Sourcehut
> Startpage uses Google's index.
If they have enough users/make enough money, they'll make their own. Ecosia and Qwant (both european search engines) are working together to make their own index.
In any case, even if a european is a proxy for an american service, you need to prove that there is a market for an european equivalent for change to happen.
Is it there yet?
> Notice: sr.ht is currently in alpha, and the quality of the service may reflect that. As such, payment is currently optional for most features, and only encouraged for users who want to support the ongoing development of the site. For a summary of the guarantees and limitations that the alpha entails, see this reference.
Would I run the git server of a multi-national bank on it? Probably not. A standard SAAS? Yeah if my team felt it was important to use EU companies.
Otherwise you could also self-host with a VM, then you can use gitea or gitolite with systemd oneshot services.
"There might be an option in the future if there are sufficient users" is a quite different milestone compared to fully switching away from US-based services.
If
Time and time again, data-sharing agreements between the EU and the US get busted, showing there's just no legal compatibility between EU privacy rights and US spying laws. [...] With the current political situation in the US, it's also starting to become clear that our entire digital infrastructure is at the mercy of US policies. It is no longer safe to rely on US clouds for our governments and societies, as the US government can shut it down at will.
are your worries, rolling out government-required backdoors, lockouts, etc. in operating systems is going to be a huge issue. To shut down a large portion of Europe's infrastructure, the US government only has to order three companies to do so.
China is probably much more aggressive in this than Europe as for them the US has been a rival (or even enemy) for a long time.
SEARCH: qwant (france)
LLM: mistral (france), librechat.ai, openwebui
VPN: mullvad (sweden), protonVPN (swiss)
AUTH: OpenID (sadly seems like not many sevices implement it)
CLOUD: Hetzner (germany), OVHCloud (france)
MAPS: here wego, openstreetmap
EMAIL: protonMail (swiss), fastmail (australia)
DNS: mullvad (sweden), quand9 (swiss), nextDNS
TRANSLATE: DeepL (germany)
BROWSER: zen-browser, vivaldi (norway)
SOCIAL: nostr, mastadon (germany)
IM: elements (uk), matrix (uk)
EDIT: correction that fastmail is australian
> Our colocation providers could be compelled to give physical access to our servers. Network capturing devices could be installed. And in the worst case an attacker could simply force their way into the datacentre and physically remove our servers.
So as far as warrantless surveillance is concerned, Fastmail is no better than if it were a US company or subsidiary thereof. They may themselves not be in a position where they would have to comply with US requests that would be illegal in Australia but whoever is operating their US-based DC absolutely is and they admit as much, even if they handwave this scenario as being no different from an ordinary hacking attempt[2].
[1]: https://www.fastmail.com/blog/fastmails-servers-are-in-the-u...
[2]: Of course the flaw in this comparison is that an ordinary hacker can't make on-site staff comply with their demands and prohibit them from disclosing the hack. To do so without the authority of the law, you'd need a Hollywood action movie level of criminal enterprise that would usually involve taking a retired police officer's granddaughter hostage for some reason.
Australia has some fairly draconian digital laws that authorities can issue notices requiring developers to assist with an investigation. This can include technical assistance which could require companies to build capability for law enforcement to break the encryption used in their services.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/nov/05/sessi...
https://www.404media.co/encrypted-chat-app-session-leaves-au...
If you don't want surveillance, you'd better not use email.
Operated by trustworthy individuals is a moot point when they are compelled by law to build in a backdoor if asked. Even a warrant canary is forbidden.
The surveillance laws, no matter how often you repeat the word "draconian", are irrelevant because…
Email isn't safe, and most of your email probably ends up on Google's or Microsoft's servers anyway, in which case US companies can be coerced by the US government to give them everything they have, while not being able to tell the public about it. And they do just that, a fact that came to light with Snowden's revelations. Australia cannot be worse than the US.
For emails, the government surveillance is irrelevant, as it happens anyway. And solutions like Proton Email are just privacy theatre that also happen to interact poorly with established standards (e.g., SMTP, IMAP).
I also fear Australia much less than I fear the US these days. I have always feared the US, especially due to their massive security apparatus, but at least I considered them valuable allies. These days we'll just add some extra fear points due to the techno-fascists in charge, voted-in by the people with a popular vote.
Whenever I see such comments on popular forums, such as HN, I lose faith in humanity a little, either because people don't think about the threat model (this being vibes-based) or the consequences of boycotting the underdogs, or because they are disingenuous about it.
Fastmail is a fine service, built and operated by trustworthy people, which also contribute to standards (e.g. JMAP) and to open source. A service that's also not monetized by ad-tech, unlike what the Big Tech email services are doing.
Yes, but their data centers aren't because they're operated by someone else in the US.
Fastmail is slightly better than using a US-based e-mail provider but it's still de facto US-based e-mail even if the company you sign up with sits in Australia. They don't control their own data centers and their data centers are in the US (whether they have additional data centers elsewhere doesn't matter if they're not transparent about which data center your data will go to).
Today the concern is war, both economic and literal.
From that perspective, I'll gladly use Australian, or Canadian online services, while avoiding using US ones for as much as possible. Note, I don't think it will be long before services like Fastmail will start moving their servers. Again, yesterday the US was an ally, whereas today the writing is on the wall.
There is also posteo.de. It doesn't support custom domains, but I use it in combination with simplelogin.io (I think French, but now owned by Proton).
SimpleLogin, by the way, is now owned by Proton which is run by a founder (CEO?) who is a vocal Trump supporter. Nothing wrong with that of course, just saying.
Anyone looking for alternatives - stay away from mailboxo.org. It's a pathetic service. Stuck in past (they have a suite that makes you kick a table leg), very disgustingly bad customer service (it's almost non existent), and yeah they use 2FA inside the password.
Tuta is many times better if you can live with not being able to use another client. (They have pretty decent apps on all platforms though)
Scaleway is positioned in the same space.
If not used the latter but the former was excellent back when I used to use them. They were a little more focused on traditional compute and lacks the general breadth of services that the likes of AWS offer. But if you’re in a position where you’re able to choose a cloud platform provider based on the location of their HQ, then the chances are you’re requirements from said cloud provider are pretty basic.
Like I understand how that might sound like hyperbole, but everything I'm reading seems to indicate the USA is on an express train to hackville.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-tech-ceos-meta-amazon-don...
(the risk is of course that the administration is not stable enough to stay bribed, or intra-oligarch fighting breaks out between Musk and one of the others)
Fascism tends to be (I read/learned recently) friendly to big corporations, as long as they are loyal to the regime.
Why aren't we all flying on Russian made planes and using Russian cloud products?
(people have long since moved away from the Russian-bought social network, Livejournal; it's very occasionally useful to look something up on Yandex if you think it may have been delisted)
Companies running under those governments should surely be susceptible to similar issues because the fish rots from the head down. The culture and fear of speaking out and there for steering things in the right direction would be really dangerous for a company like Amazon and the AWS ecosystem.
Of course there is - Tuta (no imap/pop3 client support) and Posteo (no custom domain) - which are both excellent if you can live with these limitations.
The ones I would not consider (personally): mailbox (germany; but they are really. bad now - I have commented below about it), proton (I'd avoid it; reason was on hn recently).
I think that this will depend a lot on expectations about politics in the USA in the medium/long term. Making this kind of investments makes sense if you expect the aggressive hostility that the current administration brought against Europe (and all other US traditional allies) to continue for a long time, and not just a couple years.
In other words, the question is 'is it easy to migrate to a service for which decent alternatives exist', rather than 'do decent alternatives exist for every service you depend on?'
You takeaway depends on what question you are most concerned with.
Big plays are possible only with big capital, and that isn't what happens in the EU tech market.
Lack of serious VCs is a problem on one hand, but to blame is also the EU Horizon program which will favor large established companies (which innovate very little), and the fact that the funding direction changes with hype cycles (in 2020 that was digital transformation, in 2024 it was AI and similar).
So i think lack of vc can be good.
Generic / not heavily propriety services which are pointed to by something you own (i.e. a domain name) can be migrated to new services. Web hosting, s3 hosting, email hosting etc.
Migrating from @gmail is not possible without scrapping an identity and starting over.
Transitive dependencies are always a worse problem than direct dependencies, because they are out of your view and control.
But good thinking to get started with moving towards more autarky.
He explains why he writes this, but this is an incredibly silly complaint because you can’t know what his expectations were.
> The only meaningful switch he mentions is Proton, but as other comments have pointed out they have vendor lock-in problems.
Which the author had with Microsoft 365 as well. Considering reducing vendor lock in wasn’t a goal of what they were trying to do, it’s not clear why you’re even raising that point.
> The real takeaway from this is that it's currently impossible in any meaningful sense.
It’s not clear how you got to this conclusion in any way whatsoever. In fact, this is an entirely ridiculous assertion.
Essentially your entire comment is “the author didn’t aim to do what I wanted them to aim to do therefore the author is wrong”.
... and drown in regulations and taxes. There's a reason why the vast, vast majority of IT startups are not in the EU.
Source: am a startup in the EU.
There is in practice, which is how we got into this situation.
Companies don't need anywhere near the profits of Google to cover continuous development and maintenance, so while a European tech giant of the size of Google might not seem that likely, a European office suite certainly is more likely.
https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/5g-elephant-in-the-room/
European national infrastructure providers don't care.
Or for the EC to stop their "rearm" BS, and actually do something useful for the people by helping such companies. This is the real battleground for European independence and freedom.
This is absolutely not the main takeaway and I find it difficult to see how he could write this - there are gaping holes. Git repos (it's too difficult). NPM (ditto). Startpage uses Google's index. The only meaningful switch he mentions is Proton, but as other comments have pointed out they have vendor lock-in problems. The real takeaway from this is that it's currently impossible in any meaningful sense. It feels like there's a real opportunity here for European companies to step up and make a big play, but will they? I really, really hope so. I'd jump ship in a heartbeat if I could.
Edit: To be clear, the reasons in brackets were the author's, not mine.