News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by anon373839 on Saturday March 08, 2025 @08:36AM (#43300151)
Teslas are 100% about cost-cutting. Flimsy, cheap, uncomfortable - but they do make those goofy spaceship noises! The lack of normal knobs, buttons, and stalks is just more of the cost-cutting.

It baffles me that they were ever considered “luxury” cars except as to price.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by api on Saturday March 08, 2025 @09:20AM (#43300446)
Tesla's claim to fame was being the longest range fastest EVs. They were pioneers in this era. Then they started investing in weird niche vehicles like the Cybertruck and dubious AI stuff instead of improving their regular cars, and the rest of the auto industry caught up with EVs.

Not surprisingly, companies that have been making cars forever are pretty good at making cars. Cars have always been a very competitive market, so you didn't have the kind of absolute stagnation you see in some other industries. Tesla just gave them a kick in the butt to make electric cars.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by anon373839 on Saturday March 08, 2025 @09:50AM (#43300693)
> Tesla's claim to fame was being the longest range fastest EVs

That's true, and they are insanely fast. But I will never forget when the Model S was released and was competing against flagships like the 7 series and S class. When I tried one out, my overwhelming first impression was: this is it? And that was 2012. And it's still basically the same car!

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by api on Saturday March 08, 2025 @11:51AM (#43301532)
I've heard it described as the most advanced drive train in the world with the body of a 1990s Kia on top.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by jjav on Saturday March 08, 2025 @01:49PM (#43302454)
But a 1990s Kia had proper physical controls for everything.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by genewitch on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:33AM (#43307297)
So kind of like the Mitsubishi Evo X?

The frame and body and interior was garbage. That drive train though.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by avalys on Saturday March 08, 2025 @08:39PM (#43305358)
The interior of the Model S was, and remains, appallingly cheap. It felt like a 1990s Chrysler minivan with all the buttons removed.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by tw04 on Saturday March 08, 2025 @09:09PM (#43305517)
It’s actually gone backwards since then. They removed things like the rain sensor for the automatic wipers, and turn signal and drive stalks. To improve the car? Nope, to cut dollars off the cost of a car that can hit six figures in price.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by amluto on Saturday March 08, 2025 @10:48PM (#43306009)
I think the removal of the drive stalk added cost.

AIUI, it turns out that the ability to select drive vs reverse is considered safety critical, so it has to work even if the infotainment system is not operational. This involves something along the lines of a dual-port touch sensor so that an independent, higher-reliability system can detect the gesture to change direction, and the hardware for that is not free. And the “gear shift” stalk was simple and cheap.

I haven’t tried it in an appropriate model Tesla, but I suspect you can trigger an infotainment reboot using whatever the current button press combination is, and then, before it finishes rebooting, select drive or reverse by swiping the left edge of the screen, and it will work.

Score one for car regulations doing the right thing? Maybe, but this all misses the mark, because how many people will know to do the ridiculous swipe on an invisible target when the need to get out of the way of an emergency vehicle and their infotainment system isn’t working.

(I don’t know about newer Teslas, but infotainment glitches on older models are common.)

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by pests on Saturday March 08, 2025 @11:39PM (#43306289)
I believe there are semi-hidden PRND buttons in the headliner behind/around the rear view mirror for the stalkless Tesla.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by laserlight on Sunday March 09, 2025 @07:02AM (#43307966)
> Model S was released and was competing against flagships like the 7 series and S class

That was Tesla's sales pitch. Model S was no competitor for Mercedes-Benz S-Class. It competed against the E-Class.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by dboreham on Saturday March 08, 2025 @06:02PM (#43304383)
> Then they started...<doing stuff Elon thought was a good idea>
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by api on Saturday March 08, 2025 @08:28PM (#43305308)
Elon has the wealth and success induced variant of Nobel disease: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_disease

Success is self limiting. It makes people start to engage in magical thinking about their own abilities and vision.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by dzhiurgis on Saturday March 08, 2025 @02:55PM (#43302959)
Tesla is premium segment. Stop spreading misinformation.

Sit in a Toyota and you’ll understand what is cheap.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by eitland on Saturday March 08, 2025 @04:30PM (#43303710)
People still choose to drive around in 20 or 30 year old Toyotas.

If price and fuel wasn't a consideration (diesel cars and fuel have crazy taxes around here) I'd end with Toyota 10/10 times.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by amluto on Saturday March 08, 2025 @11:01PM (#43306079)
In PG&E territory, an old Prius maybe gets 40mpg, and gas costs $4.90/gallon, giving $0.123/mi.

The current Model 3 seems to use about 25kWh/100mi. The off-peak rate (PG&E EV2-A) is 31c/kWh, giving $0.078/mi.

Tesla is winning, but not by a ton.

Supercharging seems to be a bit more expensive than home charging. Gasoline is less expensive outside California. Electricity is much less expensive outside of the investor-owned utility territories. Heck, Palo Alto (not exactly a low cost area) only charges $0.21c/kWh.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by eitland on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:30AM (#43306774)
My previous car was diesel powered and used 0,6l/10 km.

Where I live in Norway, this morning diesel is around $1.85 / l (so around $7 / gallon) and that is on the cheaper side since the pandemic ended.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by dzhiurgis on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:14AM (#43307189)
And some people choose amish buggy, doesn't mean it's shmik... And don't even get me on driving a petrol/diesel.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by bdangubic on Saturday March 08, 2025 @04:36PM (#43303746)
I own two Teslas and they are great! But definitely not premium. you are paying for brand, they are “premium” only because people have been willing to pay high price for a brand. car itself is as far for premium as it gets compared to other actual premium cars in the same price range
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by Lio on Saturday March 08, 2025 @05:15PM (#43304049)
I’m sure not you’re really describing the premium segment.

I’ll take a Toyota Century over a Tesla any day of the week.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by beezlewax on Saturday March 08, 2025 @05:19PM (#43304082)
It really isn't
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by Diti on Saturday March 08, 2025 @05:55PM (#43304337)
It really is. I don’t know what kind of electric vehicles you have been using, but the Renault Zoe, Peugeot E-308, and Hyundai IONIQ I’ve been using before Teslas are a PAIN to use and recharge (especially the Peugeot). Tesla still (unfortunately) is years ahead because of the Superchargers. The competition needs to step up.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by Retric on Saturday March 08, 2025 @07:10PM (#43304824)
That’s not a luxury feature, any mid priced gas car is reliable and fine to drive and fill up. Luxury is stuff like built in refrigerator, perfume packages, seat massager, power operated rear seats, etc that are a step up from the basics functionality of a car.

The most obvious example is they have few ways to customize the look of your vehicle. A model S has what 7 colors and 2 kinds of wheels vs 2025 EQS 450 with 18 colors and 6 wheels to choose from. The Bens then has 23 Upholstery options and 4 independent trims and that’s before all the odd option packages.

Tesla used to operate an exclusive charging network which was a premium feature, but they opened that up to other manufacturers.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by stavros on Saturday March 08, 2025 @06:49PM (#43304683)
I drive a BYD. Maybe the EU forced all cars to have the same charger, but I haven't seen a charger yet I didn't manage to charge at.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by tolien on Saturday March 08, 2025 @07:53PM (#43305089)
> Maybe the EU forced all cars to have the same charger

CCS2/Type-2 were adopted as EU standards with enforcement to start this year, although it sounds like it's more of a "the charger must have this, but can have others".

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by forgetfreeman on Saturday March 08, 2025 @05:47PM (#43304277)
Sit in a VW Golf for a minute and then tell me more about how premium Tesla is. It is bizarre how polished the ergonomics and interior fit and finish is, especially given the price.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by msy on Saturday March 08, 2025 @05:47PM (#43304283)
I mean the price is but the fit and finish is offensively bad for the money vs a BMW/Merc/Lexus/Volvo.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by joshribakoff on Saturday March 08, 2025 @05:56PM (#43304345)
I am lemoning my second Tesla in a couple hours. Part of the criteria was that they have attempted to fix rattles and squeaks multiple times and the issues keep returning and they keep causing additional issues when they attempt to repair the original issue.

The vehicle keeps also falling apart. The wheel covers keep falling off because the clips keep breaking, even though there has been no damage that should have caused it.

On the previous one they were about seven or eight repair attempts for the window failing to roll up so I was unable to secure the vehicle and they kept failing to provide loaners when it was in for service.

This is for the model X and model S, which is supposed to be their “luxury” vehicles

By the way, if you would like to lemon your Tesla, please read your purchase agreement for the email to send your request. You get back all of the interest, payments, tax, registration and everything.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by raincole on Saturday March 08, 2025 @06:44PM (#43304663)
What does "lemoning" mean?
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by t-writescode on Saturday March 08, 2025 @07:05PM (#43304791)
Likely Lemon Law.

Lemon laws are laws that provide a remedy for purchasers of cars and other consumer goods in order to compensate for products that repeatedly fail to meet standards of quality and performance. Although many types of products can be defective, the term "lemon" is mostly used to describe defective motor vehicles, such as cars, trucks, and motorcycles.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_law

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by wafflemaker on Saturday March 08, 2025 @07:11PM (#43304829)
After some search I've found that a 'lemon' is a slang term for a defective product.

https://www.wordsense.eu/lemoning/ It's number 5 here ^

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by eurleif on Saturday March 08, 2025 @07:18PM (#43304883)
It's more of a legal term of art than a slang term at this point. It's written into the statutes in some states, e.g. in Florida: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Displ...
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by DonHopkins on Sunday March 09, 2025 @07:11AM (#43308010)
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by dzhiurgis on Saturday March 08, 2025 @06:23PM (#43304536)
Completely unrelated post.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by stavros on Saturday March 08, 2025 @06:47PM (#43304677)
A comment replying to "Tesla is luxury" with "no it's not, mine keeps breaking" isn't unrelated. My 15-year-old Mercedes still looks brand new, luxury doesn't have a hard time keeping itself from falling apart.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by dzhiurgis on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:08AM (#43307162)
How does interior quality and plastic firmness relate to a lemon? Does your car get totaled when there's imperfection in a cupholder? Are you people are out of your mind?
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by stavros on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:10AM (#43307173)
Man, please read the comment chain. "Tesla is premium" "actually it's shit, I got two bad ones" "completely unrelated post" "no it isn't".

At this point it feels like you're misunderstanding the chain on purpose.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by kortilla on Sunday March 09, 2025 @07:17AM (#43308047)
Luxury and durability are mostly independent.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by whateveracct on Saturday March 08, 2025 @06:16PM (#43304492)
My 2008 Civic feels better made than the Teslas I've been in tbh.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by whoknowsidont on Saturday March 08, 2025 @09:30PM (#43305610)
>Stop spreading misinformation.

Facts are definitely treated as misinformation by a certain class of people these days, that's for sure.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by mullingitover on Saturday March 08, 2025 @10:33PM (#43305927)
My biggest 'wtf' moment was riding in back to back uber rides with a Model Y and then a Kia EV6.

First time riding in both. The road noise in the Y made it feel really cheap. Rough ride. Generally cheap feel.

The Kia was much smoother, quieter, obviously more premium materials.

It's really simple, Tesla people will tell you the car is built around a computer while other manufacturers stick a computer in their car. They're correct, and that's not a compliment for the Tesla because the ergonomics as well as the fit and finish were clearly an afterthought.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by dzhiurgis on Sunday March 09, 2025 @07:02AM (#43307961)
Bjorn's results say they have basically identical noise - down to 0.1 db on same tyres:

Kia EV6 GT Dry Michelin PS4S Summer 255/40-21 255/40-21 64,4 66,9 68,8 67,06 Tesla Model Y RWD Dry Michelin Pilot Sport EV Summer 255/40-20 255/40-20 64,5 67,1 68,7 67,09

Source: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1HOwktdiZmm40atGPwymz...

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by mullingitover on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:08PM (#43311142)
That’s great but not at all my actual experience. The roads in LA aren’t great, and I felt/heard every bump in the Y along with hearing rattling. Not so with the EV6.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by dzhiurgis on Sunday March 09, 2025 @05:01PM (#43313772)
Now compare what you actually get at same price. Some Kia's even ship without power seats, let alone 15+ things you get in every Tesla.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by kube-system on Saturday March 08, 2025 @10:49PM (#43306014)
> Sit in a Toyota and you’ll understand what is cheap.

You clearly haven't sat in a loaded '25 Camry.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by mv4 on Saturday March 08, 2025 @07:48PM (#43305053)
I own a Tesla and I've never considered it a luxury car. It's a high-tech car.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by DecentShoes on Saturday March 08, 2025 @10:40PM (#43305970)
I love my Model 3 but the lack of a rain sensor is just dumb cost cutting
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by pests on Saturday March 08, 2025 @11:33PM (#43306259)
I always joke about that to my buddy when I'm driving in his M3. Be the sunniest nicest day out, the wipers will randomly turn on going crazy.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by 01HNNWZ0MV43FF on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:46AM (#43306842)
My gas car turns on the wipers sometimes when the sun shines on the sensor just right. Like a photic sneeze. Of course it cost about a quarter of a new Tesla
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by tyfon on Sunday March 09, 2025 @04:11AM (#43307177)
I call them sunwipers.

Funnily this happens only in my model 3, not my X (I bought them before Elon went crazy). Both have automatic wipers on.

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by silon42 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:47AM (#43306848)
forget sensor, a normal wiper lever would do
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by karlgkk on Sunday March 09, 2025 @01:47AM (#43306852)
Model S is a luxury car. Model 3 is a luxury car to people who think Hyundais are nice.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by ChrisMarshallNY on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:27AM (#43307827)
Hyundai has come a long, long way, over the years. They are now quite nice. The Genesis boutique brand is excellent.
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by karlgkk on Monday March 10, 2025 @06:07AM (#43318736)
lol
Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by fransje26 on Sunday March 09, 2025 @07:46AM (#43308230)
> Model S is a luxury car

Nothing spells out "luxury" better than misadjusted panel gaps..

Re:Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital func... by jajko on Sunday March 09, 2025 @06:15AM (#43307788)
Luxury? Where the people live? Luxury looks and feels and costs and drives differently.

Tesla is upper middle class (model S) or lower, just with potentially more horsepower in some models. It has great straight line performance and thats about it, but then ie dragsters should be in ultra-luxury class by that logic.