It's worth noting, according to the article, the law gives school officials leeway to allow kids to use their phones in some circumstances. So, the law doesn't stop any of the use cases you've listed.
The last one doesn't require a cell phone, since the school has phone lines. But it's certainly more convenient to let her use her own phone than have 20 kids in line at the office every morning calling their parents.
> It's worth noting, according to the article, the law gives school officials leeway to allow kids to use their phones in some circumstances. So, the law doesn't stop any of the use cases you've listed.
Somewhat my bad.. but I was responding to thread's content and title.
- The article says "[Finland approved] a law that restricts the use of mobile devices by pupils at primary and secondary schools"
- The title of the thread says "bans smartphones in schools".. which is not at ALL what they did; they banned _use_ of smartphones in schools _without permission_.
And what I said was that my daughter brings her phone to school; she doesn't use it there unless there's a good reason (like I noted).
Yes they could for years NYC schools banned cellphones in schools which ment kids could not bring them in the building at all. Kids left their phones with nearby bodegas or in a van parked outside the school for a small fee. Basically a coat check for phones. This worked perfectly well and required zero effort on the part of the administration.
I am pretty sure that no one would know if she just puts it on silent or airplane mode? But in any case my son's class did that for several months in 7th grade, due to an incident (minor but on the worrisome side) and with the agreement of the parents, and it was just fine.
> have 20 kids in line at the office every morning calling their parents.
Maybe next time they will put more attention and in the meanwhile they'll share or borrow what's needed?
They are not good reasons to have a phone at school.
In terms of QOL: there is a meaningful body of research about the impact of giving a teenage girl access to a phone on their quality of life.
https://adc.bmj.com/content/109/7/576 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S245195882...
If you want to prevent the negative effects of social media and (designed to be) addictive apps, then you should ban social media and addictive apps, and not phones (because that would just mask the symptoms).
But I'm open to compromise: let's give children bring dumb phones that can only call and text.
Smart phones when class is in session is a distraction and should be banned. However outside of class they are helpful.
We have forgotten that boredom is okay.
so, the finnish don't prohibit that at all.
Per the article this is a ban on using smartphones during class time, not a ban on bringing them to school at all.
That seems pretty reasonable to me. When I was in school if a teacher saw you using phone during class you might get one warning and then it was being confiscated.
The endless rationalizing of why kids need to have phones at every moment rings hollow...
Because grade school kids actually did just fine without them.
Things functioned, people got where they needed to get, emergencies were handled, etc.
Especially with pre- and post-school access, we're balancing a minimum of in-school utility against a massive danger to learning and development.
We should just accept we built addiction boxes and therefore restrict them appropriately.
If they're in class, then 99% chance it's distracting them from learning. If they're not, I think personal autonomy is a good rule.
Having a distraction box at hand slows that process.
Grade school kids aren't tiny adults: they're actively building the pieces that make them into adults (self control, emotional regulation, empathy, cooperation, etc).
I don't trust Google or Apple to sacrifice profits, at scale, to support those goals.
Once again, for the people not paying attention. It's not about _need_. It's about quality of life. It's about easier, faster, better, safer.
Are there negatives to having cell phones? Sure. That's true for adults, too. And the benefits of having a cell phone need to be weighed against those negatives.
But saying "you don't _need_ a cell phone" is a straw man argument. Because nobody (that I see) says it's needed; they said it's worth it.
Oh, "need" is definitely the first-reach in these discussions. You should see Florida school parents go apeshit at the prospect of not being tethered to their little angels 24x7.
Granted, on HN, it does trend towards worth.
But imho that's looking at smartphones with rose-colored glasses. As people in the industry, you think we'd have more realpolitik perspectives about what modern smartphones are designed to do -- grab, hold, and monetize attention.
We raise kids mostly without screens (just some short old school cartoons on TV before bed if they behave well). Its harder, but kids behave much better compared to most peers (which can have 1000s of reasons and some out of our control, I know). We also limit sweet stuff, eat tons of veggies (so they do too and ie love broccoli, not sure where the proverbial hate comes from... maybe lack of basic cooking skills?). But the key is we eat same stuff, healthy food can be very tasty easily. We lay them down to sleep pretty early too.
Simply restrict highly addictive stuff, be it in food or behavioral like screens. It has no place when growing up, no matter how folks wrap it as a need. It forms neural pathways that are extremely hard to shed for rest of their lives, no need to fuck them up properly for life before they have a chance to forge their own path and make their own choices.
Okay, it did work out, but not nearly as well as a simple cell phone. Smart phones add additional functionality. (I can see on google maps where each kid's phone is)
Seems like a good trade to me.
Now there are other downsides of smartphones. We do need to mitigate them. However lets not throw out the good just because of the bad.
I do take your point though, this is probably the most reasonable, sane position:
> We do need to mitigate them. However lets not throw out the good just because of the bad.
Lots of problems are solved in MUCH better ways now that we have smartphones. It's not about "can we do it", it's about "can we do it better / easier".
Breaking down on the side of the road is completely different than being without a cellphone in a building full of landlines. It's disingenuous to compare the two situations. Breaking down on the side of the road is pretty much the impetus for portable communication systems. A kid being able to just text mom that they need a ride after school is convenient but not really critical enough to justify letting kids have their phones on them all day long.
even all the above reasons are not actual reasons. None of these are a problem. you job is NOT to bring something to school because she forgot it nor to drive her to school if the bus doesnt show up.
No, it's not my job. But it is my job as a parent to make her life easier where it makes sense (when it's not to impactful to my other responsibilities). And dropping off her computer so that she can participate in class does that (and makes her day in school more productive). And picking her up at the bus stop so she doesn't need to walk 5-10 minutes home, or 15-20 minutes to school... is a nice thing to do.
It seems like everyone in this thread against cell phones is arguing from the point of "well, you don't NEED this". It's not about need, it's about better.
I fundamentally disagree that making life easy is the right thing.
what I am trying to say is, the feedback loop from a) forgetting something or b) the experience of missing out on something because of aspects of life that are out of ones control is so much better IMO and the phone is just 'convenient'
Of course that doesnt mean I prefer my child to be run over or die instead of protecting her/him or helping her/him
Yes. I was discussing things from the thread's title and the arguments in the thread that phones aren't useful at school. The actual action that Finland is taking (Children aren't allowed to use cellphones at school without permission, effectively) is reasonable. But it's also not what the title of this thread says.
2) The entire list can be equally well solved by dumbphones without TikTok and Snapchat. Which is what such bans as this is about.
3) It is always about pros/cons. In Scandinavia phones have (in my view as a parent and married to a teacher) essentially destroyed education wherever they are allowed in the pocket/backpack of the student during class.
Not to speak about downsides to social life. E.g., people not attempting dancing in high school proms because there are videos taken everywhere. People not showering in gyms due to phones. Just two examples. SO MANY things are killed by the phones.
The benefits have to be weighed against the quite massive downsides.
--
They banned phones on the high school where my wife teaches last year and she is basically a changed person. Instead of spending 50% of class time policing phone use, she can, you know, actually teach.
(She still has to deal with a generation addicted to dopamine, but a habit of phone confiscation during class is at least a massive improvement.)
The thing is: these benefits manifest at different time-scales.
I see no problem here.
2. I'm not buying my daughter a 2nd dumb phone to bring to school with her.
"Bring it but don't use it (or leave it in your locker)" is a reasonable answer to me (and is actually what Finland is doing).
When I went to school the bus turned up every single day without fail. We've learnt to accept less because you can just call a taxi.
> - If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time
We had public payphones that we could use. We've learnt to accept less because everyone has a mobile phone.
> - If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it
I remembered to bring what I needed every day or I suffered the consequences. I soon learnt. We've become complacent because you can just get it delivered using your phone.
All in all I don't really see how it's a positive, but it certainly seems to have considerable negatives.
She can call from where she goes after school, no? Or she can go home first, or make plans a day ahead.
She can learn the consequences of not packing her school bags properly and keep a checklist to review each morning. The only time I recall in 12 years of primary schooling, where I had to get something from home after forgetting, was a prop for a demonstration in front of the class. I remember because it was the only time it mattered.
I am not familiar with your specifics, I don't mean to be personal. And I don't have kids. But I am young enough to remember being one - I am also addicted to my phone, and I know how convenient it is to not plan anything and to instantly communicate with everyone. But I am unconvinced that children in a controlled, supervised environment need a phone.
...finally, if I did agree and say "yeah they should at least be allowed to have a phone on their way", it should absolutely be banned in the classroom. But what to do when the children inevitably break that rule? It doesn't sound like you would support them confiscating it, and it's a logistical quagmire to do so anyway.
Curious what this will lead to.
When she'll get a job, if she'll forget her laptop at home, will she call you and ask you to bring it to the workplace?
Could she get by at school without her computer? Yes. Is her school day more productive with it? Also yes.
I’ve done similar for friends and family.
For most kids, the embarrassment of a parent appearing during the school day is enough to really negatively enforce forgetting things, at least after middle school starts.
"What about emergencies?? What about when you need to phone someone about X, or phone someone else because Y happened?"
It's a good argument - the typical phone in 1998 was a useful and practical device. Seriously, being able to ring people has many excellent and real use cases. Phones aren't just calling devices anymore, though.
Smartphones, no. I'm not subjecting them to any algos, thank you very much.
- If he bus doesn't show up, she can call and ask us to come drive her to school
- If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time
- If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it
- etc, etc, etc
There's a ton of reasons for her to have her phone on her. Enough so that, when she gets punished with phone removal, we generally still let her bring it to school.
The fact that the phone doesn't contribute to the schooling itself (although it does when she forgets something she needs for school) doesn't mean that it doesn't contribute to QOL overall by being with her at school.