I understand that a new company with a new product is going to have issues. But I would have strongly preferred they spent the time and effort (and money) fixing or replacing these 1st gen mainboards rather than branching out into a very non-Framework area like desktop gaming PCs.

They provide a "repair" kit that's basically a dummy CMOS battery that hooks in to the normal power system that prevents the issue from occurring again.

Also just FYI, there was a BIOS update in June of last year (3.20).

I am aware of the issue as described in [1] and the fix in [2]. However, my support request has gone unanswered for a year, as was my second support request. In addition, I have doubts as to whether this fix (which requires soldering!) will work.

I was not aware of an updated BIOS [3], foolishly believing the output of 'fwupdmgr' after following the instructions in [4]. It looks like I'll need to find a USB stick and update via EFI shell. Thanks for the tip!

But still, I think they should do more for early customers before expanding out well beyond their core market!

1 - https://framework.kustomer.help/my-laptop-is-not-powering-on...

2 - https://guides.frame.work/Guide/RTC+Battery+Substitution+on+...

3 - https://community.frame.work/t/11th-gen-intel-core-bios-3-20...

4 - https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/updating-bios-on-linu...

Also you're welcome! They have been pretty hit or miss on pushing updates to LVFS so I absolutely understand why you might not have known.

I truly regret my purchase of a Framework laptop. Truth be told, I've never, ever had to repair a laptop more than this one, and I'd prefer a product that I didn't have to repair at all (and if there is a defect in manufacture or design, that the manufacturer take all necessary steps to remedy that error). If I was attracted to their products, including their desktop offering, I would think twice before spending money with them. I really really wish I'd put the money toward a new M-series macbook.

Heck their reminder to keep the BIOS updated makes no mention of the fact that their instructions for Linux are bogus, as their UEFI blobs are not available to fwupdmgr. What's more, to get to 3.20 you have to first upgrade to 3.17, all through EFI boot. It's a really rotten experience.

==============

PLEASE READ THIS MESSAGE FULLY!

This is an automated message sent to all customers that have either been identified as having a power-related issue with an 11th Gen Intel Core Mainboard or have specifically requested either a replacement RTC Battery or the solderable RTC Battery Substitute.

If you’ve needed to perform the Mainboard Reset procedure more than once on your 11th Gen system or the laptop will not power on even after performing the reset, your RTC/CMOS battery may no longer be holding a charge. There are a couple options available that the Framework Support team can provide to resolve the issue:

1. Framework Support can provide a replacement RTC/CMOS battery to you, free of charge, regardless of the status of your warranty. Simply request this option and provide your Framework Order Number along with a clear image/photo of the serial number of your Mainboard. If you do not have access to the Order Number, please provide the email used to complete the purchase on the Framework website. To access the Mainboard serial number, please follow the steps in the guide HERE and find the serial label between the memory slots. Also, please verify your shipping information/address (only in supported countries/regions) to avoid unnecessary back and forth communications. For information on acceptable shipping addresses, please see the following article HERE . If you receive a replacement RTC/CMOS battery it is important to make sure to let it fully recharge by keeping your laptop plugged into power for at least 24 hours. We also recommend keeping your laptop plugged into power during long periods of non-use to avoid letting the RTC/CMOS battery fully discharge. Note that even a normal 5V/900mA USB-C power adapter will sufficiently trickle charge the system and RTC/CMOS battery.

2. Framework Support now has an alternative option for those with the technical skills to solder electrical components. This alternative RTC/CMOS Battery Substitution is a single solder point component which replaces the coin cell battery with a circuit that keeps the RTC subsystem powered from the main battery. You can find the step by step instructions for installing this module in this guide. PLEASE NOTE: You should NOT request this option if you or the person designated for this rework do not have sufficient electronics soldering experience. While it is only a single solder point, failing to solder this correctly can result in damage to the system that is not covered under Framework’s Limited Warranty. If you accept the associated liability, please request this option and provide a clear image/photo of the serial number of your mainboard and your Framework Order Number. If you do not have access to the Order Number, please provide the email used to complete the purchase on the Framework website. To access the Mainboard serial number, please follow the steps in the guide HERE and find the serial label between the memory slots. Also, please verify your shipping information/address (only in supported countries/regions) to avoid unnecessary back and forth communications. For information on acceptable shipping addresses, please see the following article HERE .

Finally, we also recommend keeping your system up to date with the latest firmware releases. Please see the following knowledge base article which has links to the latest BIOS/Firmware and Framework Driver Bundles for each generation of Framework Laptop.

If you have provided the required imagery and your order number, one of our staff will be with you to provide an update on your request. Thank you for your patience and we apologize for any frustration this issue may have caused. Regards, Framework Support

===============

Also I will again agree that my Batch 4 (or was it 5? I can't remember) FW13 is the most I've had to repair a laptop as well. I'm just gonna chalk that up to them technically being pre-full-production units and hope they have improved their QA in the later gens.

However I will also add that I like having the option to fix it myself (which is something I have some amount of skill/enjoyment in doing) which is certainly NOT an option you'd have with that M-series MacBook (or really any other brand of laptop)

Turns out the Samsung EVO NVMe I installed had really high power draw (I guess it's meant for performance desktops?). I replaced it with a WD Blue and now I lose negligible power while suspended.

Sadly this does not generate revenue to the shareholders.

Similar to what other commenters have expressed, it just seems like they shouldn't have built this product if they couldn't figure out the soldered RAM bit.

The Ryzen AI Max+ 395 was paper launched a month ago. What Framework announced here is just another pre-order (even batch 1 won't ship until Q3). There are dozens of other systems, including mini-PCs, announced months ago which are set to launch before this. Small laptops were actually the first 395+ products to launch, hence this month's benchmark reviews all used them. E.g. https://www.tomsguide.com/computing/laptops/gaming-laptops/a...

I would not be surprised if one will be able to get a full 128 GB 395+ mini PC for less than the cost of the Framework Desktop baseboard before the Framework Desktop actually starts arriving in hands. What you're buying here is a premium to be able to replace the shell and front USB ports.

I haven't found any other with a committed release/ship date.

This Reddit thread tends to agree: https://www.reddit.com/r/MiniPCs/comments/1ieiate/when_are_r...

Even the Asus Z13 laptops with the 395+ have no shipping date yet.

Looking at the two GMKtec systems with their rattling fans I have here, I would rather take the Framework system where I can easily swap the fan. Cooling those 100-120W will take space and air flow.

Plenty of folks on Reddit have already received shipment (not order) confirmation of the Z13. It looks like even more as of this morning. I doubt if any have actually fully received said shipments yet as it has only been a couple days since launch. It'll likely remain pretty out of stock unless you managed to get an order immediately at launch, again due to the paper launch of the 395 last month and low 395 availability until Q2.

I didn't know HP was making one too! That'll be exciting as it's easier to order that at my work than e.g. an ASUS one or what have you.

That's me! I'm that person! \o/

All that aside, I absolutely can't wait for desktops to decide to go the same route of having 4 memory channels instead of 2. Right now the only way to have >2 channels is to buy workstation/server class stuff or an APU.

BTW, careful with "channels". Todays normal desktops and laptops (besides the strix halo and apple pro/max/ultra) are 128 bits wide. But in the DDR4 -> DDR5 transition they doubled the number of channels to 4. However the strix halo biggest advantage is the extra memory bandwidth going from 128 bits wide to 256 bits wide.

Finally the technology of the ps5 and XboxX comes to laptops, tablets, and small desktops.

This is also being seen in the X3D CPU's where the memory is stacked on top to reduce latency and as density was maxed in 2d space.

It’s also not that absurd pricing of the modules themselves but of the R&D effort to cram 4 CAMMs onto a board with sufficient signal integrity

So to ensure 256 bits @ 8000 MHz works well AMD did it in the same package. In theory they could A) ship a halo without ram B) design a new socket, C) allow motherboard makers to pick 2 x CUDIMMs or 4x DDR5 dimms. Not sure that would buy them much market though.

As apple and others have proved, not many care about replaceable dimms, especially if it gives them 2-3x the performance and/or better perf/watt.

Consider it a low-price alternative to mac mini or nvidia’s box.

This can also be chained though not as effectively as macs for example (those have thunderbolt for interconnect)

This starts at 1099$ per the article, so the mac mini is the low-price alternative here.

Select 32

It's not exactly an out of the park win though as it's only $100-$200 cheaper and it trends poorly the farther from comparing base models you go (particularly after 64 GB, for which you need to leave the Mini family for the Studio). By the time you get to 128 GB, which you'd want for the 70B class AI models, you end up back at the original statement.

However those are the base M4 chip and not the M4 Pro. You need the M4 Pro to get competitive in GPU compute numbers for a more like to like comparison. The M4 Pro mini comes out at $1800 with the 48GB option, or $2000 for 64GB. For the same price the Framework machine gets you 128GB.

Every large AI model is heavy memory bandwidth constrained to the point my 9800X3D (with the extra L3 cache) and 128 GB/s memory attached is only 60% utilized running a 32 GB model in CPU only mode (no NPU, iGPU, or GPU offload enabled). Really small AI models can start to be compute bound but, at that point, you don't really need the 32 GB of memory anymore and probably just want a normal GPU.

Also fully spec'd at 128gb is $2000, which only gets you a 64gb mac mini

If LPCAMM already can't keep up with requirements when it is barely even out, then my guess is it won't fare well going forward.

So 1 of 2 things is probably true:

AMD is not being completely truthful with their statements that LPCAMM wasn't able to work (maybe it was just more difficult/complicated than they were willing to do, but it could work or

latency/speed requirements have already outpaced what LPCAMM can provide and soldered ram is the future.

I really hope it's the former, but it wouldn't be the first time something like the second has occurred. Apparently cache also used to be a separate, swappable component before it became integrated into the die. RAM might end up going the same way.

I guess they'd claim it is only the MAX AMD procs which force soldered RAM, but since they could as well have used a non-MAX chip (and correspondingly reduce the price) this just shows how much of this is an arbitrary, and therefore questionable, decision from Framework rather than any restriction AMD sets.

The form factor isn't small enough to make this worth it IMO

This product is for me.

A few years ago I tried to repurpose a desktop with a bad motherboard, but it was impossible to find a replacement for the 7-year-old CPU. eBay prices were more than the original MSRP, and at that point it was cheaper to buy new parts for the oldest still-selling generation.

I'm already replacing everything except the SSD and GPU with every upgrade anyway, now it will just be the SSD but I can keep the case.

That 64gb OCed 3200 (maybe 3500) mHz DDR3 RAM for example, kept up with DDR4 speeds for most of that decade when I benchmarked every few years. Intel extreme processor, workstation motherboard, and GTX Titans also kept chugging along. I’ve been looking at some of the higher end DDR5 coming down the pipeline and those are also likely to be on the higher end of performance for a decade while the consumer parts catch up. The only problem is that the workstation motherboard market seems to have disappeared.

(This was a work computer for my consulting)

I’m on a 10500 based Lenovo thing at the moment.

My needs are not immense though.

I don't do much computing on the move, that my phone can't handle. But a desktop (that generally lasts twice as long as a laptop and costs half as much) is pretty interesting to me.

Also keep in mind that framework sold a small chassis compatible with their laptop boards, so if you upgrade your laptop main board you could rehost the old one in a small desktop chassis.

Seems like a natural expansion for framework and might well get them more customers and more sales per customer.

In SFF land?, maybe, but that's already a lot closer to laptops, which is where I expect this to loop back into regular Framework lineup

Nit: You can believe that story, but there's zero chance that at some point you didn't upgrade the case, motherboard, CPU and RAM possibly at the same time. If you replace 90% of what makes a computer, does it make sense to say you "never changed" it? At what point do you consider it "changed"?

This Framework desktop also lets you swap motherboard, CPU and RAM in one go, why does it not fit your definition?

That's why I said "you can believe your story" while I pointed out it's a very unlikely one.

The point of an analogy is to point out how our intuition tells us it's the same boat, despite having no parts in common with the initial boat.

As other comment mentioned, if you keep the sails and rebuild a new boat around it, no person in their right mind would feel that it's the same boat. It's very clearly a new boat, and the analogy breaks down.

It seems more like a way to launch a mini-desktop. They can later offer alternative mainboards that fit in that desktop (or anyother).

Yes, its a strange first product, but I think its mostly because they wanted to be early with releasing this AMD chip. Seems to me AMD was looking for partners to push this chip out for 'AI'.