> the goal should be to ensure that anyone who wants to do a thing can, with as few third party requirements as possible.

This is a good starting point, but if you have no barriers then you get abuse problems which is why email is terrible. I remember being horrified in the 90s about attempts to charge 1 cent per email. Now I long for a world where that actually happened.

You're paying that cent, but in the form of endless ads hijacking your consciousness.

you can still do some setup and access mail by using applications like thunderbird, which have no ads.

Or use an adblocker

Ironically, the amount of effort I expend dealing with spam from the postal service is much larger than the amount of effort I expend dealing with email.

I’m pretty sure I spend less than 5 minutes a week dealing with physical spam mail. I have a recycling bin right next to where the mail arrives and most days are 15 seconds of “these go into that bin unopened” and sometimes I have to open an envelope and glance at it to see if it’s something relevant to me.

Even with the best spam filtering on email, I’m well over 5 minutes a week of distraction from it.

And now imagine how easy dealing with email spam would be if the marginal fiscal cost was not 0 like physical spam. All the technology and tools available and less than 1% of the viable spam surface area

> is universally accessible by design

I disagree. It requires taking time out of business hours, and they don't pay you your salary while you line up multiple times for 30 minutes each. I've sometimes had to line up for 2 hours total (4 times) just to mail one thing. Once to ask "how do i mail this", once to ask for a pen (couldn't cut the line because a Karen wouldn't let me), once because I filled the wrong form, etc. Typical USPS experience

I mean it is the fallback method. The solution for the "I never heard of this internet thing, or something else is preventing me from finding the licence online" problem.

Almost everyone will just use their search engine to find this page: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.en.html

What can you do to serve the licence to those who can't or won't do that (for whatever reason)? I think it is hard to find something more universally accessible to serve that edge case.

You describe your story of how sending a letter went to you, and I admit it sounds like a bit of a pain. But you managed to do it. And by the sound of it you were totally novice at it. (didn't even bring your own pen!) Someone can do the same thing you did anywhere from Nairobi, McMurdo, Pyongyang, or Vigánpetend.

It is not "universally accessible" in the "easy and comfortable" sense. It is "universally accessible" in the "almost anywhere where humans live you can access this service" sense.

I mean, part of the problem is I didn't own a pen at the time.

I have multiple computers and phones, I thought that was the interface to the post-2000 world.

I do have paint, but that's a little clumsy.

I grudgingly own a box of BIC pens now, but ... It's like requiring people to own a horse to do something these days. And in past experience during school days, those goddamn BIC pens all go bad (ink dries up or something), before I use even 5% of one of them.

I realize this all probably sounds very silly to someone born before 1980 but ... yeah it's just the reality of the world, I don't normally need pens to do anything, and am used to pens being provided in the rare occasions I need to sign a receipt or something, and usually I just end up drawing a cat on the signature line.

Oh, i absolutely get you! Was not intending to pen-shame you in any way. Just used it to illustrate that the postal process worked (eventually, and with a lot of inconvenience) even though you were not best prepared for it.

But i have been exactly where you are. We were having a book club and trying to vote on the next book to read, and turns out none of us out of twenty literature loving people had a single pen on us. So yeah, that is for sure the current reality.

> usually I just end up drawing a cat on the signature line.

Thats awesome! Do the they accept it usually?

Yes! I've never had an issue -- in the US at least, signatures on receipts generally don't matter. Cat sketches are usually fine.

The only place I've had it mattered is when signing bank documents in Asia.

> I realize this all probably sounds very silly to someone born before 1980

I was born after 1980 and I think you're beating a dead horse, here. You're conflating accessibility with convenience. Not just with this comment, but others you've made in this thread.

> those goddamn BIC pens all go bad (ink dries up or something), before I use even 5% of one of them.

Grab the pen by the end opposite the nib, give it a good shake for a few seconds, lick the nib, scribble on a scrap piece of paper until it starts writing again. Problem solved. You can't resurrect a dead laptop or computer by licking and shaking it (at least I've never succeeded in doing so).

Bravo! I cannot tell if this is a satire of something. Can some explain the joke, if any?

Your life sounds positively exhausting.

You are intentionally making things difficult when you don't own a pen.

That's very much your problem, and the rest of the world doesn't need to accommodate it.

When paper and pen was invented, I'm sure there was a bearded caveman holding a fish who made a comment about how it was someone's problem that they didn't have a tool to carve stone tablets.

Paper is on its way out, electrons are the new medium.

Do you realise that this is the exact same positions as people who refuse to use a computer or a phone on principle? Ranting about having to use a pen is not being hip or modern, it’s being obnoxious.

When paper was invented, it was expensive to make, and very few people had access to it. It was basically confined to a small priesthood and most people were illiterate. Paper remained quite expensive for centuries.

So it would've been pretty rich for someone to say, "talking to these illiterate peasants to their faces is on its way out. Don't they know that writing is the new medium?"

> I mean, part of the problem is I didn't own a pen at the time.

I find this mind-boggling.

I immediately came up with a parallel -- "they wanted me to walk to the counter but I do not own shoes."

Which took me to the universe of Pixar's _Wall-E_ and now I can't help but imagine that the subset of "people born after 1980" are helpless in their floating chairs and apparently I am aberrant because I learned to walk, and that makes me old.

> those goddamn BIC pens all go bad (ink dries up or something), before I use even 5% of one of them.

No, the ink does not dry. What happens is that the ball gets stuck if it is used too infrequently. This is solved by rubbing it against paper, or even better something rubbery. The underside of most people’s shoes works well for this. Just last week I used a Bic that was at least 30 years old. These things are very dependable.

If you're talking about packages via USPS, you can use print + pay & drop boxes for anything that fits.

https://www.usps.com/ship/online-shipping.htm

If you're talking about letters, the innumerable blue drop boxes.

I find it hard to believe that waiting two hours is normal for customers of the USPS. You can order stamps online, they have (collection) postboxes and even offer a pick-up service for parcels. At $0.73 to send a letter anywhere in the USA, that sounds like a pretty impressive offering to me.

> I find it hard to believe that waiting two hours is normal for customers of the USPS.

GP said postal services are "universally accessible". So first, it doesn't matter is it's "normal", it matters if it happens at all. And USPS does not represent postal mail universally - I have never even seen a USPS building in my life and don't expect to. Is postal mail as universally accessible to a homeless man in Laos and a 5-year-old kid in rural India? I think it's ludicrous to claim that postal mail is "universally accessible" and displays a huge Western bias.

It's lining up multiple times. When I walk in with a box, I don't know how the hell to mail it, what to fill out, what the pricing vs. delivery ETA grid is so I can decide where I want to position myself on that curve, the different forms you need to fill to be on different parts of that curve.

I usually end up screwing it up a few times in the process too. I didn't realize that the free boxes they give you are only for 2 day service (and doesn't work for 1 day or 3 day). 1 day is a different box, 3 day is bring-your-own-box.

The pens they provide don't work, you have to line up to get a pen. You have to line up to ask a question. The workers are grumpy, the people in line are grumpy, I've had the experience that sometimes nobody will let you cut anything even if it's just for a pen or a piece of tape.

Oh and they charge you if you ask for more than about X of tape. It's a tricky dance. I think X is about 20cm. If you ask for 30cm, they will refuse even the 20cm and ask you to buy 300cm, which entails getting in the 30 minute line again (so the actual cost of the tape is 0.5 * your hourly consulting rate, so if you're a software engineer paid $100/hour of stocks and $100/hour of equity, that'll be a $50 roll of tape plus $30 of stock assumimng Trump just announced more tariffs). If you ask for 15cm, they might give you 20cm for free. It's tricky. I wish there were a sign that said "free tape: <=20cm" or whatever the actual number is, in front of each employee's desk.

Which reminds me, the actual number also seems depends on the mood of the USPS employee, so you also need to carefully watch your position in line so that you try to get yourself in front of the happiest employee. If the grumpiest employee is almost done with their previous customer, you have to fake needing to fix something really quick and let someone ahead of you in the line so that they get the grumpy one and you get the happy one. Or you can try to estimate the processing time of the few people ahead of you in line by eyeballing the complexity of shipping whatever they are holding, and time your place in line to be in front of the happiest employee when it gets to you. That way you are more likely to get more free tape to seal your box.

You also need to think about how to keep them happy. That usually involves some small talk. More small talk gets you more tape. Weather is a good safe topic on the east coast, because you can commiserate the bad weather with the USPS employee, but in California the weather is always good, so it doesn't make for good small talk, and the USPS employee might be at risk of going from happy to grumpy because they'd rather be outside.

If you have this much difficulty mailing a package I think your consulting rate should be a lot more than $200 an hour.

Shipping quotes are trivial to get online. It's also easy to print shipping with pirateship.

USPS picks up packages for free with your regular delivery.

This is some other issue, perhaps untreated executive dysfunction.

I have seen people struggling to complete tasks at post offices and banks, queuing multiple times unnecessarily, being afraid of choosing the wrong options but not doing any research, etc. They don’t take the basic steps that the others in line do to make their visit work.

I find your experience at the post office weirdly fascinating. Yeah, I am a strange guy.

The task is sending a letter, not a parcel.

You buy the stamps (from the post office, another shop with opening hours you prefer, or online), sick one on the envelope and put it in a mailbox.

Overcomplicating everything so you can grumble on the internet isn't required.

It's like the classic argument about IRC vs Discord. IRC is more convoluted to use, the clients are subpar, you need to set up a BNC to receive messages when offline, but Discord requires you to give up your phone number.

Some people find IRC less accessible, but I find having a phone number that I'm willing to give to a third party is a much more difficult requirement.

Don't forget the next part: whenever you point out that Discord requires you to give them your phone number, hundreds of Agent Smiths appear in the replies to say that actually you don't. Who are we to believe - the repliers, or our own lying eyes?

(The Agent Smith effect is something conspiracy theorists made up to explain why every time they show off their conspiracy theory in public, every single person around them suddenly gains the same opinion of them. I'm using it humourously)

The explanation is pretty simple: The most fervent users of discord also have overlap with the longest users of discord, and their account age and usage patterns means that discord's risk systems have never demanded a phone number from them.

> Who are we to believe - the repliers, or our own lying eyes?

Believe the repliers: I created an account in May 2024 and I have not added a phone number. Here's a screenshot from my settings: https://imgur.com/a/Q7kJpDv

But also, your eyes aren't lying to you: some servers require accounts to have confirmed phone number in order to join. So there is probably a lot of people who have had the experience of creating a Discord account, trying to join a server / accept an invite, and immediately seeing a "you must provide a phone number" prompt.

A common mistake in accessibility is to assume accessibility is mostly for users who are blind. I've rarely seen the opposite approach, calling something accessible that is very much not accessible to a person who is blind. A url is much more accessible for many people with disabilities than the postal mail.

Even if you mean access instead of accessibility, presumably a person who can find a way to acquire stamps can just as easily make it to a library with public computers.

accessibility: the quality of being able to be entered or used by everyone, including people who have a disability

> Postal mail, for all its faults, is universally accessible by design

I think it's important to note that this isn't actually true. For a lot of homeless people or people who move often postal mail isn't as good. Online communication is actually more universal. Most (all?) public libraries have computers now.

Not sure if this works in other countries, but here in the Netherlands, homeless folks can get a postal address at municipal offices. People who move can set up (albeit paid) mail forwarding for up to a year.

Other than that, there’s good old ‘poste restante’, in which you can supposedly address mail to any post office and they’ll hold it for the recipient (even internationally), although I’ve never tried this.

(I appreciate that not everyone may actually know about these options, though.)

I wonder if any post offices have digital post box services to open, digitise, email and incinerate any incoming letters.

Physical mail isn't difficult, even now, for anyone with a modicum of competence. I can understand if someone hasn't used physical mail before, but it's very easy to look up how to send a letter + buy envelopes and stamps. If someone cannot do that without difficulty, they really need to work on their basic life skills.

Buying a stamp in the home country is doable for most people. But even then, imagine you are 20, how many mails do you think will you have sent?

For a different country, I'd have no idea. Especially if it's so far away like the USA and I can't locally get a special reply post stamp. What I would have done is to put in 5€ in the envelope and call it a day. The person would probably be happy seeing other money.

His difficulty was finding postage stamps for the self-addressed return envelope, and clearly the author is not American. Do you think it would be quite so easy to "buy envelopes and stamps" if you had to send a stamped return envelope to Nepal or Manila? Is that a "basic life skill" or would you have to do a little research to figure out what you'd need?

He had difficulty writing an address on an envelope.

This skill is something we expect of 8 year old children.

Maybe we used to. When sending letters was still a thing people did.

Nowadays, not really. I had a similar experience - the first (well, first in a few years) time I had to send mail was this year for my taxes, and I ended up having to buy another envelope from the post office because I mixed up the delivery address and return address.

I sympathize strongly with the author. I write with a pen so infrequently (years between handwriting) that I often have handwriting errors that displease me.

So I usually do some practice writing on scratch paper before attempting the final version.

Notice he said "printing the address would have taken less time". That doesn't sound like the issue was formatting or knowledge. It reads to me as the physical skill of penmanship.

How is that possible? I write things literally every day. Everyone I know does so. How do you go a literal year without picking up a pen?

Aside for signing my signature (which I almost never need to do anymore) then the only time I need to handwrite is to fill out forms, usually for medical purposes, and I don't go to the doctor every year (yes, I recognize this is unwise).

If I have time I prefer to scan forms and fill them out with a computer.

All my text generation is digital using either a keyboard or touchscreen.

At various points, I've gone years at a stretch without using a pen -- except maybe to scribble my signature on a paycheck or something. I just never encountered anything that required using one during those times.

It's not very far-fetched -- especially for regions where paper checks became outdated long ago, like my European friends have told me has been the case there since the Earth cooled.

So how, specifically?

These days, I get paid electronically. I pay my bills online. I bought some Forever stamps and mailing envelopes once about 5 years ago, but I haven't had any reason yet to use any of them. If I have to send out a package, I'm using a service like PirateShip and printing a self-adhesive label to keep it consistent with other packages. My work is usually done with a computer -- and when it is more hands-on, then it's usually work that doesn't imply writing anything at all.

When I want to take a quick note, I use my pocket supercomputer. For longer notes and correspondence, I use a real computer. If I need to draw a diagram to share with others, I'll probably be sharing it with them electronically so I produce that diagram electronically from the start.

I did use a pen the other day to draw a napkin sketch of a wiring diagram for some changes I want to make in my garage. AFAIK, I only have 1 working pen at home. I knew exactly where to find it; it was sitting in the last place I used it, about 3 months ago.

But now I'm inclined to reproduce that diagram electronically so I can easily move elements around and label it all clearly (so I can formulate a complete plan and spend more of my time doing the work instead of thinking about it once I get up on a ladder in the dark), so drawing it on paper may have been just a duplication of effort.