Honestly, it seems like people who clamor for physical controls are a vocal minority --- Teslas sell very well [0] and owner satisfaction is very high [1] despite the loud complaints from non-Tesla drivers online. It seems most people who actually drive Teslas are happy with them, and even controversial things like steering buttons take 5 minutes to get used to.

[0] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-worlds-best-sell...

[1] https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-s...

Maybe it’s part of the reason that Teslas are involved in more fatal accidents than any other car manufacturer.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a62919131/tesla-has-highes...

That study was already debunked. They had underestimated the number of miles traveled by a large margin.

https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1gyznda/t...

The study was debunked by a Tesla exec posting on X and reposted on Reddit. Excuse me if I view that with a very healthy amount of skepticism.

The Tesla exec has access to the actual figure for miles traveled and why should he lie about something like that?

And just from visual inspection, it is evident that there are numerous surprises with the iSeeCars study that are difficult to explain. For example, why is there such a huge difference between Model 3 and Y fatality rates even though the cars are similar in most respects?

Another thing to note is that the number of fatalities is only a handful, often under 10 in a year. The standard deviation of the Poisson distribution would already give error bars of 30% at least, making direct comparisons between models meaningless.

Finally, if you read the accident reports, most of the fatalities are head on collisions with drunk drivers and not wearing seatbelts. Having physical controls for hvac or whatever has absolutely nothing to do with it.

> The Tesla exec has access to the actual figure for miles traveled and why should he lie about something like that?

Because money?

> why should he lie about something like that?

Nobody's that naive.

People are naive to trust the obviously wrong numbers from the iSeeCars study though.

I'd happily wager $100 that in a couple of years time we'll have the data to conclude that Model Ys were not 3x more lethally dangerous than average.

Would you take that bet?

> Teslas sell very well

Someone's been sleeping for last 12 months

Do we believe that “people buy them and they like them” should be the end-all argument to judge everything? I think it’s a datapoint but it doesn’t mean that the thing is good for society or people themselves.

Like 40% of people used to smoke. 40% of people are obese today. I’m not comparing these things to teslas in terms of harm (though funding musk is societal harm) but they prove that consumers can make very very bad choices and IMO do all the time

The vocal minority acts as a valid canary, probably most of the time.

People buy them and might still hate the touch screen. I know I hate my car's touch screen.

Just because people buy something doesn't mean they love every aspect of it.

I overall liked our Model Y, but the infotainment/touch screen situation was my biggest complaint.

We recently switched to an ID Buzz because our family outgrew the Y. The interior is a huge improvement over the Y (which, fair, it is a more expensive vehicle) and CarPlay is just objectively better than Tesla’s infotainment, but the rest of the software is pretty meh. I really miss a lot of little things like phone keys and a built in dash cam, though.

Teslas have a large driver base (note, likely doesn't apply to this forum) who don't know good engineering or design when they see it. They confuse "I spent good money on this" with "this is a good product".

Sorry, we all have our opinions and perspective, but money isn't the only value judgement.

I want my speedo in my easy line of vision on any vehicle I drive. I want to be able to demist my windscreen by reaching for a button I can find without taking my eyes off the road.

Citation needed.

I have an ID4 around that price, it keeps the lane and has a lane change assist. Is there any special sauce to autopilot?

ID4 was at least $10k more expensive in Oct 2024, with worse driving performance.

ID4's price seems to be $42k in the US? How much is the Model Y? Or did ID4's price decrease to $42k recently?

They added a new tier and dropped some and increased some.

https://www.carscoops.com/2025/02/vw-ditches-base-2025-id-4-...

I was comparing a 3 row model Y AWD with tow hitch to AWD Pro ID.4 and ID.4 was coming in close to $50k, both with the federal tax credit. And the ID.4 lacked the 3rd row seating. I am also biased against European vehicles because I assume they will be more maintenance/expensive. I had a bunch of people recommend Model Y to me, and I trusted Tesla's electric vehicle making experience more than VW.

> Is there any special sauce to autopilot?

Yes, copium

I will be the first to say Elon is a Nazi and shouldn’t be in a leadership position.

But it’s crazy to claim Model 3 and Y are not competitively priced products that are usable for many, many people.

And I will also say I would not currently pay extra for a high end Tesla. But on the cheap end, and with the far superior buying experience without a stealership in the middle, it is welcome competition to the incumbent automakers.

What's your evidence that he's a nazi? Waving at a crowd doesn't count btw.

Oh it’s waving?

You should upload a video of yourself doing it. Do it right now if it’s not a Nazi salute.

I’ll wait for your upload.

Not really but it works nicely, also with less than ideal road conditions.

Obligatory disclaimers:

- Tesla is from USA and its CEO Elon Musk appears to be a nazi.

- Mobileye, the company that sells driving assistance equipment to many car manufacturers including VW, is from Israel.

I would be shocked if ID4 had comparable driver assistance features. Even Audis are pretty shaky and unreliable. Tesla’s seem to be a few generations ahead

Even a current Toyota Corolla has lane assistance but turning it on, settings etc are just better at the Tesla model 3 I drive. Lane keeping is good, haptic and audio feedback are good. The Toyota has haptic steering wheel feedback that I have not figured out yet, it steers but also leaves the lane. The Toyota chirms/acoustic sounds appear to me not used consistently across different functions, sound too similar or not warning enough. Admittedly this can all be personal choice and getting used to.

Windshield wipers, turn signal, heat? I feel like you're being dishonest or just accustomed to the hostility.

Or live somewhere with no weather and moderate temperatures so no need for any of them minus the turn signals. It’s my pet theory of why tesla’s auto wiper setting is so bad: they’re located somewhere without rain/snow or without varying amounts of rain/snow.

How many more excuses for an incomplete vehicle can we make for this company?

Lucid, Rivian, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Hyundai/Kia, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, and BMW all have design studios in California. They don’t all have this problem.

Do we really think that Tesla engineers and product managers have never seen rain or snow before? And if so what kind of lame excuse is that?

Aren’t some of Tesla’s biggest markets in cold weather climates? Places like Canada, New England, Scandinavia, Germany, and China (Beijing).

If they live in SoCal, 2/3 you listed might not be relevant. Paired with the battery degradation in cold climates…

I also don’t see much reason to buy a Tesla in 2025. There are better quality interiors for less money. The only thing Tesla has going for them is acceleration (if you pay!) and that is only relevant on a racetrack to push the car to it’s limits. Any normal EV is plenty quick for daily driving.

> The only thing Tesla has going for them is acceleration (if you pay!)

Tesla base (no extra cost) acceleration is really good for anyone but speed junkies. I’ve had plenty of people (non-gear heads, non-speed junkies) white knuckle when I showed them what my model y is capable of.

The best part is that the acceleration is punchy all the way from 0 to about 105-110mph.

Other than that, I think the “religious wars” over Teslas give folks a warped view of reality. My comments to anyone who is thinking of getting one:

- Test drive one for yourself — this will be the most telling. Sometimes the showroom will let you borrow one over night. I knew I was getting mine after about 2 minutes of a test drive.

- Learn about the controls. Reading the manual helps when you get one… there are tons of cool, functional features.

- Try to go in with an open-but-critical mind. If you test drive with an overly negative disposition, you will almost certainly hate it. If you go in with an overly positive disposition, you will be blind to potential faults (e.g., for me, a yoke steering wheel that some models have is a no-go).

Note that refreshed model y is coming out in May or so, and it seems like the options they chose are fairly optimized.

Fully agree with you, model 3 driver myself.

I've looked around (Europe), and there's nothing comparable at the price, except maybe Ioniq (but I didn't like the ergonomics, not saying it's objectively bad, just didn't fit me). Kia is way more expensive, Volkswagen is way more expensive at the same trim level, etc.

The BYD Seal has leaps and bounds better interior (and overall design) for roughly the same price as a Tesla.

> Windshield wipers, turn signal, heat?

On my model y and (I think) the new model y releasing in May:

1. Physical controls (stalk button and scroll wheel)

2. Stalk

3. Voice or top level of screen, although the auto-temp is good for me 99% of the time

The extent to which some folks fixate on these issues (at least for the model y) makes me think “religious war” or “neurodivergent”. It’s unnecessary fear-mongering.

From the article: "five most important functions – the volume, the heating on each side of the car, the fans and the hazard light".

Interesting choices. None of those are driving controls.

Presumably lights and wipers are on stalks. What about cruise control and related functions?

They mentioned returning to physical buttons on the steering wheel as well. Past VW models (eg. Golf Mk7) have the cruise control button on the steering wheel. I read "five most important functions" as relative to those you would usually find on a centre console, not for overall driving.

On Model Y:

> the volume, the heating on each side of the car, the fans and the hazard light".

Volume - scroll wheel

Heating - voice or screen, screen can be top screen for most functions (it’s editable for most-used functions)

Fans - same as heating, adjusting direction is top screen

Hazards - physical button near rear view mirror

> Presumably lights and wipers are on stalks.

Lights - stalk

Wipers - stalk and scroll wheel

> What about cruise control and related functions?

Autopilot (adaptive cruise control with lane assist) - right stalk and scroll wheel

Note: Article isn’t opening for me (hug of death), so I can’t refer to it.

Hazard lights absolutely are driving controls in some countries. I'd argue all countries.

If you must stop suddenly on a motorway, the hazard lights give additional warning to following vehicles. Switch them on as soon as possible. This is especially important in low visibility or at night.

Fans are also essential. You obviously don't live in a climate where the windscreen can fog up unexpectedly.

As I mentioned, hazards are a physical button. I don’t know what the issue is.

For the fans, usually they turn on automatically, but sometimes I have to turn them on by voice control.

As I have said before, these are all things that are trivially easy to handle without removing one’s hands from the wheel or eyes from the road. Some folks are just hellbent on tilting at this windmill for some reason.

Nah, the religious war people will complain about Elon, and maybe vague accusations of poor general quality (not untrue but no-one cars about the door gap, poor tolerances are only an issue in the drivetrain, and Tesla's drive train is inherently very good even if they don't have late 90s Toyota levels of quality control).

Many people just hate touch screen controls. Maybe that is kind of a religious war with car enthusiasts, like auto vs manual. But a lack physical controls are a huge deal for some people. It's like if a dev tool doesn't have a cli.

I'm not even a car enthusiast and I refuse to get a car without decent physical controls.

I've driven several Teslas and all were a terrible experience largely for this reason, basic controls are often absurdly clunky or hard to find. That's nice that they finally fixing some of these mistakes after years of complaints, but I'm very skeptical of a company that so often goes out of its way to create problems in order to be cheap and novel.

I've been hearing for years from Tesla fans about how perfectly amazing the cars are but I doubt they will suddenly be right after yet another redesign.

Wipers and turn signals are physical controls, I don’t find them much different than any other car.

I haven’t had to change heat/cool settings, I have it set to 70F and I haven’t had to adjust it.

See. I'm a hacker. I need to control things. I bought the car and want access to it.

There’s an API and even third party buttons.

I don’t think there’s any other modern car getting so much scrutiny. Ironically it is making it so much better than competitors they basically have no chance to catch up.

I think you're describing Tesla, I have no idea lacking context. You couldn't pay me to drive Tesla at this point.

You are severely misinformed. Heat is a finger flick away. Rest are physical controls.

Depending on the model year, it may have a stalk for turn signals. The same stalk has a button on the end to trigger the wipers (rarely needed because they're auto-sensing), and then wiper speed/mode can be adjusted with the dials on the steering wheel. Heat likewise has an 'auto' mode that does what you'd expect.

I have a Model Y and a Toyota Highlander (so not just accustomed to the hostility), and I prefer the hands-off approach in the Tesla. No reason to lie.

Hyundai and Kias have good ADAS, and can be had for less then a Tesla.

Nowhere near as good.

You can get better in a Mercedes, but it ain't cheap. Tesla ADAS isn't all that it made out to be: it's mostly very aggressive, which imo makes it more dangerous, especially to others. No wonder Tesla owners took the "most dangerous drivers" crown from Bimmer owners.