My neighbor is way wealthier than me. So its ok if I take his car. He has enough he can just buy another one.
Not quite. If you are ultra wealthy because you happen to own several large buildings, fleeing the country to avoid taxes is easy. Doing so with you wealth, however, isn’t.
You make it sound as though he put a lot of his own money (somehow obtained from elsewhere) into these companies.
But that's not true at all. It is correct English to say that he is "heavily invested" in these companies in the sense that his wealth is paper wealth based on the perceived value (stock price) of these companies.
But he is not invested in them the way that a typical person has their retirement funds invested in a company or mutual fund.
It’s got to be worth a try rather than the disastrous economic policies that got us here.
In the same vein, if the US were to implement a wealth tax, the simplest way in terms of enforcement and not creating perverse incentives to shelter wealth outside the country would be to make it international in scope. Yes, people could give up their citizenship, but that's a huge sacrifice which most wealthy people would not want to make at any price, and there's already an exit tax in place for people that do this.
The problem is that people will always probe the tax code for loopholes that weren't considered. It's a cat and mouse game, except the cat is fat and lazy, and gets paid by the mouse.
Sure, a billionaire could then use their $143M estate as collateral on a loan to avoid realizing the capital gains, loophole, but since you can only have one primary home, it's a very limited loophole.
And land is something of finite quantity that is actually taken away from the rest of society. Capital is produced, and made, and is not finite like land.
This is one thing that California got really wrong, it should be taxing land heavily, and income less.
Wouldn't that inflate housing prices even more? Which disproportionally affect those in the bottom 90% or so.
I still think property taxes on stocks should be a thing. Americans pay income taxes from foreign sources, so why shouldn’t the rich also pay the same for overseas investments? Just close the loopholes with simpler tax laws. That could be like saying it isn’t hard to program some feature into software, though, so perhaps not.
Example: “Thou shalt pay 0% of all income and assets up to 20k, 10% to 50k, …, and 95% on up to 20mm.”
> why shouldn’t the rich also pay the same for overseas investments?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_erosion_and_profit_shif...
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I think a more reasonable interpretation might be "the government knows about expensive cars (i.e. that they are registered, have numberplates etc), and so charges some annual tax on the owners of those cars."
The government that is supposed to work for you thinks you have accumulated too much stuff and is trying to make it legal to take a percentage of your physical wealth annually.
This is simplistic nonsense. No, the majority of wealthy people didn't accumulate their wealth because high and mighty lord government willed it into their existence. They did it within a system of laws and regulations that government admittedly does create for fostering such wealth creation. However, this still often requires strenuous effort by these people for their own ends. If it were otherwise, many more people would be rich just by virtue of living under a government. There is a real place for giving people credit for the wealth and capital accumulate, well beyond what government offers.
It's contradictory and absurd to argue that people accumulate wealth because of the government while at the same time arguing that we live in a situation in which we need more government control of people's earnings to prevent oligarchy since government doesn't do enough.
Wealth does not exist in a vacuum. It is not some inherent trait of individuals that manifests independently of the structures around them. The wealthiest people succeed not just because of their individual effort but because they operate within a framework that provides enforceable contracts, property rights, regulated markets, financial systems, infrastructure, security, and a workforce educated by public institutions. Strip all that away, and they are no better off than anyone else in a lawless wasteland where power is dictated purely by brute force.
If wealth were purely a function of individual effort, we’d see people amassing fortunes in failed states or ungoverned regions where there is no government interference—but we don’t. In fact, in those places, the absence of government results in instability, extreme poverty, and the inability to conduct large-scale business. Conversely, the wealthiest individuals overwhelmingly exist in places with strong institutions and legal protections—because those things are prerequisites for wealth accumulation.
Your contradiction is actually the real contradiction. You claim that people become rich despite the government but then ignore the fact that wealth is unequally distributed precisely because the government does not intervene enough to prevent market capture by a small elite. A government that enables wealth creation is not the same as one that ensures it is fairly distributed. It is perfectly consistent to acknowledge that wealth requires government structures while also recognizing that unchecked capitalism leads to oligarchy.
So no, this isn't simplistic nonsense. The simplistic nonsense is pretending that wealth creation happens in a vacuum when, in reality, it is entirely contingent on the existence of an organized society with functional institutions.
strenuous effort by their employees or are you telling me that the average billionaire works 50000 hours a day?
This is most apparent in sports or the arts. Being just a little bit better at baseball can be the difference between a million dollar contract and being stuck in the minor leagues.
Of course the question of whether we should want success to follow a power law is a different matter. As is the role of luck. Going back to the sports example, being born at the right time of year can be a huge, permanent advantage[1].
[1] https://medium.com/@connorbaldwin28/why-athletes-tend-to-be-...
This is akin to saying you only achieved a high score in a video game by your own sweat and effort, and saying the video game developer had nothing to do with it. Without their work, you wouldn't have a system within which to accrue wealth. You may not even have the concept of wealth or property. Bezos wouldn't have his wealth regardless of himself creating amazon if there didn't already exist power grids to electrify his warehouses and data centers, roads upon which his delivery vans could travel, a financial sector to see him be paid for his goods, on and on and on.
The mythmaking of the self-made-wealthy has gone completely off the fucking deep end at this point with a portion of the population, as if these CEOs fell from the sky, cratered in the Earth, raised their arms and from them spawned hyperscaler businesses and cavemen left their campfires, picked up Macbooks and started writing React code.
> It's contradictory and absurd to argue that people accumulate wealth because of the government while at the same time arguing that we live in a situation in which we need more government control of people's earnings to prevent oligarchy since government doesn't do enough.
This is not contradictory at all unless you boil the points down utterly beyond recognition.
You are confusing two things thinking they aren’t highly related but they are. This statement could otherwise be written “government created a flawed system and motivated individuals achieved wealth by taking advantage of that system”. That implies a flawed system was causal. We don’t need bigger government, we need the right government. No one wants to say that those who worked hard - even by benefitting from a flawed government - should not have high wealth, but by your same argument, what did the wealthy children of these individuals do to justify their wealth? Their children? How long do we believe this chain of inheritance is sensible?
We just wanted to be the ones setting the rules.
We were quite quick to put our own stamp on the populace. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion
It is next to impossible to hide the fact that someone owns something like real estate
In addition to real estate I might consider other property such as bank accounts, at least above a certain threshold. Presumably that cash has to be invested somewhere (or should be encouraged to do so)
If we could get a real wealth tax, I would do away with income taxes like some states have done (i.e. Texas)
Real estate can already be taxed via property taxes. Unrealized gains in securities can't be taxed the same way as their value is much more volatile, with potentially large daily swings. Texas makes up for the lack of income taxes with relatively high property taxes.
>In addition to real estate I might consider other property such as bank accounts, at least above a certain threshold.
Interest from savings accounts is already taxed. The wealthy don't hoard their wealth in bank accounts though.
It seems fair that you shouldn't be able to have it both ways—if you are getting any financial benefit from an asset, including a loan, there's a pretty strong argument that you yourself are "realizing" that value.
I think it would be more realistic to heavily tax inheritance and re-evaluate trust based loopholes.
I mean, you’re clearly moving the goalposts here. We’re talking about tax on unrealized gains for the wealthy, not sales tax, property tax, or taxes on the bank.
If you’re able to keep taking out new loans to pay off the old loans until you die, with an appreciating “unrealized” asset as collateral, then yes all that money is effectively tax free if we’re talking about income tax and capital gains.
There is no such federal tax in the USA.
And it is just ludicrous to suggest that stock holdings cannot be subject to a wealth tax. The value of stock holdings are established all the time when the wealthy provide their net worth for their business dealings.
The IRS requires me to submit the value of my IRA holdings as of the end of the year to determine how much will be taxed the next year (by forcing me to withdraw a dollar amount - determined by the asset value of my holdings - which vary minute by minute when the markets are open). So, I guess it's ok for the IRS to measure my wealth each year to enable the IRS to collect a tax on that wealth - but some how you say that's impossible to do for billionaires?
If an equity is valued at $X on some date when we lock in the value for a wealth tax or a tax on unrealized gains then sell enough of your equities on that date to pay for the tax and store that in a zero-risk asset. This can easily be done automatically.
I'm scared of 2% wealth taxes (as discussed in New Zealand) because I believe that will take 100% of retirement savings over time. And I'm no multimillionaire. Say portfolio returns 6% and drawdown(spending) is 4% then 2% takes 100% of gains.
The 1% or 2% figures sound trivial to the voting majority but they really are not trivial. Cue discussion on compounding.
The other issue is Forcing sale of private owned businesses. If you fuck with the incentives to grow a businesses, you will end up with a shitty economy and everybody suffers.
Apart from the obvious 2% * decades = lots (for low growth investments).
I could work to create new high-margin export income for New Zealand: I have the skills. But I don't work because I hate our taxation system: NZ loses.
An economy needs to incentivise everyone to work including the wealthy: otherwise it bombs. It scares me to see people in the US want to introduce features to cripple their most successful economy. I think most workers poorly understand businesses or economic incentives.
Most people just don't know about it. Due to the FIF rules. Any international investments you have get taxed like this (it's not so clear cut, but more or less). The only exceptions are NZ investments and Aussie investments, maybe. There is a tool to check if an aussie share is except from the FIF rules. e.g. Aussie ETFs aren't, even if they invest in only aussie stocks...
So everyone with a Kiwisaver (retirement scheme), aka most people, have large portion invested overseas, and thus are paying the 1.4% p.a.
It also discourages high net worth people from moving to NZ, as they usually have investments outside of NZ, which will get taxed once they move here (after a few years exception).
The small "win" we do get is you can (cost bases) invest up to $50k overseas without the 1.4% FIF rules applying, (though dividends are still taxed). But like no one knows about it, and managed funds can't take advantage of this, so most people don't utilize this, especially not low income people, who generally aren't that well educated on finances.
Don't get me started on our lackluster retirement scheme, Kiwisaver, with near 0 tax incentives, and propping up the housing market prices.
While our NZ Super isn't asset tested, our residential care subsidy (elderly care) is asset tested, and is very expensive. When you get old and don't die suddenly, then it's likely your assets you've accumulated over the years will be used to pay for your care (though there are some way around it, but not usually cost effective unless you have a large amount of assets).
But, the elder care the govt gives you (if you can't afford it aka no assets), isn't very pleasant, so you really should plan for it while you're working age, and have investments large enough to cover the costs (which most in NZ don't do).
I don't think we have insurance here that covers elder care.
I believe the guys across the ditch (Australia), have a better retirement system setup. While in NZ our Kiwisaver by default contributions are 6% (total. 3% employer, 3% employee), been this since it started just about, while in Aussie, the current min default total is 11%. Though Aussie's govt supported retirement payments are asset tested, where as they aren't in NZ.
I think having a higher min default is probably best for everyone, as most people don't change from the default.
Also, the US has 401(k) savings plans. It is pretty similar to Kiwisave.
Says who? According to whom? Who gets to make that call?
If you don't have anything then you can avoid certain costs, or sometimes you can get subsidised.
The wealthy also get some financial boosts e.g. house appreciation. And white collar crime has cheap convictions (or you can avoid consequences)
I've never had kiwisaver because I believe in the value of optionality with my own money. I severely hate locked up money. Being able to deploy money has gained me a small house worth of money. The FIF rules are a cunt to manage and Sharsies are SHIT - they've promised to deliver an FIF report but haven't done so.
Why though? We’ve already established the end game if we don’t do this. It’s hard to imagine society willingly regressing back to feudalism. What we likely need is a sensible plan which gradually adopts wealth tax rather than a radical step change.
The problem is that such a tax must be strongly progressive, or it may affect the poor much more than the rich.
For instance, I have seen cases in some countries, where after the discussions about the usefulness of such taxes for wealth, the result was the establishing of some high taxes on property, whose only effects were that e.g. someone who were jobless for some time might be forced to sell their house, and for a disadvantageous price, for not having with what to pay the property tax, thus becoming both jobless and homeless, or someone poor who inherited a house might be forced to sell it for a disadvantageous price, for not being able to pay the inheritance tax.
The result of this kind of misguided tax was an even greater transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.
1. Gary’s arguments for taxing the rich aren’t about taxing income. It’s about taxing wealth.
2. By his argument, most of the wealth are immovable: the rich disproportionately owns actual, physical real estates, and stocks of actual companies. As these assets are based in the country, you could tax right at the source.