presumably similar compact full auto weapons, in bodyguard roles.

someguydave is correct. Compact automatic weapons make sense for highly trained body guards protecting VIPs when discretion is considered important.

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by int_19h on Friday August 29, 2025 @05:42PM (#45069739)
Uzi is not a handgun however.

Compact automatic weapons still usually have either a stock (even the smallest Uzis do), or some other way to stabilize the gun while firing - e.g. the sling is used for this purpose with some MP5K variants.

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by lupusreal on Friday August 29, 2025 @06:20PM (#45070067)
IMO the most compelling machine pistols are those with small light weight folding stocks, not entirely unlike what what the Uzi had. Machine pistols could only be the optimal weapon if anything bigger wasn't an option, but my main point is that automatic weapons are considered relevant to VIP protection by the trained experts, contrary to the musings of internet commenters.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by someguydave on Thursday September 04, 2025 @06:22PM (#45132903)
Right. My understanding is that military doctrine is generally to immediately attack when encountering an ambush. Presumably, that will throw your attackers off their pre-planned attack and help you regain the initiative. So you want a big enough defending team such that you can immediately assault the attackers while also retreating with your VIP simultaneously. For the counter-assault team, you want to suppress the ambushers as quickly as possible (get their heads down), thus the automatic weapons.

As int_19h points out, there are special-purpose weapons made for this (see "personal defense weapons") and they are likely what pros carry.

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by int_19h on Friday August 29, 2025 @05:46PM (#45069781)
There are many better guns to fit this exact niche. HK& MP7 or B&T MP9, for example.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by someguydave on Thursday September 04, 2025 @06:13PM (#45132828)
yeah or the ye olde P90 I guess
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by TrippyAcidCats on Friday August 29, 2025 @10:08AM (#45064343)
Bullet volume is very important for suppression. Although the role of suppression usually is filled by a SAW rather than a MP.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by dylan604 on Friday August 29, 2025 @10:28AM (#45064607)
So once again, what would be the point for an auto handgun? You just said it's the wrong weapon for suppression. A 17 round mag fired in single rounds in quick succession would keep an opposing foe's head down longer than a 17 round mag in auto fire single trigger pull. Even pulling double tap style firing requires training/practice to keep both bullets accurate or else even that's wasteful
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by bombcar on Friday August 29, 2025 @11:22AM (#45065322)
Full-auto anything that isn’t a chaingun is basically a meme anyway, even for rifles and friends.

What is NOT a meme, and is useful, but counts as fully automatic, is three or five round burst mode.

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by lupusreal on Friday August 29, 2025 @11:49AM (#45065643)
I don't think you even know what a "chain gun" is. Where did you get this information from, reddit and video games?

Chainguns are a type of autocannon. Heavy, light and general purpose machine guns, like the M2 Browning, M249 SAW, Maxim, Been Gun, MG3, etc... none of these are chain guns. They aren't even all belt fed, which I guess is what you meant to say because I think that's the videogame midwit lingo. They are nonetheless universally accepted as being very valuable in combat.

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by dragonwriter on Friday August 29, 2025 @02:22PM (#45067664)
> Chainguns are a type of autocannon.

AIUI, chainguns are any externally electrically-actuated automatic weapons, including both single-barrelled and rotary designs, some of which are autocannons, and some of which are lighter (machine guns).

But, yeah, it makes more sense if GP intended to refer to belt-fed weapons, not actual chainguns.

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by int_19h on Friday August 29, 2025 @05:49PM (#45069820)
Most gun designs that included N-round burst have eventually abandoned it because full auto with operator in control of burst length turns out to be superior, while at the same time the mechanism needed to force the burst is an extra point of failure and negatively affects trigger pull .

Most recently, it was Russia dropping 2-round burst on AK-12 after experience with it in Ukraine. M4 is another famous historical example.

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by t-3 on Friday August 29, 2025 @10:26AM (#45064573)
You can hit your monthly training quota way quicker.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by SoftTalker on Friday August 29, 2025 @12:59PM (#45066590)
Not "standard issue" but a Glock with a switch is an example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock_switch

Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by some_random on Friday August 29, 2025 @03:21PM (#45068279)
No.
Re:Gun Maker Sig Sauer Citing National Security to Keep Docu... by int_19h on Friday August 29, 2025 @05:40PM (#45069716)
Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stechkin_automatic_pistol. AFAIK only still used as a PDW by combat pilots, everybody else switched to AKS74U. Based on what I heard from people who had a chance to fire it, the full auto mode is basically pointless, so it just ends up being a larger and heavier PM (ironically, it found some use in that latter role because it also means less recoil).