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Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by squigz on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @06:38AM (#44886764)
Why do we have to launch tens of thousands or even more satellites?
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by JonChesterfield on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @06:44AM (#44886808)
This internet fad seems to be hanging around and bandwidth is probably linear in satellite count.
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by jillesvangurp on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @06:59AM (#44886937)
There is no royal "we" that "has to" do anything. There's just groups of people and countries making use of a shared resource, LEO.

Your underlying question as to why some of those are launching satellites is much easier. They are apparently quite useful for things like communication, providing internet, etc. And people are willing to pay for that kind of stuff. It's not more complicated than that.

Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by literalAardvark on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @07:27AM (#44887134)
As others have said, because it's a key military capability.

Humanity is what humanity is, not what we wish it'd be, so key military capabilities need to be developed or you get razed by the guy who did develop them. Doubly so now that we've rediscovered that culture is much more resilient than we'd thought, and that different people want Earth to look in different ways.

Do we all wish we'd stop ecological collapse instead? Yeah. But it's not going to happen so it's irrelevant.

Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by throwaway290 on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @07:13AM (#44887027)
If we had a trusted powerful peacekeeper with a track record then we wouldn't need to. But now that masks are off everybody is busy launching dual purpose sats and whoever launches the least can literally get nuked from orbit if they don't do whatever the guy with more sats wants.

Then whoever has the most sats will say "that's it guys, LEO is full and you need our approval to launch more" and if someone raises a stink you guessed it, they can get nuked from orbit

Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by myrmidon on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @08:30AM (#44887645)
There are no kinetic NOR nuclear orbital strike capabilities for anyone right now, nor is anyone really working on it either, because it just makes zero sense (primarily because suborbital launches achieve the exact same outcome for a tiny fraction of the cost).
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by m4rtink on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @12:13PM (#44890376)
You could have ballistic missile interceptors in orbit, standing by: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brilliant_Pebbles
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by galangalalgol on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @08:43AM (#44887766)
Wouldn't having them already up give a lot less warning in a first strike situation? Also redundancy if all your subs, silos, and bomber bases got hit first by their satellites. It doesn't even have to be rational though, combinations of graft and brinkmanship would be enough. It seems really optimistic to think they haven't all already done this.
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by myrmidon on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @09:30AM (#44888208)
> Wouldn't having them already up give a lot less warning in a first strike situation?

Improved first strike capability is worthless íf it isn't crippling, and "devastating enough" first strike capability from orbit is completely unaffordable, and impossible to build up unobserved.

Being in orbit is a hindrance more than anything, really, because maintenance becomes ruinously expensive, everything is trivially observable for all your adversaries and you have to align the orbit with your target beforehand, too (which, again, everyone can observe).

> It doesn't even have to be rational though, combinations of graft and brinkmanship would be enough.

Enough for what? Threatening to nuke some satellites? Because anything else you can do easier, cheaper and on a larger scale from the ground. Why would you bother with nuclear warheads in space when you can just build/maintain like 10 ICBM silos for the same cost?

Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @10:02AM (#44888583)
> Wouldn't having them already up give a lot less warning in a first strike situation?

From GEO, no. From LEO, still probably no.

There may be a bird positioned just right so a small deörbit burn pots Moscow quicker than an ICBM could. But the moment you start burning, you’re caught. (Same as an ICBM.) And unless you have a really obvious orbital configuration that bunches a bunch of birds in a way useful for practically nothing but such a strike, you only get one or two such “early” shots before a wall of ICBMs would have landed.

Nukes in space aren’t about nuking the ground from space. It’s about space area denial through EMP.

Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by axus on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @10:37AM (#44889033)
Here's a fun snippet from Wikipedia's anti-satellite weapon page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-satellite_weapon#Soviet_U...

"Elements within the Soviet space industry convinced Leonid Brezhnev that the Shuttle was a single-orbit weapon that would be launched from Vandenberg Air Force Base, manoeuvre to avoid existing anti-ballistic missile sites, bomb Moscow in a first strike, and then land. Although the Soviet military was aware these claims were false, Brezhnev believed them and ordered a resumption of [satellite destroyer] testing along with a Shuttle of their own."

Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by m4rtink on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @12:21PM (#44890466)
The exact claim might have been false, but at least i theory it could do this maneuver from orbit - e.g. during a regular space hab or satellite lunch mission it could dipp into the atmosphere, do a rapid oebit inclination chang using its wings, then boost back to orbit using the OMS. Next thing it would deliver the "totally science experiments" on the way to their targets once comming over the horizon. Maybe it could then even do the manuever again to either regain the old orbit parameters ir at least reach a more surivable random other one.
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @06:57PM (#44894862)
> at least i theory it could do this maneuver from orbit

Nukes from LEO aren't impossible. They're just impossible to do better than the current triad. Any breakthrough in propulsion that would make a plane change easier or less visible confers the same advantages to an ICBM. There is a narrow window in which orbital nuking can outperform, and that's almost entirely taken care of--and exceeded, in stealth--by SLBMs.

Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by throwaway290 on Thursday August 14, 2025 @02:12AM (#44897242)
Nuking from orbit was not literal. The point of sats is intercepting. Sats allow you to nuke the other guy while intercepting his rockets. Same result...
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday August 14, 2025 @03:19AM (#44897656)
> The point of sats is intercepting. Sats allow you to nuke the other guy while intercepting his rockets

Space-based missile defence is not what’s implied by weapons that are “already up” and thus “give a lot less warning in a first strike situation?”

Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by notahacker on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @09:31AM (#44888213)
> Wouldn't having them already up give a lot less warning in a first strike situation

No. Your missiles have further to fly from geostationary orbit than a missile silo on the ground, not to mention the additional complexity of designing your ICBM for reentry

Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by throwaway290 on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @10:11AM (#44888691)
It's a figure of speech, sats have been used many times to intercept missiles, for spy purposes etc
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by TimorousBestie on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @08:44AM (#44887774)
“nuked from orbit” is an ancient meme from Aliens (1986); it’s not meant to be taken literally.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nuke+it+from...

Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by mlindner on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @06:43AM (#44886803)
"We" don't have to launch anything at all. SpaceX needs to launch enough satellites to satisfy customer demand for their constellation. In general the trend actually is that SpaceX is launching fewer but larger satellites (initially they were doing 60 satellites per launch, but they made them larger and now launch 24-28 satellites depending on the orbit inclination.
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by XorNot on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @06:59AM (#44886939)
If you think the internet is a big deal, you haven't run into how happy the military is to have high bandwidth low-latency communications anywhere on the planet.

Starlink is nothing compared to the value Starshield provides, and the civilian product drives costs down.

With drone warfare being the next thing, the US probably can't afford to not have a company running a major LEO ISP.

Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by jocaal on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @06:59AM (#44886935)
Why do we need radio telescopes. Satellite communications are infinitely more useful for people on earth than some research papers about things light-years away
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by kevindamm on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @07:16AM (#44887055)
Ironically, those satellites would not be able to communicate effectively without the understanding of relativity that was obtained by looking at things light-years away.
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by jocaal on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @08:06AM (#44887414)
Einstein developed relativity from mathematical reasoning. A major influence was the michaelson morley experiment, which was solely done on earth. Relativity was developed in the early 1900's and the first radio telescope was made in the 1930's. Also, orbital mechanics uses mostly Newtonian mechanics and the communication of satellites is radio waves which were understood way before einstein. There is no relativity involved. Literally everything you said is factually incorrect.
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by sidewndr46 on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @08:17AM (#44887515)
Einstein developed a theory that includes General relativity and special relativity. Experimental results confirms both of them, with special relativity being the easiest one to understand the consequences of. Without experimental confirmation, neither theory would be valuable.
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by kevindamm on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @09:40AM (#44888327)
Satellites experience time dilation because of their orbital velocity and gravitational field being significantly different at their altitude. Without accounting for this, the clock drift would become unmanageable and Newtonian models are insufficient to correct for it.

You're right that the majority of Einstein's theories were ultimately thought experiments but getting the parameters correct involved a lot of measurements and experimenting, to get to where tech like GPS and StarLink can be accurate. We were also looking at far away stars for centuries before Einstein so that he could have the environment for his ideas to be discussed, which I was including in my phrasing "looking at things light-years away."

I wasn't saying it to start an argument, though. I wanted to counter the rather dismal view of "why do we need radio telescopes."

Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by madeforhnyo on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @09:44AM (#44888375)
Communication requires accurate timing. Time dilation occurs between Earth and satellites, a phenomenon that isn't part of Newton mechanics, so relativity is indeed involved.
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by voxlax on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @08:42AM (#44887757)
Yes, but if it hadn't been for the efforts of visionary scientists at NASA trying to reach the stars, there would be no means of putting those satellites into orbit.
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by brookst on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @09:34AM (#44888250)
This is the but I don’t see the relevance. Is there an argument / position there or just an observation?
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by flufluflufluffy on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @10:22AM (#44888832)
The point is basic science (e.g. radio astronomy) is, if not necessary, then highly desirable, because it can lead to unimaginable advancements in humanity (or in a country’s technological and military capabilities if that’s how you think).
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by brookst on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @11:18AM (#44889603)
Sure, and industry is also valuable and contributes to progress. I don’t think it’s useful to say one must always take priority over the other regardless of specifics.
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by flufluflufluffy on Thursday August 14, 2025 @10:45AM (#44901015)
I don’t think that’s useful either and nobody said that.
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by dylan604 on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @01:07PM (#44891047)
> Why do we need radio telescopes.

Because they provide data that other types of telescopes do not. We have X-ray telescopes. We have infrared telescopes. We have optical telescopes. Also as a bonus, for ground based radio telescopes, we can use them 24/7 instead of waiting for nighttime.

Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by sneak on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @10:00AM (#44888556)
Because the speed of light is slow and orbital mechanics can’t be changed.

To have internet everywhere you need to either accept bad latency (300-500ms round trip) or have closer satellites, which means they’re moving faster, which means you need more of them.

Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by wang_li on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @01:03PM (#44891005)
You should also ask why do we have to do this particular research? Both parties are impacting this particular band of the spectrum. One by excluding others and the other by radiating in those frequencies.
Re:Nearly 1 in 3 Starlink satellites detected within the SKA... by dylan604 on Wednesday August 13, 2025 @04:38PM (#44893556)
Excluding others only in a way that is not dissimilar to you locking your doors/windows to exclude others from freely entering your house.

Yes, some of the premiere radio observatories have radio transmission exclusion zones around them, but they are also typically away from that exclusion zone impacting as few as possible. Starlink on the other hand is not attempting to do anything of the sort. It would be interesting of Starlink could respect a geofence kind of idea so that they stop broadcasting when over certain areas, especially since they do this over geopolitically exclusion zones.